Military academies serve no one, squander millions of tax dollars

My 2nd son is in AROTC and is at one of the most liberal campuses in the US (one of those that burned their own ROTC building down in protest years ago). He has had professors openly disparage the military while my son sat in class in his uniform. However, distasteful, this is a small percentage of the narrative in the US and even stronger overseas. Our young officers-in-training need to learn to deal with this along with all of the other skills they need to learn.

I actually enjoy it. Nothing like sitting somewhere, having something you know or like attacked, and just "take it." I like to think I'm relatively open minded. I have a certain way of looking at things, I think I'm usually right and if someone disagrees with me, he/she is likely wrong, BUT I know I'm wrong sometimes too... so I allow for that, and take a little more time when I consider issues. That doesn't mean I'm a free agent in thought, but I'm willing to discuss things. My classmates in graduate school said "You know, because you're a Democrat." I said "Oh you think so, eh?" It SHOCKED them that not only wasn't I a Democrat, not liberal, but I was actually VERY conservative.

In the middle of the Michael Brown madness, I had a old high school friend message me on Facebook.

"you know, you and I disagree on pretty much everything,but you are someone who's opinion I respect because you are on of the few people on either side who really considers every aspect and makes their own conclusion."

True, my conclusion is usually conservative, but I don't make decisions in a vacuum.

During my time at CGA I had a few fairly liberal professors (not many) and one of them we swore was a "pinko commie"..... eventually looking back, we decided she may have taken certain stances to generate discussions, but it was good, even nice, to hear from "the other side." It was good to hear the misguided (HAHA, i know....) opinions of others. Even if in your bones you know they're wrong.... even if they hate you for just the fact that you are....

And eventually you'll realize you won't convinse Fleming he's wrong, and you won't turn someone pro-choice or pro-life.... once you've realized that... and you're comfortable and confident in your position and understand (that doesn't mean agree with) another's position.... well then you've made it. But you don't get there without hearing the good, the bad and the ugly.
 
Military personnel assigned to the academies as professors don't have tenured, right? Only civilian professors.

Actually, the downside of tenure. :rolleyes:

After the first sentence, I knew it was Fleming. Ask yourself this . . . If USNA is so terrible, why is he still there?
 
Military personnel assigned to the academies as professors don't have tenured, right? Only civilian professors.

If USNA is like USCGA, there a "perminent commissioned teaching staff." Coast Guard officers can apply for PCTS (or is it just PCS... I forget). They essentially serve out the remainder of their officer careers as teaching staff... I don't know what the qualifications were, but I only remember commanders and captains in those positions. Their promotions top out at the O-6 paygrade.
 
Small%? How come there are fewer professors applauding the military in classes? The exceptions are the service adacamies and SMCs of course. Or professors who boo-boo Al Qaeda are accused of Islamophobia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
There is no intellectual diversity on campuses, especially in the social sciences and humanities disciplines. How are you gonna distorted the formulas in the STEM fields????


My 2nd son is in AROTC and is at one of the most liberal campuses in the US (one of those that burned their own ROTC building down in protest years ago). He has had professors openly disparage the military while my son sat in class in his uniform. However, distasteful, this is a small percentage of the narrative in the US and even stronger overseas. Our young officers-in-training need to learn to deal with this along with all of the other skills they need to learn.
 
Small%? How come there are fewer professors applauding the military in classes? The exceptions are the service adacamies and SMCs of course. Or professors who boo-boo Al Qaeda are accused of Islamophobia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
There is no intellectual diversity on campuses, especially in the social sciences and humanities disciplines. How are you gonna distorted the formulas in the STEM fields????

That was not my experience in my non-STEM grad school program at George Washington University. I found my fellow students and professors very accepting. Perhaps it helps when the classmates have seen a bit of the world (as opposed to the majority of "uninitiated" undergrads). My class was tolerant of all views, in my experience, even who people didn't agree.
 
I find the line he wrote below quite comical.

"Conservatives bash welfare and food stamps, but in fact the service academies are the most generous government giveaway going."

Here I thought my DS was required to serve at least 5 years Active duty after graduation from the Academy. I need to let him know they are just giving it to him!And what exactly do those on food stamps and welfare need to do to "Earn" their paycheck? They need to walk to the mailbox...

He should be very grateful he is working at a Service Academy who puts up with that. If I were to write an article like that about my employer I would be filing for unemployment before the end of the week....
 
Small%? How come there are fewer professors applauding the military in classes? The exceptions are the service adacamies and SMCs of course. Or professors who boo-boo Al Qaeda are accused of Islamophobia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
There is no intellectual diversity on campuses, especially in the social sciences and humanities disciplines. How are you gonna distorted the formulas in the STEM fields????


I dont understand your post.
 
So, let me get this straight. There are too many kids wanting to get into an institution they loathe being at? He can't get a seat on the admissions board. And. . . to add insult to injury, this poor guy who snubbed the "Ivies" is stuck teaching remedial English to football players? I'm crying into a bucket of tears.

I'm sure Vanderbilt is thanking their lucky stars that they passed on hiring this guy!
 
So, let me get this straight. There are too many kids wanting to get into an institution they loathe being at? He can't get a seat on the admissions board. And. . . to add insult to injury, this poor guy that snubbed the "Ivies" is stuck teaching remedial English to football players? I'm crying into a bucket of tears.

It reminds me of something I heard a passenger say on a cruise ship once, "The food is crappy and there's not enough of it".
+1 Amen!
 
Fleming. Enough said. Giveaway? No way with commitment to our country and one of the one percent. Thank God my daughter never had him. And he wrote it in Salon? Not a great news outlet.
 
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For those who are relatively new to these forums, you will find that Fleming tends to write (rewrite) the same inflamatory opinions every so often to keep his name in the media. Apparently, he likes the attention he gets.
 
Upon further reflection, here's the issue I have with Fleming. I'm all for intellectual and academic freedom. As an above poster succinctly stated, it's important for all students, including mids, to hear diverse ideas and to be able to defend their opinions in the face of challenge. However, Fleming isn't disagreeing with certain military decisions, either current or historical. He's not challenging the way the academies train midshipmen (or cadets). And, he's not offering well-considered alternatives or solutions.

Rather, he denigrates the very students he is paid to teach. He states mids "lack charisma." He states they are "hardly the best and brightest." He adds that "few students come for the classroom experience" and that "many are annoyed they have to go to class at all." Must be great to be one of his students knowing what he thinks of you.

And then he advocates for the dissolution of the institution that hired him, pays him, and gives him the intellectual freedom to make such statements. I can't quite imagine a tenured professor at Yale or Berkeley consistently denigrating its students or advocating that the school be abolished.

To Fleming, intellectual/academic freedom apparently means a series of unsubstantiated, inflammatory opinions masquerading as fact.

For some, it is clearly preferable to be a pariah than an unknown.
 
I'm a lowly 2/C Midshipmen, have read many of Fleming's articles, and have never had him as a teacher. I have heard differing opinions about him, but his ratemyprofessor.com score is a 4.0 out of 5.0, which is very good, and shows me he is good at what he does. One kid told me he's the best professor they've ever had... and that kid went to NAPS, which many of you know has been publicly bashed by Fleming.

I have no opinion on his article. I can't argue against it, because I don't know if the Academies are really worth the money. Why pay $4 for a name brand when you can pay $1 for a generic brand at the grocery store? It's only worth the money if the name brand is actually better... So when I get to the fleet I guess I'll see whether Academy graduates are actually better than other officers.

However, I don't understand people on here ranting about what a horrible person/professor Fleming is. Don't use ad hominem arguments, argue the point. Is the Naval Academy Forum really a good place to come to an unbiased conclusion on whether or not the Academies are worth the $$?

Fleming makes good points. A lot of them. They should be given credit. He didn't cite sources, so if you want to argue against his points, cite your own, and make a better argument. Sorry for the rant, but I want to be convinced that he's wrong, rather than be convinced this forum is the conservative version of UC Berkeley.
 
Fleming tends to write inflammatory/opinionated op/ed pieces to keep his name in the media spotlight. People new to this forum may not realize that. That is the main point most who have been around are making. Attempting to refute point by point his circular arguments only serves to further his agenda.
 
My issue with Fleming's article is the inaccuracies and the attempt to paint broad strokes against all service academies. He spares Merchant Marine, but it makes me think he doesn't even know it exists. He clearly did not know that the Coast Guard does not offer ROTC. He has experience with the Naval Academy and perhaps should have limited his opinions to that institution only?

balloonattack911 may be only a lowly 2/C Midshipmen, but I am merely a parent, even lower on the evolutionary scale. Fleming managed to insult me directly. From his article... "Oh, yes—there’s one more group of people who defend these places to the death: the parents of the young military members who attend them. Why wouldn’t they? Having their children admitted is a government-sponsored guarantee of a golden ticket to life: college at taxpayer expense with no student debts, the highest salary of any set of graduates, and guaranteed employment and (no-Obamacare-necessary) health benefits for at least five years, frequently well beyond. And no, most people in the military aren’t remotely likely to be shot at."

There is no golden ticket and to suggest that a commitment to a service academy does not come with great sacrifice and commitment is absurd. Limited summer breaks, squaring meals, inspections, PT, incentive training, discipline, no TV, limited sleep, etc... What parent would wish this for their child? Their are a select few that want and choose this path and we are all better off because of it. Highest salary for graduates? This is bunk. If my son where to attend Carnegie Mellon for engineering his salary would likely be in far excess of what he will be paid as an O-1. I know that folks will try to inflate military pay with BAH and paid health care, but base salary, bonus and matching 401K for the best and brightest in the private sector will prevail. Yes, I said it. I know my son's SAT scores and list of accomplishments and he has been humbled by the exploits of many of his classmates. Fleming is way off base knocking these young future leaders.

To suggest that people in the military aren't remotely likely to be shot at is almost too ridiculous to comment on. Again. I fear that Mr. Fleming is unaware of the missions and challenges of all the branches of this nation's services.

balloonattack911 asks, "Why pay $4 for a name brand when you can pay $1 for a generic brand at the grocery store?" A generic is just a replica for the original. It is often a cheap knockoff for those that can't afford the real McCoy. Then again, nobody creates a generic unless there is a great demand and reverence for the original. People only tried generic peanut butter because they were so impressed by the original Jiff, Skippy or Peter Pan brand. If we did away with these brands because we felt the generic was a suitable replacement what would happen? Eventually you would get a generic of the generic. Soon, you are producing something very far from the original. I't won't really be peanut butter.

I'm not even sure how real the costs that are banted about are factual. It seems as though the academies want potential students and parents to think that the value of these schools is to such an extent that they'd be foolish to forgo the opportunity and attend another college. Either way, it appears to me that SMC's do a good job at offering a kind of first level "generic" substitute to the service academies and then ROTC programs across the nation's colleges offer a next level of opportunity. Where is their mandate coming from? What do they model their curriculum after?

My fear is that ECPI, ITT or University of Phoenix Online gets into the service academy business. Just what we need. Become an officer in as little as 8 weeks online in the privacy of your own home. How about our bachelors to Admiral program? Just 32 weeks and two 1/2 day visits to one of our convenient testing centers near you! Sign up with a group of 25 or more and receive deep discounts and graduate with your very own platoon. CALL NOW.
 
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