More changes for the new APFT

12 mile is long, but again, what is the mission of ROTC? To train future officers.

When in combat, which is what in part this training is for, they will not be able to say, I walked 12 miles today, let's run tomorrow or at least give me an hour to rest!

No, that is not combat, they not only ruck it for miles, but might have to run it while rucking it for hours and hours.

It could be the difference between life and death. It could be the difference in your ability to serve.

I am a little shocked at this, because IMPO I believe the Army is probably the most physically fit, after the Marines. However, it seems like many are opposed to this.
 
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Pima said:
I think most people would agree with Scout. The Army has their needs to fulfill their mission.

What I find interesting about this is that people are saying it might be a way to RIF or loss of personal time. Those were not my 1st thoughts. My 1st thought was after yrs of deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan may have seen that the troops were not fit enough with the current program.

I give the Army the benefit of the doubt that there was no dubious intent, their intent is to protect every AD member. A weak link hurts the entire chain. They are protecting your child by doing everything possible that in the battle field everyone is fit.

Ask yourself if the bad happens to your child or yourself, wouldn't you now want that higher standard? If the answer is yes, than you will have no problem meeting the stds.
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I agree. Guess I just feel a little bad for those kids who need their Saturdays for study or jobs. :frown: Of course if they're screwing around and partying then by all means they ought to get rucking. As you point out their lives and the mission may depend on it
 
Yes, some do have jobs, and I get where you are coming from, but the fact is they are not going to do this every weekend, and on campus jobs understand commitments.

Our DD is not ROTC, and she has a job(spending money), but because she is in a sorority, and for the sorority to maintain their chapter with the national, they must do X amt of charitable hrs. She works every Sunday 9-1, and it never been an issue, because when they hired her, they know that she had other commitments.

I am not trying to place ROTC on the level of sororities, I am only emphasizing that employers are cognizant and are flexible when they are given fair warning of scheduling conflicts.

For me that is why the Sat is not a biggie, it will not be as if they knock on their doors at 5 a.m. Sat. and say "let's go". It is planned in advance.

Again, not trying to equate this to the PT issue, but my position from the Sat. issue, and your position of work. At our DS's college, every AFROTC cadet is mandated to do "clean up" @ 2x a semester. He attends an ACC college, and clean up is cleaning up the football stadium on Sunday, reporting at 7 a.m. and ending @ 1. This is not voluntary, it is mandatory. Just like it is mandatory when they do the Susan G Komen run.

Stinks for sure, and I bet not one cadet in his det thought they would be cleaning a football stadium as a cadet, but there you go.

I agree with Scout. Don't complain, if you don't want to do this LEAVE! If you can't handle AROTC, I suggest you go to an SA for a week during BEAST! Your attitude will do 180 and be thankful that this is only quarterly.

You take the stipend, you lose that voice. You agreed to live by their requirements.
 
You are all overlooking a key point.

The PT test is a semi-annual requirement. Divisional, Corps, and, FORSCOM training guidance (350-1) requires that a 12-mile ruck march at the 15-minute standard pace be conducted either quarterly (XVIIIth Airborne Corps units) or semi-annually. Thus, at worst, the new test would require only one additional ruck march per year. For most units, they can knock out two birds with one stone.
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Even we USAF types assigned to XVIII Airborne units had to meet whatever the Army (or 101st or 82nd) standard was. I remember having to do a 15 mile ruck at Air Assault School in 1980 in 4.5 hours.

It was tougher than Jump School at Benning and I had just gone through that in the old 44th Co which was pretty miserable wearing the old USAF blue nametapes - you could see us a mile off and we SUFFERED for them :shake: Not one of us quit though...

From an old timer - this new requirement doesn't seem too earthshaking.

Best
 
I will be interested to see what they do about the 1.5 vs. the 2 mile run for the new APFT. Currently, we only have 3 events, and they are thinking of upping it to 5 events. Based on what the article said, "Results proved the new test was harder than the current one but not exactly a smoker." It gets me thinking as to if they should just add in the dead hang pull ups on top of the pushups, which will up the testing to 6 events. Or if they should just do the pushups for 2 min and the rowers for 2 min... IMPO I feel as though they should up the length of the pushups/rowers as it does separate the fitness gaps and keep the 1.5 mile run as they are already completing 4 events prior to that and scientifically it "is arguably the best measure for cardiovascular fitness."
 
Pima said:
Yes, some do have jobs, and I get where you are coming from, but the fact is they are not going to do this every weekend, and on campus jobs understand commitments.
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Minor point which doesn't affect the outcome of the discussion and maybe it only applies to a small minority of students; however, not all jobs are on campus. DS is working part-time for an internet retailer packing stuff for mailing. Several NROTC midshipmen work for this same employer. Not sure how the employer would feel losing several employees one Saturday a month. Obviously it depends on the employer and the total number of employees. If the employer can plan to cover with others then I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue. But if not, it could become a problem. Of course none of this applies to my NROTC example anyway but I'd like to think there are other off campus employers trying to help out these kids who want to serve. But then they'd probably do everything possible to accomodate the one Saturday a month.

But like I already said, if you want to commission you do the ruck. 'nuf said. I'm done beating this dead horse! :biggrin:
 
There was one thing that wasn't very clear in the article the OP posted.

Let me start by admitting that I am not sure exactly what the new Fitness tests were to be called so if have have them wrong I am sure someone will correct me.

There were going to be 2 new tests, one was going to replace the standard APFT and the other was going to be a "Combat Readiness Test" What is not clear is which test is the 4 mile run and 12 mile Ruck included. If the new run and ruck are part of the CRT then it won't be administered monthly. The CRT was going to be given separately from the APFT.

The one thing that seemed clear from the article is that it looks like it will be a while before they agree on a new test.

First the Army stated that they needed a quicker more agile soldier, leading them to shorten the run and PU and SU count. This was designed to give the soldiers a quicker burst of speed rather then the endurance they worked towards before. The Army then added the CRT to better prepare the soldiers for the type of combat situations that they have seen over the last 10 years.

The Army has been testing this new test for about 10 months. Now they are considering replacing the Push Ups with Pull Ups. Throw into the mix comments from the CSM and you have a whole new program to look at. There seems to be a lot of cooks in the kitchen with this issue and they all have a different view on how to bake the pie.

I have a feeling this will take some time to work out, there seems no lack in controversy in which way it should proceed.

PIMA,

A agree, I don't think the Army has a hidden agenda to use a new test to weed out soldiers, I do think it will be a byproduct of the test.

The current APFT has been around a long time, new scholarship awardees are given all the information on how to do the test, the proper form and requirements. Every year even with this information and at least 4 to 5 months min. to prepare, many cadets that show up on day one have a hard time passing the test. If they were to add the 4 mile run along with the 12 mile ruck (According to the article, to be completed within 4 hours) I believe you would see a much larger percentage failing the test. If the new cadet does not prepare prior to arriving it will be tough to build up to a level in which they could pass the first semester resulting in loss of scholarship.

There is an easy answer to the above, work out, Run..Run..Run. Come to school prepared, in the end the fault for failing the test will be cadets', not the Army.
 
Romad,

Bullet jumped with the 82nd for 2 yrs in 93. I agree with you. He also went to CGSC as an AF officer and had to meet their stds.

His Jump ALO slot with the 82nd was conditional on his ability to meet Army stds. When he went yrs later to CGSC at Leavenworth as an AF O4 he still had to meet Army stds.

Honestly, AF is the branch they call "banker" or "corporate". It is the branch that PT equates to playing golf without a cart! 5 yrs married to Bullet and he never did PT at O dark 30. 1st day in the Q's and he was doing PT. Did it for 2 yrs, went to Elmendorf, flew Strikes as an AF officer and PT for him was going to the indoor Pool. Selected PME at Leavenworth, and PT was daily again. Even as an AF officer he could not graduate unless he met the Army's requirements.

You and Bullet made it because you wanted it, the motivation may be different, but the goal is not. Same with ROTC cadets. You want it you will do it.

Sorry, but if we are being honest, I have yet to hear one sound defense of why this should not occur.
 
Bullet jumped with the 82nd for 2 yrs in 93. I agree with you. He also went to CGSC as an AF officer and had to meet their stds.
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I left in the late 80's and it was Det 1, 507th TAIRCW then - All the 130 types at Pope used to use the huge pair of Jump Wings painted on top of our old building as an approach aid :rolleyes: That place was fun to work in during the Sandhill's Summertime (still makes me sweat just thinking about it...). Ahh the good ol' days!

best :biggrin:
 
I have found this string interesting reading and appreciate all the opinions offered. But in the end, we all know that "change" is inevitable and a major part of life. Those candidates with the goal to succeed in any commissioning program will accept the challenges (whatever they are) and rise to them.

For me, any physical fitness test our military requires that allows running shoes, shorts, T-shirts, etc is essentially a compromise between testing physical readiness and efficiency of administration. These tests do not mimic combat or the difficult conditions we usually fight in. They do provide a measure of strength and conditioning but the real benefit is the ability to test many people under standardized conditions at the same time.

I am in favor of longer runs vs shorter runs in general but I am much more in favor of tests that somehow mimic combat conditions like buddy carries, sprints, sprints while carrying ammo cans, etc while wearing combat gear and carrying a weapon. I think many of the services have incorporated some type of "combat readiness" type of test into the assessment of its members. I think this is the right direction.

As a former Infantry Officer, I seem to remember that we were taught that a military unit should be expected to move at a 4 mph pace with full issue combat gear all day. I think the schedule was 4 mph with a 10 min break every 2 hours. I remember the standard for a full Battalion was a 25 mile hump in under 8 hours. This was required before deployment. (for all the old timers that read this don't flame me if I am off-base... its been awhile.)

My point is that a forced march is a good assessment of conditioning and 12 miles in 4 hours is not on the ragged edge of capability. The issue is one of timing. That is, ROTC or active duty units setting the time to do it. Individuals setting the time to train. I am sure an ROTC unit can knock out the PFT in an hour or 90 minutes. Individals can trail in 30 or 45 minutes. But for a unit to conduct this 12 mile hike, they need 5-6 hours. So the time required to conduct the test grows exponentially.

In the end, the military will settle on its standard of testing and everyone will fall in line. And just when we have it figured out... someone will change it!
 
No problem with long ruck marches 2x a year to qualify (either as AD or ROTC). Probably makes more sense as a measure of extended capacity to move than a 2 mile run. However, scoutpilot forgets that ROTC units do like to recruit varsity athletes to their units. They like being physically active, deal with pressure well, and usualy have superior leadership experience. ROTC already takes one weekend a term for FTX. Throw in another (or 2 for unit retests) and you start making it difficult to get those varsity athletes. Perhaps if they did the ruck testing as a part of FTX, you could avoid the additional scheduling issue.

Training for a ruck is still necessary in a unit, but I can remember my daughter telling me about ruck training for Ranger Chalenge with another cadet around campus on their own time. Perhaps this will change PT from fewer road runs to more ruck marches. Not necessarily a bad thing.
 
goaliedad said:
No problem with long ruck marches 2x a year to qualify (either as AD or ROTC). Probably makes more sense as a measure of extended capacity to move than a 2 mile run. However, scoutpilot forgets that ROTC units do like to recruit varsity athletes to their units. They like being physically active, deal with pressure well, and usualy have superior leadership experience. ROTC already takes one weekend a term for FTX. Throw in another (or 2 for unit retests) and you start making it difficult to get those varsity athletes. Perhaps if they did the ruck testing as a part of FTX, you could avoid the additional scheduling issue.
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ROTC does not need college athletes. Period. The same leadership ability and vital physical capacity is abundant in the vast pool of standout high school team captains and varsity athletes who do not compete at the college level.

Again...I don't care whether people like this idea or not. For one, it's a good one. No one in an AAR has ever said "you know, this would have gone a lot better if our soldiers had been less physically prepared."

Secondly, ROTC units, West Point, and every soldier is subject to the decisions of the CSA and SMA. If the PT test becomes Swim 6 miles and do the Hokey Pokey, that's what we'll do. End of story.

ROTC takes time. It takes commitment. Not nearly as much as a SA, but a large amount nonetheless. If it's too much....quit. If you can't be counted on to give a solid effort on a few Saturdays for whatever ROTC asks of you, I know you won't give me jack squat for effort on hour 21 of a duty day in February in Afghanistan. It's little to trade for a free college education.
 
scoutpilot said:
ROTC does not need college athletes. Period. The same leadership ability and vital physical capacity is abundant in the vast pool of standout high school team captains and varsity athletes who do not compete at the college level.

Again...I don't care whether people like this idea or not. For one, it's a good one. No one in an AAR has ever said "you know, this would have gone a lot better if our soldiers had been less physically prepared."

Secondly, ROTC units, West Point, and every soldier is subject to the decisions of the CSA and SMA. If the PT test becomes Swim 6 miles and do the Hokey Pokey, that's what we'll do. End of story.

ROTC takes time. It takes commitment. Not nearly as much as a SA, but a large amount nonetheless. If it's too much....quit. If you can't be counted on to give a solid effort on a few Saturdays for whatever ROTC asks of you, I know you won't give me jack squat for effort on hour 21 of a duty day in February in Afghanistan. It's little to trade for a free college education.
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Can't argue with you at all, I'm sure the Army will adapt to whatever they decide.

The only thing I wanted to mention, I agree, a solid effort should be expected from all ROTC cadets. You are right, commitment is asking little in trade for a free education, however, a majority of ROTC cadets are not on scholarship and are not getting that free education, most scholarship cadets still have to pay either R&B or tuition. While I agree that both a SA and ROTC requires commitment, I don't think that one requires more then the other, the commitment is just different when it comes to school. For the 100% free education the SA cadets endure more then some ROTC cadets could handle. At the same time There are ROTC cadets receiving no educational funds at all, working 20 plus hours a week while attending school and ROTC, both of these cadets are showing a great deal of commitment, just in different ways.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that if you commit to ROTC then be prepared to do what is asked of you.
 
Secondly, ROTC units, West Point, and every soldier is subject to the decisions of the CSA and SMA. If the PT test becomes Swim 6 miles and do the Hokey Pokey, that's what we'll do. End of story.

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ScoutPilot's proposed APFT could result in a kindler, gentler, and probably more buoyant officer corps, but if these are the new uniforms, it could have an unintended deleterious consequence on morale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9vEcesi3H8
 
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