Need an education on RPA Pilots

[scoutpilot]

What types of missions do Air Force helicopters do?

Coast Guard....SAR and LE
Army.......Medevac, Special Forces, blowing S@#* up
Navy...... Mailship

No one's really sure...I don't think "getting in the way" is a real mission.

 

[raimius]

Combat Search and Rescue
Special Operations
ICBM base security
VIP transport

 

[hawk]

What types of missions do Air Force helicopters do?

For rusty memory I recall that USAF Helo's led the way in for Army copters in both Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom, and Iraqi Freedom.

Some old thing called PAVE LOW's and PAVE HAWKS's?

Not trying to defend the Air Force (especially after Saturday), but these are not insignificant roles, nor operational experience.

Add to that SAR in Europe (Bosnia timeframe) and Africa, etc.

 

[scoutpilot]

For rusty memory I recall that USAF Helo's led the way in for Army copters in both Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom, and Iraqi Freedom.

Some old thing called PAVE LOW's and PAVE HAWKS's?

Not trying to defend the Air Force (especially after Saturday), but these are not insignificant roles, nor operational experience.

Add to that SAR in Europe (Bosnia timeframe) and Africa, etc.

Uh, no. Not even close. Better luck next time.

I appreciate the use of the "rolleyes" icon. It really punctuated your completely erroneous statement well.

 

[flieger83]

SCOUT...

USAF Pave Low MH-53's led US Army AH-64's across the desert because they didn't have the navigational capability at the time...to strike the FIRST attack of Desert Storm.

The AH-64's destroyed the Iraqi integrated air defense/early warning command and control which opened a HUGE blind spot for the air armada to penetrate Iraqi airspace.

A beautiful example of the combined force!

And the rest is history.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[hawk]

Uh, no. Not even close. Better luck next time.

I appreciate the use of the "rolleyes" icon. It really punctuated your completely erroneous statement well.

So what did I get wrong?

A) that the Air Force SOC flew (Flies??) the MH-53 PAVE LOW?
B) That they also fly the PAVE HAWK? (A pretty capable aircraft as well)
C) That USAF SOC PAVE LOW's were the first US helicopters in country in both Desert Storm and the later Iraqi invasions?
D) That they flew overt and covert SAR during multiple engagements in Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and others since?? Not to mention their role in Panama.
E) That USAF SOC was the covert insertion method for many US and other special operations teams in Iraq, Panama, Kuwait, Serbia/Bosnia, A'stan, Africa, etc?
F) All of the above?

I'm just a dad of a cadet. You probably have forgotten more about choppers than I ever will. But with all respect, A-E all appear to be fairly well documented, in more than one place. Maybe it's just Air Force exaggeration, but they appear to have convinced lot's of others.

Task Force Normandy as the start of Desert Storm is extremely well documented and even the Army indicates the Appache's followed the Pave Lows into Iraq due to the terrain following radar and more accurate GPS. Yes, they did RTB per mission once the close to target and the Apache's had sync'd their nav to glow sticks left by the Pave Lows. And there is some documentation that Pave Low's were in country significantly before that in roles with SF and SAS.

I'm just curious at this point. The closest I got to a PAVE LOW is sitting in one and talking with it's crew about their combat experiences at an Air Show. I'm a private pilot and an RF Engineer, so I could relate to the electronics and their mission. PAVE HAWK sitting next to it was no slouch in that aspect either.

I guess I just don't get diss'ing a fairly well respected operational group with a long history of combat operations in partnership with the RA, even if it is in the Air Force. Or is there a dirty secret I missed? That it's actually Army chopper pilots in the USAF SOC?

If it's that the mission should sit in the Army, I'd agree, Heck, I think the Army should be flying the A-10 as well.

 

[scoutpilot]

So what did I get wrong?

A) that the Air Force SOC flew (Flies??) the MH-53 PAVE LOW?
B) That they also fly the PAVE HAWK? (A pretty capable aircraft as well)
C) That USAF SOC PAVE LOW's were the first US helicopters in country in both Desert Storm and the later Iraqi invasions?
D) That they flew overt and covert SAR during multiple engagements in Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and others since?? Not to mention their role in Panama.
E) That USAF SOC was the covert insertion method for many US and other special operations teams in Iraq, Panama, Kuwait, Serbia/Bosnia, A'stan, Africa, etc?
F) All of the above?

I'm just a dad of a cadet. You probably have forgotten more about choppers than I ever will. But with all respect, A-E all appear to be fairly well documented, in more than one place. Maybe it's just Air Force exaggeration, but they appear to have convinced lot's of others.

Task Force Normandy as the start of Desert Storm is extremely well documented and even the Army indicates the Appache's followed the Pave Lows into Iraq due to the terrain following radar and more accurate GPS. Yes, they did RTB per mission once the close to target and the Apache's had sync'd their nav to glow sticks left by the Pave Lows. And there is some documentation that Pave Low's were in country significantly before that in roles with SF and SAS.

I'm just curious at this point. The closest I got to a PAVE LOW is sitting in one and talking with it's crew about their combat experiences at an Air Show. I'm a private pilot and an RF Engineer, so I could relate to the electronics and their mission. PAVE HAWK sitting next to it was no slouch in that aspect either.

I guess I just don't get diss'ing a fairly well respected operational group with a long history of combat operations in partnership with the RA, even if it is in the Air Force. Or is there a dirty secret I missed? That it's actually Army chopper pilots in the USAF SOC?

If it's that the mission should sit in the Army, I'd agree, Heck, I think the Army should be flying the A-10 as well.

C and E. The Pave Lows were not the first helicopters into Iraq. Period. They led a flight of Apaches who opened a radar corridor, but that was not even close to being the first helicopter mission into Iraq.

No, Pave Lows are not the primary method of SOF insertion. Especially not Army SOF. There are units dedicated to that. Figure out how ODA 595 and 555 got into Afghanistan and you'll have it figured out.

Yes, Pave Lows led a flight of Apaches. No, they did not lead the first US helicopters into Iraq in 1990 or 2003 or Afghanistan.

 

[hawk]

C and E. The Pave Lows were not the first helicopters into Iraq. Period. They led a flight of Apaches who opened a radar corridor, but that was not even close to being the first helicopter mission into Iraq.

No, Pave Lows are not the primary method of SOF insertion. Especially not Army SOF. There are units dedicated to that. Figure out how ODA 595 and 555 got into Afghanistan and you'll have it figured out.

Yes, Pave Lows led a flight of Apaches. No, they did not lead the first US helicopters into Iraq in 1990 or 2003 or Afghanistan.

OK, if this is a Little Bird vs Pave Low debate I'll concede. Go Nightstalkers! You probably know more about both than I ever will due to your background.

The references I've seen list the Pave Low as the first helo entering Iraqi airspace on the first offensive combat mission. (Also described as the start of the "air war", "start of the war", etc). Yes, they were on a pathfinder mission, but they did lead the flight of Apache's, with the Apache's following them for several reasons. That's significant, and utilized their (at the time) unique capability. They have also been listed as the 1st coalition aircraft on Kuwait City Intl and the 1st coalition aicraft at U.S. embassy in Kuwait City

Likewise, I never said the Pave Lows were the primary insertion for SOF. I said they were used in many, and they were. Remember, there were other operational forces in early than just US Army SF. But accounts I've read indicated USAF Pave Lows were active with SF units in various roles in addition to any intrinsic capability.

Same for CSAR, based on multiple US Mil references, the Pave Low is on record as the first CSAR of the war.

Maybe all the documentation is wrong, maybe there were other strikes prior to Taskforce Normandy in desert shield/storm, it's not worth arguing.

But it's a bit disenginous to imply the USAF (warts and all) has no role in modern Helo military ops.

If you want to say the Army knows more about helo's than the USAF ever will, I won't argue. But dismiss the role & history of Pave Lows and Pave Hawks entirely?

 

[scoutpilot]

OK, if this is a Little Bird vs Pave Low debate I'll concede. Go Nightstalkers! You probably know more about both than I ever will due to your background.

The references I've seen list the Pave Low as the first helo entering Iraqi airspace on the first offensive combat mission. (Also described as the start of the "air war", "start of the war", etc). Yes, they were on a pathfinder mission, but they did lead the flight of Apache's, with the Apache's following them for several reasons. That's significant, and utilized their (at the time) unique capability. They have also been listed as the 1st coalition aircraft on Kuwait City Intl and the 1st coalition aicraft at U.S. embassy in Kuwait City

Likewise, I never said the Pave Lows were the primary insertion for SOF. I said they were used in many, and they were. Remember, there were other operational forces in early than just US Army SF. But accounts I've read indicated USAF Pave Lows were active with SF units in various roles in addition to any intrinsic capability.

Same for CSAR, based on multiple US Mil references, the Pave Low is on record as the first CSAR of the war.

Maybe all the documentation is wrong, maybe there were other strikes prior to Taskforce Normandy in desert shield/storm, it's not worth arguing.

But it's a bit disenginous to imply the USAF (warts and all) has no role in modern Helo military ops.

If you want to say the Army knows more about helo's than the USAF ever will, I won't argue. But dismiss the role & history of Pave Lows and Pave Hawks entirely?

You probably have better sources. We'll go with your version.

Back on track.

 

[hawk]

You probably have better sources. We'll go with your version.

Back on track.

Nah, I've already conceded to your experience and presumed sources. Just a dad here with an an mil aviation interest. In college way back I wanted to go ANG Aviation but vision ruled that out. Even would have signed up for OV-10's with the Marines had I been able to get a vision waiver with the local reserve outfit.

I guess most of the really interesting stuff SOAR (ARSOA??) did/does won't show up in books or websites for a long time. Most of what I've read/heard about involves their Chinooks.