Full Metal Bulldog
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Alright, I'm about to throw down the gauntlet 
military pay?
- Thread starter infantry17
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Christcorp
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Mind you; when I mentioned certain military skills, I said you MIGHT have a harder time. Compared to other skills in transitioning to the civilian world. I think the #1 most important thing is; "You truly enjoy the job that you're doing; and thus the education you received to do that job". Even the infantry soldier in the army can find a job in the civilian world. Even making real good money. But it depends on the skills you picked up and how you market yourself. But it is probably easier for the high skill career field like in the sciences, technology, engineering, etc...
I've interviewed a lot of people for jobs. Including a lot of ex-military. The biggest problem I've seen with their resumes, is they don't understand the difference between their JOB and their SKILLS. People don't realize that whether they currently work in retail or at AT&T, they probably have a lot of SKILLS they learned over time. e.g. Computer skills; financial/budgeting; supervision; managing assets; etc... In my case, while I was an electronic tech/eng, I learned all those other things I mentioned above; along with learning how to drive fork lifts, tractor trailer trucks, learned welding, plumbing, carpentry, etc... Some of these skills were learned directly on the job. Some were learned while I was deployed to the sand box "Helping others who were short handed". Some skills were learned because of finances. "I couldn't afford to pay someone to fix/tune up my car, so I learned to do it myself".
Your JOB/AFSC/MOS/etc... can help you get into the proper "INDUSTRY". Your "SKILLS" will actually help you get "THE JOB". And your education needs to have significance. I have nothing against a degree in English, History, Liberal or even Fine arts, etc... But you have to look down the road long term and decide if that degree is going to be of use to you. The hardest ones I see are those going for pilot in the air force. Unless you want to be an test pilot or volunteer for NASA, an air force pilot can have a degree from the academy in ANY FIELD. English, History, Beha. Science, Engineering, etc... It doesn't matter. Now; if this individual makes it through pilot training, doesn't wash out, and can get a job as a pilot when they leave the military..... then no problem. What if they don't make it through pilot training or when they get out of the military they don't want to fly any longer. With that History, english, or military studies type degree help you get a job??? It might. Maybe you want to be a school teacher. Maybe a researcher. Maybe a historian. Maybe a Radio DJ. There's plenty of jobs. But in the officer ranks, where there's not as many "Hands On" type jobs; you need to aware of what you will need to be marketable when you get out. Fortunately for officers, if you stay past the 8-10 year mark, you pretty much have to have your master's done. That gave you time in case you got a non-usefull undergrad defgree, to make up for it at grad school.
I've interviewed a lot of people for jobs. Including a lot of ex-military. The biggest problem I've seen with their resumes, is they don't understand the difference between their JOB and their SKILLS. People don't realize that whether they currently work in retail or at AT&T, they probably have a lot of SKILLS they learned over time. e.g. Computer skills; financial/budgeting; supervision; managing assets; etc... In my case, while I was an electronic tech/eng, I learned all those other things I mentioned above; along with learning how to drive fork lifts, tractor trailer trucks, learned welding, plumbing, carpentry, etc... Some of these skills were learned directly on the job. Some were learned while I was deployed to the sand box "Helping others who were short handed". Some skills were learned because of finances. "I couldn't afford to pay someone to fix/tune up my car, so I learned to do it myself".
Your JOB/AFSC/MOS/etc... can help you get into the proper "INDUSTRY". Your "SKILLS" will actually help you get "THE JOB". And your education needs to have significance. I have nothing against a degree in English, History, Liberal or even Fine arts, etc... But you have to look down the road long term and decide if that degree is going to be of use to you. The hardest ones I see are those going for pilot in the air force. Unless you want to be an test pilot or volunteer for NASA, an air force pilot can have a degree from the academy in ANY FIELD. English, History, Beha. Science, Engineering, etc... It doesn't matter. Now; if this individual makes it through pilot training, doesn't wash out, and can get a job as a pilot when they leave the military..... then no problem. What if they don't make it through pilot training or when they get out of the military they don't want to fly any longer. With that History, english, or military studies type degree help you get a job??? It might. Maybe you want to be a school teacher. Maybe a researcher. Maybe a historian. Maybe a Radio DJ. There's plenty of jobs. But in the officer ranks, where there's not as many "Hands On" type jobs; you need to aware of what you will need to be marketable when you get out. Fortunately for officers, if you stay past the 8-10 year mark, you pretty much have to have your master's done. That gave you time in case you got a non-usefull undergrad defgree, to make up for it at grad school.
Seavoyager
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Great comments across the board! Having jumped ship from being a JO to the private sector myself, I can tell you that most JOs have a huge misunderstanding on how their pay compares to the general public.
Just one example: I actually had a classmate call me recently explaining how he "can't wait to get out and make a real paycheck". This classmate is stationed in San Diego and was recently promoted to LTJG. After taxes, he is looking at close to $2800 for every paycheck.
Just for comparison, a competitive entry level salary starting out is right at $60K-$65K (on the high end). After taxes (in California), that pay is less than what you would see as an Ensign. To see similar pay to a LTJG on the civilian side in California, you will need a much higher salary (ball park $100K), simply because of taxes.
I'm not sure what my classmate's definition of good pay is, but unless you are in consulting, legal, engineering, medical or finance etc., chances of making $100K at 25 are quite slim. The classmate is also a SWO, expecting to walk into the private sector and make 6 figures after his commitment (without heading back to school). And as a full LT getting out receiving LT pay, I’d say he is in for a rude awakening with the tax man!
Just one example: I actually had a classmate call me recently explaining how he "can't wait to get out and make a real paycheck". This classmate is stationed in San Diego and was recently promoted to LTJG. After taxes, he is looking at close to $2800 for every paycheck.
Just for comparison, a competitive entry level salary starting out is right at $60K-$65K (on the high end). After taxes (in California), that pay is less than what you would see as an Ensign. To see similar pay to a LTJG on the civilian side in California, you will need a much higher salary (ball park $100K), simply because of taxes.
I'm not sure what my classmate's definition of good pay is, but unless you are in consulting, legal, engineering, medical or finance etc., chances of making $100K at 25 are quite slim. The classmate is also a SWO, expecting to walk into the private sector and make 6 figures after his commitment (without heading back to school). And as a full LT getting out receiving LT pay, I’d say he is in for a rude awakening with the tax man!
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So your buddy is seeing $5,600 a month as a LTJG? Yeah, he won't see that with $100,000 salary, at least, not where I live (of course, beyond federal, state and county taxes, I'm also paying into a 401(k) and health insurance for two). Maryland's bad, but I'm guessing California is worse.
"but unless you are in consulting, legal, engineering, medical or finance"
I'm going to bust a little bubble here, now. The chances of pulling $100K at 25 as a consultant are very low. I know people assume consultants make bank, and some senior consultants probably do, but remember that the contract is not indicative of the salary. In fact many firms staff with lower salaried employees but higher billing because it allows the firms to shave more off. Also, not sure about the others at 25, even medical (remember, you still need to go to medical school for that). Finance is hit or miss, accountants aren't brokers aren't investment bankers. And what we read about more and more, there are far more lawyers than lawyer positions out there (the same is true of MBAs).
There's this idea in D.C. (by feds usually, with no private sector experience) that contractors and consultants make a KILLING. It's true, firms bring in some big $$ (because people pay them), but that isn't cut equally across the individuals on an account. Not even close!
Top that off.... he's a SWO? What transferable skill does he have for anything outside of leadership positions (by the way, the private sector also develops leaders) and POSSIBLY driving a boat (but not with a license.)
"but unless you are in consulting, legal, engineering, medical or finance"
I'm going to bust a little bubble here, now. The chances of pulling $100K at 25 as a consultant are very low. I know people assume consultants make bank, and some senior consultants probably do, but remember that the contract is not indicative of the salary. In fact many firms staff with lower salaried employees but higher billing because it allows the firms to shave more off. Also, not sure about the others at 25, even medical (remember, you still need to go to medical school for that). Finance is hit or miss, accountants aren't brokers aren't investment bankers. And what we read about more and more, there are far more lawyers than lawyer positions out there (the same is true of MBAs).
There's this idea in D.C. (by feds usually, with no private sector experience) that contractors and consultants make a KILLING. It's true, firms bring in some big $$ (because people pay them), but that isn't cut equally across the individuals on an account. Not even close!
Top that off.... he's a SWO? What transferable skill does he have for anything outside of leadership positions (by the way, the private sector also develops leaders) and POSSIBLY driving a boat (but not with a license.)
The Healthcare part of the free services gets more important as each year goes by. I track healthcare premiums as a small component of my job in Insurance. They have averaged 12% increase each year for the past ten years, for the same level of service.
Our large company pays for 75% of the health insurance for its employees. Most small companies don't. A PPO 80/20 insurance plan with about $1,500 deductible costs about $5,000 these days for one person, so that's what the Healthcare benefit to an enlisted serviceperson is worth. That's a lot. A family of four+ PPO with $1,500 deductible and 80/20 is about $17,000 this year. And keep going up. The recently filed rates in CA under Obama's Affordable Health Care plan also show a family of four with $1,500 deductible and 80/20 to be $17,500. As long as doctors make mistakes, and patients sue them for those mistakes, and as long as medical equipment keeps costing millions of dollars, healthcare premiums will keep going up. When the Gov't pays for a serviceperson's healthcare, that's worth a lot more than most realize.
Our large company pays for 75% of the health insurance for its employees. Most small companies don't. A PPO 80/20 insurance plan with about $1,500 deductible costs about $5,000 these days for one person, so that's what the Healthcare benefit to an enlisted serviceperson is worth. That's a lot. A family of four+ PPO with $1,500 deductible and 80/20 is about $17,000 this year. And keep going up. The recently filed rates in CA under Obama's Affordable Health Care plan also show a family of four with $1,500 deductible and 80/20 to be $17,500. As long as doctors make mistakes, and patients sue them for those mistakes, and as long as medical equipment keeps costing millions of dollars, healthcare premiums will keep going up. When the Gov't pays for a serviceperson's healthcare, that's worth a lot more than most realize.
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Yep! even the most clueless don't expect a half million $
. But an awful lot think that they should be getting > $100k up to $150k when they get out. Reality is as LITS and Seavoyager point out - something of a real blast of cold water. Outside Boston- I'm hiring Mechanical Engineers with around 3 years experience right now for about $72k plus 15% bonus opportunity - of which they realistically will get about 10-12% . If they have about 7-10 years experience and an MBA or Masters in ME or Industrial Engineering, then they may be getting another $10k-15k and in a 35% bonus plan. Beyond that- they are competing hard to get promoted to a base salary of >$100k and >35% bonus. The money tree isn't nearly as lucrative as is often thought by youngsters in the service dreaming of "life on the outside". And medical is expensive, as are State taxes and housing. So- while there are strains in the military that aren't in the civilian economy and make comparisons a little tenuous, - (like going to Afghanistan for 15 months, 6 month trips to the Persian Gulf etc...) but still in my opinion the military pay scale isn't really out of synch with the rest of the country.
Seavoyager
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Lits: Spot on, in every aspect! Like I said, the chances of a 25 yr old making >$100K is very slim. Consulting firms (Bain, McKinsey etc.) do hire MBAs out of Harvard and other Ivys with starting pay around $120K - $140K. So assuming you graduate undergrad at 22/23 and go right into an MBA, your looking at age 25/26 starting out.
California is worse than Maryland for taxes (in fact it is the worst state), and "my buddy" just bought a house in San Diego too, so its safe to say he'll be staying in Cali for the long haul. If he doesn't go back to school after getting out, it will be difficult for him to get a competitive salary to what he will be making as a LT, even with strong connections.
California is worse than Maryland for taxes (in fact it is the worst state), and "my buddy" just bought a house in San Diego too, so its safe to say he'll be staying in Cali for the long haul. If he doesn't go back to school after getting out, it will be difficult for him to get a competitive salary to what he will be making as a LT, even with strong connections.
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I see, so you weren't talking about your Navy friend at 25 (I was trying to figure out how he's doing all this and getting out of the Navt by his 25th birthday).
Oh, don't ask me what I think about consultants.... but yeah, if you're naming the higher end firms, you're looking at a bigger pot of gold.
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It's actively impacting the job market for many as well. My eldest just graduated with a Bachelors science degree, and is competing with 50yo with masters & 20 years of experience for entry level jobs. One internship for an entry level parttime position have over 70 candidates, most of which had masters & several years of experience. For an internship, not even a real job!!!
It's very clear that the reason the overqualified are chasing the entry level jobs is to get subsidized benefits.... very willing to compromise pay to do so. Especially noticeable if it's a public sector (Fed, State, etc) position.
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That's probably true, but employers also like stability... not something you always get with a benefits seeking 50 year old with bad knees and a poor imune system! I KEEED I KEEEED.
My two cents about getting a MBA. Yes, graduating from a top business school, just online MBA, will get you a job a big consulting firm with $100K + salary. I don't know if Business schools have changed too muich, but they usually require 2 to 3 years of job experience, so more like 25/26 + 2 or 27/28 starting out and mind your top business schools charge about $50K or more aa year, so you could easily cost at least $100K. Post GI bill could cover most of it, but there are unwritten quotas as business schools want diverse background. So there is a finite number of JMOs that a top business school will accept and now their undergrad accomplishment count. How many junior military officers are applying to a top business school with combat leadership experience? Better have good undergrad background as more than likely there are many JMOs with combat leadership experience applying to top business schools.
Full Metal Bulldog
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My 2 cents, I'm surprised more officers don't consider becoming academic gods in their respective disciplines and become college professors. Of course, this would be more lucrative and appealing to LA majors such as I (heck, I'd think even teaching high school would be pretty fun), but from what I've seen, college professors don't make a bad living, especially UFC they're retired military and are receiving a pension. Albeit, my perspective is that of a bumpkin for the most part. All this talk of investment and consulting firms is like very foreign to me. We grow oranges where I'm from. And raise cattle.
We grow oranges where I'm from. And raise cattle. Seavoyager
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Lits: Yeah, I was speaking about the average 25 yr old in that context. My buddy won’t be out till age 28/29. And, I have to ask now, because I'm currently in consulting (Finance)!
To give a little background: I was in pilot training for a year before the Navy dropped my API class because of a "Navy Reduction in Force". A 0-5 gathered us in a room, asked for 2 volunteers to switch to supply corp., and then issued the rest of us all pink slips. From there, I was placed into the IRR community (talk about the needs of the Navy). It took about 6 months before I landed my current job (I honestly thought it would be easier coming from an academy with an engineering degree (3.2 gpa)..…nope!.
The issue of pay came up when I was catching up with my navy friend (“My buddy”) recently. My buddy and I are both 25 now, so I was comparing what he currently thinks is awful pay ($5600/month) to a typical 25 yr old.
MemberLG: Definitely some truth to your statement. I think the 2-3 yr work experience requirement is the norm, but there are certainly exceptions the admissions board makes. No joke about the cost you mentioned either!
To give a little background: I was in pilot training for a year before the Navy dropped my API class because of a "Navy Reduction in Force". A 0-5 gathered us in a room, asked for 2 volunteers to switch to supply corp., and then issued the rest of us all pink slips. From there, I was placed into the IRR community (talk about the needs of the Navy). It took about 6 months before I landed my current job (I honestly thought it would be easier coming from an academy with an engineering degree (3.2 gpa)..…nope!.
The issue of pay came up when I was catching up with my navy friend (“My buddy”) recently. My buddy and I are both 25 now, so I was comparing what he currently thinks is awful pay ($5600/month) to a typical 25 yr old.
MemberLG: Definitely some truth to your statement. I think the 2-3 yr work experience requirement is the norm, but there are certainly exceptions the admissions board makes. No joke about the cost you mentioned either!
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My 2 cents, I'm surprised more officers don't consider becoming academic gods in their respective disciplines and become college professors. Of course, this would be more lucrative and appealing to LA majors such as I (heck, I'd think even teaching high school would be pretty fun), but from what I've seen, college professors don't make a bad living, especially UFC they're retired military and are receiving a pension. Albeit, my perspective is that of a bumpkin for the most part. All this talk of investment and consulting firms is like very foreign to me.
It's funny you should mention teaching. I applied to several traditional and online universities to teach in my off time (I have degrees in sociology, social work, information technology, and psychology). They barely raised an eyebrow at my transcripts. However when they saw my CV and that I was an active duty service member, my phone and email started blowing up.
I guess colleges are making a huge push to enroll and hire vets. Colleges are trying to get on GI Jobs: Military Friendly Colleges list. It's a learning process; I haven't been hired yet, but I'm starting to see some civilian institutions are valuing the military status over academic credentials.
I meant not online MBA
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Please debunk this for me. Is there any credence to the notion that combat support, service support branches, in the Army, offer more skills that are marketable to officers when compared to the combat arms when you are trying to transfer to the private sector? If everything works out, I don't mind making the Army a career, but I still want to be prepared, especially since I have a soft major and the talk I always get about me not having a "real major" (I'm working on a comparative politics, poly sci major) scares me! I guess I should just get a more technical or business grad degree?