New Commandant at West Point

[BillSL]

The small novel you've written here suggests that you do care.

It is a little shameful to know that my Beast was "easier" than all the others, but at the same time, people make it sound like we had it easy because the cadre couldn't make it hard. They probably could if they really wanted to, I suppose (if you were in charge, you would make Beast physically harder through several other means, without doing what is considered "hazing", wouldn't you? I suppose the cadre could do the same thing if only they knew how and had the motivation to do so). I really do not care about what other people think concerning my Beast - my Beast is not going to change, and I think I would've completed it if it was easier or harder. But the fact that this topic was brought up so many times - at a time in which I was being challenged, a lot - is irritating.

2016 greet? That's a good joke

I greet. And I know lots of people who do greet. But when plebes don't greet and then the upperclassmen complain about it, well, it's not the plebes' fault that the upperclassmen apparently don't care about greeting (wouldn't they correct us if they cared?). While I don't agree 100% with the saying "there are no bad followers, just bad leaders" (there are lots of bad followers out there), I think it does have some truth in it. And our "leaders" can't complain about what we, the "followers", do, if they don't even seem to care about it.

I'm just posting this stuff because I haven't had a discussion in a while now. Unfortunately I think this discussion is going downhill very quickly. So I'll stop now. Thanks for the mental exercise

 

[armydaughter]

I think a lot of that has to do with the over-emphasis on Academics, which is now starting to rear its ugly head with the branch system and within the corps

Can you expand on this?

 

[lotrjedi13]

Still, "The Corps has..." according to, well, every graduating class. So I honestly don't care about opinions concerning our Beast, because it is always getting easier in some people's opinions (I had cows and firsties tell me that every class says their Beast was harder, including the upperclassmen when they were plebes). It was challenging for me, and that's what matters (it wasn't necessarily physically challenging, but rather psychologically). I just wish the upperclass cadets would realize that Beast was "easy" because they made it easy, and fix themselves instead of hiding their fault in the fact that they couldn't "smoke" us - there are good and bad plebes this year (just like any other year), and the upperclassmen insist on generalizing. The upperclass' opinion is useless to me, but I fear that their generalization will not serve them well as Officers. Do correct me if I am wrong, please.

Everyone says that their Beast was harder than the next class's because, frankly, they are. My Beast was a summer camp compared to the starvation stories of old grads, and what I saw at both 2015 and 2016's Beast confirms the decrease in rigor. You mention that Beast was psychologically challenging--imagine how much more psychologically challenging it would have been if you had been pushed to and beyond your breaking point physically, how much closer your squad would have been if you had survived smokings with no one other than the person on your right and left to get you through.

"We" as cadre did not make it easy. Higher literally took away all tools besides positive leadership and writing essays. Try breaking down a class when you cannot drop them individually for anything (much less as a group), when you cannot raise your voice or let slip a curse word in front of them, when you cannot ask knowledge during meals, when the Cadet in the Red Sash is no longer a culture shock moment and the 1SGs' scripts for reporting NCs included the phrase, "The most important thing to remember to be successful in Beast is a happy and positive attitude." Two summers ago I sat terrified through the 4th of July concert hoping that the cadre wouldn't catch me as I whispered to a friend next to me--this summer, the cadre and TACs were not allowed to patrol the NCs' aisles and the NCs returned from the concert with torn uniforms splattered with glowstick liquid after they started a mosh pit. I have a friend who was nearly relieved of his leadership position because New Cadets joined him for voluntary PT in the hallways after dinner (hazing, apparently) and have another whose squad asked her before the first week was up, "Wasn't this supposed to be hard, Sergeant? I came here for a challenge" and by change-of-command was mouthing off because "there is nothing you can do to me, Sergeant." The cadre members I know were terrified of being relieved, and the power was squarely in the hands of the New Cadets.

You warn "us" of overgeneralizing. It is true that there are good plebes and bad plebes. But, as a group, the plebes in my company fail to work together. In the instances I have helped run laundry duties, they were unsuccessful at wearing the same uniform not one, not two, but three duties in a row. They came out with different counts for the days, and repeatedly failed to use rank when addressing upperclassmen. I cannot speak for other companies, but for my company, we have a lot of work to do with them. Hopefully BG Clarke will untie our hands this semester and tighten things up this summer.

Finally, a statement like "the upperclass' opinion is useless to me" is generalization. Though, since I'm an upperclassman, I probably needn't have pointed that out since my opinion is useless to you anyway.

 

[BillSL]

Finally, a statement like "the upperclass' opinion is useless to me" is generalization. Though, since I'm an upperclassman, I probably needn't have pointed that out since my opinion is useless to you anyway.

It's not that your opinion is "useless" - it's that, as far as I know, your opinion will have no repercussions on me or my classmates. I do love hearing other people's opinions, because that's how I learn about a subject... otherwise, I wouldn't be posting here in the first time, or reading what others have posted in reply to me.

You have raised valid points - points that no one has raised before (or together) with me. Sure, our Beast was easier, but that does not necessarily mean we are... well, less prepared, or learned "less" during Beast than the other classes, and that's my point. And I didn't know your hands were tied so hard... my opinions was based on the fact that my academic year hasn't been as hard as some of my classmates from other companies, so I assumed that, if other companies can make the year "hard", so could my company if they wanted to, and so could the cadre during Beast, but I suppose I am wrong now. I now remember one episode during Beast that I think got the upperclass cadet in serious trouble... even though what that cadet did was, in my opinion, very justified and... extremely humorous, to say the least. I don't know how that was perceived as "hazing" (it wasn't physically nor emotionally challenging, through my OUTSIDE perspective).

I certainly agree the lack of "smoking" and other physical challenges did prevent us from bonding as much as I think we should have (I did say smoking has some purposes). We should have had more of those, I guess (I do say this in hindsight, however. During Beast, I wouldn't have said the same thing). One of the tryouts I did here at West Point included a very hard physical day. And I gotta say, I trust those people in my group, most of whom I had never seen before, much more than some of my squadmates during Beast and current companymates. But, since we got scrambled out of Beast, I don't know how effective overcoming physical hardships together during Beast would be in "bonding" the plebe class within a company.

I would like to know a cadre's perspective on his experience during Beast. Not how the NCs were disrespectful or how they couldn't do anything to make Beast hard for us... but if the experience as a whole was valuable for him or her as a leader... I thought this was the purpose of your hands being tied so hard. If there was no good outcome from this policy for the cadre AND for the NCs, then I agree there is something seriously wrong here. As I said, I learned by pushing myself that I can overcome physical challenges much harder than I thought I could... unfortunately, I don't know if most of my classmates learned this as well.

 

[BigBear]

Can you expand on this?

As far as branching goes, one of the reasons that we have been told they are trying to change the system is because they are ending up with cadets who get combat arms branches because they have the highest class rank, not because they are best suited for the combat arms. Academics makes up 60% of the cumulative score that determines class rank, so your academic performance was typically the determining factor for branch choice. The example they gave us was that the rugby team captain couldn't get an infantry slot, which doesn't make sense considering his leadership and physical ability. They are working to change/improve the system.

As far as the corps is concerned, the emphasis on academics means there is little to no military training during the school year, unless you count sami and uniform inspections as military training. Cadets are limited in what they can do at night in order to preserve Evening Study Period. While this is anecdotal and not based on any solid stats, it seems like the number of cadets who are here for the "great education" is going up while the number who are here because they want to be Army officers is going down. When these people get into company leadership positions, it shows.

 

[Dixieland]

"We" as cadre did not make it easy. Higher literally took away all tools besides positive leadership and writing essays. Try breaking down a class when you cannot drop them individually for anything (much less as a group), when you cannot raise your voice or let slip a curse word in front of them, when you cannot ask knowledge during meals, when the Cadet in the Red Sash is no longer a culture shock moment and the 1SGs' scripts for reporting NCs included the phrase, "The most important thing to remember to be successful in Beast is a happy and positive attitude." Two summers ago I sat terrified through the 4th of July concert hoping that the cadre wouldn't catch me as I whispered to a friend next to me--this summer, the cadre and TACs were not allowed to patrol the NCs' aisles and the NCs returned from the concert with torn uniforms splattered with glowstick liquid after they started a mosh pit. I have a friend who was nearly relieved of his leadership position because New Cadets joined him for voluntary PT in the hallways after dinner (hazing, apparently) and have another whose squad asked her before the first week was up, "Wasn't this supposed to be hard, Sergeant? I came here for a challenge" and by change-of-command was mouthing off because "there is nothing you can do to me, Sergeant." The cadre members I know were terrified of being relieved, and the power was squarely in the hands of the New Cadets.

You warn "us" of overgeneralizing. It is true that there are good plebes and bad plebes. But, as a group, the plebes in my company fail to work together. In the instances I have helped run laundry duties, they were unsuccessful at wearing the same uniform not one, not two, but three duties in a row. They came out with different counts for the days, and repeatedly failed to use rank when addressing upperclassmen. I cannot speak for other companies, but for my company, we have a lot of work to do with them. Hopefully BG Clarke will untie our hands this semester and tighten things up this summer.

Finally, a statement like "the upperclass' opinion is useless to me" is generalization. Though, since I'm an upperclassman, I probably needn't have pointed that out since my opinion is useless to you anyway.

Great post, lotrjedi13.

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw pictures of the 2016 new cadets crowd-surfing and hitting a beach ball around at the July 4th concert. My upperclass cadet was worried that he was going to fall asleep and catch the eye of cadre at his concert!

"The most important thing to remember to be successful in Beast is a happy and positive attitude."

Oh my gosh.

 

[mom3boys]

Rumor mill says that all will be set right this summer at Buckner.

 

[BillSL]

Rumor mill says that all will be set right this summer at Buckner.

Rumor mill also said it would all be set during the Academic year. I really don't know what to expect from Buckner. Hopefully they will make it harder so we can finally get those "basic training horror stories" to share that we didn't really get during Beast.

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw pictures of the 2016 new cadets crowd-surfing and hitting a beach ball around at the July 4th concert.

Yeah, that was ridiculous. I don't know why the beach ball was there. And apparently some companies during Beast punished the NCs for the mosh pit (not mine, we just had a speech about it). But, at the same time, all that happened over there was not too surprising... they couldn't expect a bunch of kids, most who had just graduated H.S., to just not do that without being at least TOLD not to do that. I am not defending the behavior of the NCs, but I am saying it was not just their fault.

 

[scoutpilot]

At age 31, I still count the 4th of July concert in Beast as one of the most monumentally unhappy times in my life. Crowd-surfing? C'mon, man.

 

[another13mom]

^^ haha - a mom was at fireworks on July 4, taking pictures. One of my firstie - I nearly cried - based on the expression of every cadet, it was the singular worst day of their lives. He confirmed it for me when he got his first call home. Things got incrementally better after that, but it was not fun.

 

[another13mom]

^^ that was in 2009, not last summer - and the pix were posted on the WP Moms page, cadet after cadet looked absolutely miserable, pale, tired, not a smile to be seen.

 

[MemberLG]

Yeah, that was ridiculous. I don't know why the beach ball was there. And apparently some companies during Beast punished the NCs for the mosh pit (not mine, we just had a speech about it). But, at the same time, all that happened over there was not too surprising... they couldn't expect a bunch of kids, most who had just graduated H.S., to just not do that without being at least TOLD not to do that. I am not defending the behavior of the NCs, but I am saying it was not just their fault.

Are three responses for new cadets still - yes, no, I do not understand?

You are not a kid anymore as in about 4 short years you should be a platoon leader. You are supposed to be the best that America has to offer, not just kids that graduated high school. The real repercussion will be your superior officers holding you responsible for your action. At West Point, it might be silly punishments. But in real world, it's for real. And please don't say it will be different when you enter the Army.

 

[BillSL]

You are not a kid anymore as in about 4 short years you should be a platoon leader. You are supposed to be the best that America has to offer, not just kids that graduated high school. The real repercussion will be your superior officers holding you responsible for your action. At West Point, it might be silly punishments. But in real world, it's for real. And please don't say it will be different when you enter the Army.

I couldn't agree more with what you said.

Most NCs were not prepared, or were never taught, or lacked the common sense on how to behave in that situation. I can't tell what was going on through every NC's mind at the time, but I am not terribly surprised that something like that happened. The application process selects the cadets with great standardized test scores, with great demonstrated leadership skills, with great achievements, with great success in H.S. or wherever they were before they got an appointment to West Point. The application process does not analyze who has the best behavior or knowledge on how an Officer should behave. We are not here because we are Officers - we are here to become Officers. And we'll make lots of mistakes in the process (my mistakes were numerous, but at least cameras were not point at me). Am I saying we had to make the mosh pit to learn what not to do? No... I guess we shouldn't have done it. It didn't seem like a good idea at the time, however. I know that I learned something from the repercussions of that episode about behavior in uniform. And I hope my classmates also did.

Are three responses for new cadets still - yes, no, I do not understand?

They added "Sir/Ma'am, I do not understand!" Life sure as hell got easier here since we could afford to listen to instructions again!

I remember when I reported to the Cadet in the Red Sash... she said something, but I just couldn't hear it (it was so loud around us). I kept saying "Ma'am, I do not understand! Ma'am, I do not understand!" (while, in reality, I just couldn't hear her)...

After four repeats, I finally was able to hear what she said: "execute an about-face, march to the white tape where you will execute a left-face and enter the door and await further instructions!" I wonder what she was thinking of me after I "didn't understand" those simple instructions so many times...

 

[BigNick]

Unfortunately “Beast Barracks” has become only a fraction of the degree of difficulty of past years. These two months should challenge every New Cadet to the max. The new restrictions on strongly correcting cadets (some chewing-out within reason is good), punishment push-ups (with upperclassmen matching those push-ups), and other rules that ease the physical and mental strain on New Cadets, have made this traditional “breaking-in and paying dues” period unchallenging to many New Cadets.

It seems that the physical standards and the mental pressure have been lowered to accommodate the weaker New Cadets – both men and women. This is a surprise and disappointment to many New Cadets who expected and welcomed a more challenging experience. The restrictions placed on the Cadre for the Class of 2016 Beast were extreme.

New Cadets should feel a great sense of accomplishment in completing “Beast”. In addition, the upperclassmen should feel that the New Cadets have earned the right to be full pledged Cadets. Currently this is not the case.

 

[BigBear]

the upperclassmen should feel that the New Cadets have earned the right to be full pledged Cadets. Currently this is not the case.

 

[oldcorpsdad]

As far as branching goes, one of the reasons that we have been told they are trying to change the system is because they are ending up with cadets who get combat arms branches because they have the highest class rank, not because they are best suited for the combat arms. Academics makes up 60% of the cumulative score that determines class rank, so your academic performance was typically the determining factor for branch choice. The example they gave us was that the rugby team captain couldn't get an infantry slot, which doesn't make sense considering his leadership and physical ability. They are working to change/improve the system.

Ok, this one still has me flummoxed. I find it hard to believe that the last thing the Infantry needs is more smart people. (spent 20 years in the Infantry). What I found then and you will hopefully come to realize is that real leadership in hard times comes from many factors. You will find rugby team captains who collapse under the pressure of leadership and rugby team captains who excel. You will find star men who were intramural rejects who fail miserably and star men who were intramural rejects who rise to the occasion and are exceptional leaders of character who inspire their troops to succeed and victory. All things considered, I agree with Erwin Rommel - "Sweat saves blood, blood saves lives, but brains saves both."

 

[PBA]

Ok, this one still has me flummoxed. I find it hard to believe that the last thing the Infantry needs is more smart people. (spent 20 years in the Infantry). What I found then and you will hopefully come to realize is that real leadership in hard times comes from many factors. You will find rugby team captains who collapse under the pressure of leadership and rugby team captains who excel. You will find star men who were intramural rejects who fail miserably and star men who were intramural rejects who rise to the occasion and are exceptional leaders of character who inspire their troops to succeed and victory. All things considered, I agree with Erwin Rommel - "Sweat saves blood, blood saves lives, but brains saves both."

 

[BigBear]

Ok, this one still has me flummoxed. I find it hard to believe that the last thing the Infantry needs is more smart people. (spent 20 years in the Infantry). What I found then and you will hopefully come to realize is that real leadership in hard times comes from many factors. You will find rugby team captains who collapse under the pressure of leadership and rugby team captains who excel. You will find star men who were intramural rejects who fail miserably and star men who were intramural rejects who rise to the occasion and are exceptional leaders of character who inspire their troops to succeed and victory. All things considered, I agree with Erwin Rommel - "Sweat saves blood, blood saves lives, but brains saves both."

I think we are in agreement here, and that is why they are trying to find a system that better identifies those who will rise to the occasion.

 

[df123]

Everyone says that their Beast was harder than the next class's because, frankly, they are. My Beast was a summer camp compared to the starvation stories of old grads, and what I saw at both 2015 and 2016's Beast confirms the decrease in rigor. You mention that Beast was psychologically challenging--imagine how much more psychologically challenging it would have been if you had been pushed to and beyond your breaking point physically, how much closer your squad would have been if you had survived smokings with no one other than the person on your right and left to get you through.

"We" as cadre did not make it easy. Higher literally took away all tools besides positive leadership and writing essays. Try breaking down a class when you cannot drop them individually for anything (much less as a group), when you cannot raise your voice or let slip a curse word in front of them, when you cannot ask knowledge during meals, when the Cadet in the Red Sash is no longer a culture shock moment and the 1SGs' scripts for reporting NCs included the phrase, "The most important thing to remember to be successful in Beast is a happy and positive attitude." Two summers ago I sat terrified through the 4th of July concert hoping that the cadre wouldn't catch me as I whispered to a friend next to me--this summer, the cadre and TACs were not allowed to patrol the NCs' aisles and the NCs returned from the concert with torn uniforms splattered with glowstick liquid after they started a mosh pit. I have a friend who was nearly relieved of his leadership position because New Cadets joined him for voluntary PT in the hallways after dinner (hazing, apparently) and have another whose squad asked her before the first week was up, "Wasn't this supposed to be hard, Sergeant? I came here for a challenge" and by change-of-command was mouthing off because "there is nothing you can do to me, Sergeant." The cadre members I know were terrified of being relieved, and the power was squarely in the hands of the New Cadets.

You warn "us" of overgeneralizing. It is true that there are good plebes and bad plebes. But, as a group, the plebes in my company fail to work together. In the instances I have helped run laundry duties, they were unsuccessful at wearing the same uniform not one, not two, but three duties in a row. They came out with different counts for the days, and repeatedly failed to use rank when addressing upperclassmen. I cannot speak for other companies, but for my company, we have a lot of work to do with them. Hopefully BG Clarke will untie our hands this semester and tighten things up this summer.

Finally, a statement like "the upperclass' opinion is useless to me" is generalization. Though, since I'm an upperclassman, I probably needn't have pointed that out since my opinion is useless to you anyway.

I think my son was a plebe in the company you mentioned with the voluntary PT session. For the record he, and the rest of his platoon, were not complaining about the session. They were, in a bizarre kind of way, looking forward to the smoking. They thought it was wrong for the cadre member to be disciplined and disappointed that the sessions couldn't continue. It's unfortunate that higher made the decisions they made with regard to restricting the cadre. I truly believe that nearly all of the Class of 2016 would have preferred to have a more challenging Beast, but let's not go so far as to say that Beast was "easy" - I doubt many of the new cadets would have chartacterized Beast as "easy", but many would say it was easier than they had expected it to be (and were disappointed that it was). I do think it's unfair to hold it against the Class of 2016 (or the Cadre for that matter) when they had absolutely nothing to do with determining how demanding their Beast experience was. Just my two cents worth.

 

[BigNick]

df123,
I agree. The reason Beast was so easy was that the senior Officers at West Point -specifically the Sup and Com - forced the cadre to be easy. Thank goodness that Commandant is gone -
I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF NEW CADETS WANT AND EXPECT BEAST TO BE VERY DIFFICULT FROM THE MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STANDPOINT.
Cadets are not at fault for this situation. We need some strong, tough senior leadership. Hopefully, the new Commandant - who comes from the "hard core" part of the Army - will provide that tough leadership. It would be welcomed - I believe - by the majority of the Cadets.
I have personally written the new Commandant to urge him to tighten the military standards throughout the Corps.