New Cadet BBQ

Do you disagree?
The only part I disagree with is the unprovoked sniping at ROTC.
All ROTC units are not the same anymore than all USMA cadets are like the out of shape/poor attitute/lack of aptitude cadet being discussed in this thread.
 
The only part I disagree with is the unprovoked sniping at ROTC.
All ROTC units are not the same anymore than all USMA cadets are like the out of shape/poor attitute/lack of aptitude cadet being discussed in this thread.

He's just mad that my gold bar was shinier than his out of USMA.

Yeah we PT every day of the school week for four years but that's inconsequential as Army physical fitness is largely a joke anyway. If you aren't around at least 300 I just don't know what to say...
 
Sadly that really is the case in some small private college's programs. An acquaintance of mine at one says that land nav is only taught during MS3 pre-LDAC lab, and PT is only mandatory for the first 2 years.

I promise this is not the case at The Citadel, and therefore I trust all SMC's.

I assure that SMCs do not produce any better product out of ROTC. I have never seen more arrogant, ate up...I'll stop there..

Point is, ROTC is ROTC
 
He's just mad that my gold bar was shinier than his out of USMA.

Yeah we PT every day of the school week for four years but that's inconsequential as Army physical fitness is largely a joke anyway. If you aren't around at least 300 I just don't know what to say...

Maybe your stethoscope was, but your bar certainly wasn't. :wink:

You know it's true that the typical ROTC indoc amounts to pattycake. Sadly, it seems USMA has been trending that way.
 
Yes, I agree that a fraction of SMC grads are arrogant and overprided. But doesn't the same stigma arise for USMA grads? Essentially it's the same theory behind the behavior: going to a school which has that obscure, elite connotation of prestige from being a military academy, with challenges that only they and their classmates have endured. I agree to the statement that "Ring Knockers" come from federal academies and SMC's, as a matter of fact I've known Citadel grads to use the term to describe themselves, and I wouldn't be surprised if VMI and Norwich alumni (the older SMC'S with a more military focus/history than the others) did to.

Getting to the point, is ROTC just ROTC? Yes. But when the school is designed to run around the ROTC program, instead of vice versa, the ROTC program has the opportunity to place itself a notch above it's peers. Is the resulting officer better? They have the opportunity to be better, but so does any new 2LT. It's all a matter of interpretation, stigma, and connotation. There is a borderline between being proud of your alma mater and being an arrogant twat, but that little extra pride is justifiable in my opinion. Just save it for the "I love me" wall in your office.
 
Maybe your stethoscope was, but your bar certainly wasn't. :wink:

You know it's true that the typical ROTC indoc amounts to pattycake. Sadly, it seems USMA has been trending that way.


My friends who went through ROTC at a regular college said indoc really never happened, unless you pledged for a 100% cadet-run ROTC fraternity, where the stories I heard ranged from pretty legit to just Full Metal Jacket reenactments. I will say 4th class year at The Citadel was pretty hard, especially if you decided to be a smartass on the first day like I did.

However, if we keep getting sued for hazing left and right like we've been, I better start working on my pattycake and nursery rhyme skills.
 
Sadly that really is the case in some small private college's programs. An acquaintance of mine at one says that land nav is only taught during MS3 pre-LDAC lab, and PT is only mandatory for the first 2 years.

I promise this is not the case at The Citadel, and therefore I trust all SMC's.

According to the number of SMC cadets failing **** at LDAC, I wouldn't. The Citadel had a few sent home.

I can also tell you that other ROTC cadets don't care where you go to school. There was a fat body from A&M in my regiment at LDAC who decided to wear his ring the whole time. Between that and the way he acted, we had a full time comedy show.
 
Maybe your stethoscope was, but your bar certainly wasn't. :wink:

You know it's true that the typical ROTC indoc amounts to pattycake. Sadly, it seems USMA has been trending that way.

Lol there really wasn't any indoc from what I can remember to be honest. I just showed up to school, but I don't feel like I'm a better or worse LT because of it when compared to my peers from other commissioning sources.
 
As one of the probable "bleeding hearts" to which was previously referred, I would like to add my 2 cents worth. I served 5 years in the ARMY. I used the GI bill to put myself through nursing school. I was a squad leader and ran the CIF in Schofield barracks. I only mention these facts to show that I am not "ARMY illiterate". I have enough leadership experience to understand the difference between what is "supposed" to be and what "actually" occurs. Yes, I know all about the rules as far as physical activity during a cat 5. I was stationed in Ft Huachuca, Az for 2 years and I know heat.

BUT- I am also a mom. My only child is now an NC at WP. My concerns were of inexperienced CADET CADRE making decisions either in haste or ignorance that could affect my NC's health. I needed assurances that these leaders IN TRAINING were also being properly supervised. I did not need to have my concerns belittled. Comparisons between new cadets and seasoned veterans(ie comparisons with Afghanistan) are like comparing apples to oranges. Recruits (whether at WP or regular basic training) should be acclimated for optimal results. Once the WP liaison posted pictures and stated what was being done to ensure protocols were being followed, my mind was at ease.

And no, my NC is not having any problems in Beast. In fact he wrote me that he may have over prepared, because wrote that pt was not bad at all. Of course he prepared by running 3 miles every day and would ruck 5-6 miles with 40 lbs on his back 3-4 times a week- in his combat boots. He scored 285 on the pre pt test. He also prepared well for the other aspects of Beast.
He was brigade commander in JROTC and captain of raiders and the honor guard.

This was not meant to start a fight, just to show my side of the situation. And I remain DAMN PROUD of my NC.

GO ARMY BEAT NAVY!:biggrin:
 
No, the cadre was just sent out there at their own will, with no accountability to anyone.

Additionally, every leader and situation our NCs ever encounter in the military will be perfectly regimented and safe.

What's more, we as the parents who have raised these NCs from pups should assume they themselves have forgotten everything we ever taught them and that they are completely helpless.

Someone is out to get them and we should be worried sick.:rolleyes:
 
If you remember, a NC, Jacob Bowers, died of heat exhaustion two years ago.
I don't have the experience to speak about whether or not Beast is easier, mollycoddling, etc. But that incident alone would make me want to ask the same questions about whether supervision and systems are in place. The answer may well be a "yes" -- but the questions are legitimate. And please keep in mind that they are being asked here, not through official channels. No parent is calling a TAC officer. This forum can serve that purpose - to allow a parent to get information that may not be easily available from a formal source, without interfering with academy operations.
 
I am still his mom flyboy and will always be concerned. AND the sarcasm is very unbecoming:rolleyes:

And thank you seamars, for the acknowledgement that my concerns are legitimate.

FYI, I think the female NC you are referring too is in my son's squad. Shame really, because many other female NC's are doing rather well....
 
Yep.

Some of it came out in a thread remembering Cadet Bowers, and that axe grinding admittedly ticked me off.

The parent's concerns had been addressed in another thread, yet they were compelled to remind everyone about an issue which 1) may or may not currently exist and 2) no parent on the group can affect.

Furthermore, I have yet to see a link, news article, law suit or testimonial that Cadet Bowers' death was due to negligence/ abuse from the cadre.

But let's bang those drums to get everyone in the right frame of mind, OK?
 
It came out because I was told my fears were ridiclulous, and then the platitudes about Afghanistan started. You did not see all of it because I deleted my posts to the original thread- once deb had posted the info. I know I should not have resurrected it in the thread about the NC who had died( and yes it was determined from heat exhaustion, apparently he ran out of water, he did not leave with a full camel back and no one had checked). But I was frustrated. I had been besieged by posts and emails to "put on my big girl panties" over what I believed to be legitimate concerns in the original thread.
Selfish- probably. But I still believe they were legitimate concerns, sorry
 
Concerns about what?

Most of what I read of your posts, if you are who I think you are, was raising concern about the accountability/ supervision of the cadre and the risk of abuse. You interrupted a tribute thread to cadet Bowers, whose death was ruled an accident, by using it as a forum for your unfounded grievances while being protected by everyone else attempting to post with respect and decorum.

In an attempt to justify your concern, you tried to leverage your prior service as some level of expertise on administering PT and training in the heat as well as managing cadre level instruction of new cadets. That was laughably sad.

Instead of recognizing that the cadre themselves are also attempting to prove their mettle as leaders; you chose to bang pots and raise suspicion of negligence and possibly even malice towards our New Cadets with ZERO substance or merit behind the inquiry.

Trust the leadership.
Trust your New Cadet.
Trust what you instilled into your child.

The chicken little act doesn't make you seem enlightened or more concerned than anyone else. You're also not the only one with prior service.
 
Am I an expert? NO. My prior service was just to show that I have SOME idea of what I was talking about. I did not say neglect nor abuse. I said ignorance/inexperience. They are also learning. I wanted assurances that the mistakes they learned from would not cost someone their life. But you are right abut one thing. I should not have brought it up in that thread- That was wrong. But the concerns were not. Good day to you sir.
 
And no, my NC is not having any problems in Beast. In fact he wrote me that he may have over prepared, because wrote that pt was not bad at all

He probably feels overprepared because his cadre are not allowed to make him do more than 5 push-ups at a time :rolleyes:

West Point has been creating fine officers for more than 200 years now. For most of those 200 years, cadets went through much worse "hazing" than doing PT until they were tired. There is a distinct difference between hazing that might actually endanger someone's life and doing corrective PT. The lack of the latter has already proven to cause problems with the class of 2016 and will no doubt result in the same problems with 2017.
 
If you remember, a NC, Jacob Bowers, died of heat exhaustion two years ago. .
A combination of pre-existing heart condition, extremely high heat, and Jake running from point to point (of his own free will), not unsupervised cadet cadre, resulted in his death

I don't have the experience to speak about whether or not Beast is easier, mollycoddling, etc. But that incident alone would make me want to ask the same questions about whether supervision and systems are in place. The answer may well be a "yes" -- but the questions are legitimate.

1. It is. Extremely so.
2. Maybe you should focus on asking more questions about what happened and less on trying to find a cadet to blame.
And please keep in mind that they are being asked here, not through official channels. No parent is calling a TAC officer. This forum can serve that purpose - to allow a parent to get information that may not be easily available from a formal source, without interfering with academy operations.

Not so. This has and continues to happen :rolleyes:
 
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