More Women than ever enter West Point

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by Just_A_Mom, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071004/ap_on_re_us/west_point_women

    More women than ever enter West Point
    By MICHAEL HILL, Associated Press WriterThu Oct 4, 7:41 AM ET


     
  2. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    I know I posted the above article - I would like to see it as inspirational for any young woman considering a military career.

    The problem is - it opens itself up to all sorts of condescending reactions and conclusions. These range from amazement that the "girls" can actually keep up with the guys to the "girls" are the reason for the sexualt assault "problem" in our Service Academies and cause scandal.....

    Just this morning on www.military.com is posted an idiotic 3 question poll in response to the Article:

    So folks, women at our service academies are supposed to elicit one of 3 responses - they cause us to marvel at their ability to keep up, they are the result of PC thinking and putting our national securtiy in jeopardy, or the CAUSE of sex scandals.....

    Is this freakin' unbelievable or what??????????
    Seriously, has nothing changed in 30 years? :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  3. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Stupid choices to chose from...

    While I am happy that more women are choosing the challenges of West Point, I am not going to stand up and applaud, either. I am one of those old-fashioned types who believe that the battlefield is the purview of men simply because women are too valuable to waste there.

    Flame on.
     
  4. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    If I were the Secretary of the Army, I would ban women from West Point. I spent a year in ground combat and do not believe it is a place for females. I also believe that it is a waste of money to train anything other than combat arms at a SA. Transportation, Logistics, MPs, etc can more effectively come from our civilian colleges.

    With that said, I feel that USAFA and USNA should accept all women who are qualified. The Navy can accomodate females very well on both ships and in aviation. And, in my experiences, they actually performed, as a whole, better than their male counterparts. Women never really made any inroads into the fighter community and are very under represented in the strike fighter community. I don't know if the fact that prior to SecNav Webb, they were prohibited from entering either of these career paths has caused this or perhaps something else. Soon after they were admitted, a female crashed, killing herself and her RIO, attempting to "manhandle" an F-14 on a landing approach. All the negative publicity surrounding that particular mishap may have turned off a lot of female prospects. The F-14 also was a ***** to fly compared to the F-18. The E-2/C-2 and Helo communities are well represented and several have achieved command. The females are also represented well in the surface community and do a great job. I would imagine it is the same for the AFA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2007
  5. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Zaphod - Traditionally, women have been spared combat from an anthropologic standpoint - continuation of the species. The number of offspring that men can beget is only limited by the number of fertile females -
    this argument is probably outdated however.
     
  6. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    USNA69 -
    Come on, seriously.... at least do your homework. Obviously, you know nothing of the Army.

    The mission of USMA:

    This says nothing of preparing officers solely to lead troops in ground combat. That training however, is not wasted on those who never see ground combat. Those lessons carry over to all officers leading all sorts of troops in all sorts of situations.

    The Army has 17 branches -16 of those are available to Academy grads (the Nurse Corps is not, for obvious reasons) - the vast majority of which do not involve ground combat.
    95% of all jobs in the Army are open to women. It is ridiculous to keep women out of USMA because a few jobs are not open to them by law.
    Using that logic - women should be banned from USNA since they are not allowed to go Subs.
     
  7. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    No it isn't. All women at USNA have opportunites, actually are required, to go unrestricted line. No women at all at WP are allowed to go combat arms.

    I am not against women at the SAs. I am against curriculi becoming to general, encompossing supporting career paths that can be just as easily taught in civilian schools. It is a survival instinct. Every 10-15 year, an administration will question the necessity of SAs and why ROTC cannot do the same job much cheaper. ROTC can teach the most of the ancillary career paths. The SAs must concentrate on operational combat issues. Not to do so, may be their demise.

    This is not limited to WP. Why should the AFA allow grads to fill technical career billets, such as computer technology, when they can have them attend a much better computer type college through the ROTC program?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2007
  8. sealion

    sealion Member

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    Of all the images that have come out of Iraq, one of the saddest that I've seen and remembered was a picture of a soldier in her mid-twenties hugging her two year old.

    She had hooks for hands. Her own hands were destroyed in an IED incident.

    The sadness of it defies rational explanation. It could have been a man in the photo but somehow it was worse because it was a mom.
     
  9. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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  10. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Whether it is outdated or not, it is still valid in my mind. In my opinion, it is a basic part of being a gentleman.

    REAL men dive between women and bullets. When ships go down, REAL men say "Women and children first!". I will stand by such beliefs until the day I die, no matter how "outdated" some may claim them to be, and I will make no apologies in the meantime.



    ...and we're just about due, aren't we? :frown:
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2007
  11. WAMom68

    WAMom68 Founding Member

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    With the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan there is no identifiable front line. Now we have cooks, truck divers, MPs, etc. being killed or wounded by IEDs and insurgent attacks. So, going with some of the arguments I see here, we shouldn’t have ANY women in the Army since they are at risk in non-combat postitions. :rolleyes:
     
  12. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    You are probably correct. However, there is a huge difference between incidential fire, IEDs, etc. and an offensive tactical infantry push into downtown Falluah.
     
  13. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    If that mandate came down from above tomorrow, I wouldn't slit my wrists over it.
     
  14. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Sexism reigns!!

    Zaphod - you will rue the day when one of your lovely daughters announces that she wants to join the Army (Navy, or any other male-dominated career).
    If you think they are too "girly" at their tender age - think again. It could happen to you. I will send you some pictures of my girly girl.

    In my own ancedotal, personal experience in the game of life - I have noticed through the years that men:

    1. who have only sons are least likely to support women in a male oriented career - especially when the career is perceived as dangerous.

    2. who have only daughters are more likely to support their daughters in a male-oriented (dangerous) career.

    I don't think it is because men with only daughters spend their parenthood wishing for sons but they see young women growing up as strong, independent young women unencumbered by male domination.
    (How is that for the amateur sociology lesson of the day?)


    About those pesky women in the Army - they have been there for generations and putting their lives at risk - think Army Nurses, treating the wounded and evactuating patients on the battlefield. This "career" choice seems perfectly acceptable - so what is the problem?

    Would having a female soldier leading a MP platoon and protecting your butt while you advance on a tank crush your male ego? If you were a parent of an enlisted soldier in that MP platoon wouldn't you want the very best officer leading your son/daughter?
    In any case, female soldiers are here to stay. They have the same desire and ability to serve, the Army needs them and our country needs them.
     
  15. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Yeah. Right. :rolleyes:

    It used to be that men were expected to work hard, provide for their families, and defend the homeland. Now, such beliefs are called "Sexism".

    THIS is evolution? :confused:

    I'll be happy to be called a sexist for my views, and I couldn't care less. There is a difference between believing that women shouldn't be in the Services for the reasons I've given, and actively preventing them from joining. Have you heard me take the latter position?

    I still open doors (including the car door) for ladies. I still wait until all other ladies at the table have sat down before I do. I still offer my seat to a standing woman. I've been called sexist for those, too.

    If being a gentleman and standing for the defense of women makes me a sexist in the modern age, then so be it. Just don't cry later when men begin treating women like garbage as a general rule.

    Oh, wait! They already have! Thank you, feminism! :rolleyes:

    My girls will be taught not to take crap from anyone, least of all men. OTOH, they WILL be taught to expect any man who wants to be near them to behave as a gentleman in the OLD tradition, and to look down on any man who doesn't.
     
  16. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Women have been doing this for generations.

    What is the difference?


    Changing the subject here- this has nothing to do with working along side the opposite sex. Would you "allow" a female attorney to defend you in a court of law? Would you open the door for her?

    Do you seriously believe that because women desire to have a career they give their implied permission for men to declare open season on them?? Good grief. If men like you, so desire to protect women - is that only on the condition that they stay home and behave themselves??

    Mine too. Teach them now Zap- you can never start too young.
     
  17. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    True, but only in the last generation have they told men they don't need to do it anymore. You can see the results throughout society, and none of them are good.


    One is an opinion and the other is an act.


    I have on both counts.


    Of course not. Don't put words in my mouth.

    However, I should not have to look to women to defend the homeland. The MEN should be standing up to do so, as they have done for thousands of years.

    The only condition I place on women is that they act the part. I once opened a door for a woman entering a mall in Virginia Beach. She snarled at me, "I am QUITE capable of opening my own doors!"

    "FINE!" I said, and slammed it in her face. :mad:

    Want equal rights? Be prepared to take equal heat.


    Already have, although I think the little one is already hard-wired that way from the manufacturer. :biggrin:
     
  18. WAMom68

    WAMom68 Founding Member

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    Zaphod and USNA69 - I respect your right to your opinion that women should not be in the Army, as I hope you will respect my right to disagree.

    The only thing sexist about your beliefs is if you believe that ONLY men can “work hard, provide for their families, and defend the homeland.” Even if I didn’t work a job outside my home I would still be working hard and providing for my family…not with a salary but with my skills as cook, laundress, cleaner, and all the other things stay-at-home women do.

    I like to have doors opened for me and all that but some women don’t like that. I believe they are also entitled to the right to ask that this not be done for them, but they should do it in a respectful manner. I don’t think being treated like a lady is sexist and I don’t understand women who do. I see it as a sign of respect just as I respect the man by saying “thank you” when he holds the door for me. I have seen my husband and my sons give up their seat or hold a door for a women and I have never seen them called sexist. A woman just better not do that in my presence or they will get an earful!

    Just think how much better we would get along if people were more courteous to each other.

    I hope that you will also teach them that they can be anything they want to be when they grow up and not to let anyone tell them that they can’t.
    ____________________
    I have no doubt that women should be in the Army and are fully capable of being excellent leaders, but I am torn about whether women should be allowed into combat units. My husband and I have talked about this several times and he is also against women in combat, but not against having them in the military. He clearly explained to me the protective instinct that men have to keep women from this role. He also brought up the issue of women being “built differently” and so being out in the mud in the same uniform for weeks might become a problem for a woman before it would become a problem for a man. I understand his reasoning and it makes sense, but I was brought up to believe that if a woman can physically and mentally do a job then her anatomy shouldn’t stop her from doing it.
     
  19. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    I lean much more toward combat than a blanket ban. I think a blanket ban would be a waste of resources. I just don't want to see women blown all over the battlefield.


    I never said that. I simply said that it's their job. The fact that society now seems to think it's OK for women to step into those roles is, to me, an indication that men have failed to do so.

    And you would deserve all the credit comensurate with those efforts. A LOT. Please don't think I either belittle that credit or limit you or anyone else to just those "homely" tasks.


    I bet that would be a sight to behold! :biggrin:


    Sister, you ain't kidding. I'm not perfect, but MAN I hate rude people! :mad:


    We're on the same page. :smile:

    It's not an easy topic for me to nail down, because the old-fashioned side of me wants to keep them safe from harm, but the modern side of me knows that if they can do it, why not let them?
     
  20. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    This has me in stitches - :shake:

    Know why??? I have one just like that - guess where she is???

    Oh Zaphod - my advice - when she is of that impressionable age of between 10-14 don't take her anywhere near USNA - haha ! She will be in awe and want to go there and you won't be able to stop her - but you would be a proud dad for sure! Then with your luck she will probably come out a Marine!
     

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