New 'religious tolerance' policies.

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by jenks93, May 1, 2013.

  1. jenks93

    jenks93 Member

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  2. mperri215

    mperri215 USMMAPrep18

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    This man claims to be implementing the Constitution, when it very well preserves the freedoms to follow religion. How can it be unlawful to ask a CHAPLAIN about the Gospel. It is not like a CO is preaching to his squad. I am outraged. Religion should not be forced on anyone, but it shouldn't be taken away either.
     
  3. Melitzank

    Melitzank Member

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    So I'm guessing Weinstein isn't too religious, huh?

    Not sure why chaplains shouldn't be allowed to share their religion....I mean, that's kind of what a minister does. I do understand, however, that since this is the military, they aren't just here to say, "Hallelujah, Amen!" but to counsel the Airmen/Soldiers/Sailors/Marines that come to them for whatever they need help with, and I'm sure they have plenty of non-religious servicemembers coming to see them too. Still, even if an atheist comes to seek counseling for a problem s/he's having, I see no reason why the chaplain shouldn't be able to at least suggest praying or reading the Bible. I don't see how that us harming religious freedom.

    That said, I'm not in the military so have no idea what is true here and what isn't/what is acceptable/what isn't, so I apologize if I said something that's untrue. Current/former servicemembers, do you personally feel the chaplains have overstepped the boundaries at all? If so, in what way?
     
  4. FlyingFuzz

    FlyingFuzz Member

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    I can't get the articles to open, but seeing Weinstein's name is enough to tip anyone off. Weinstein's problem is that he wants freedom from religion (especially Christianity, his favorite target), rather than freedom of religion. I'm surprised the pentagon would give him the time of day; he just thrives on that attention because his MRFF is a total joke.
     
  5. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    Regardless of our feelings on Weinstein, he has a point. (And he isn't just anti-religion, he goes after anyone who imposes their spiritual viewpoint: "Weinstein even got the military to force an officer to remove an atheist bumper sticker from his car. An evangelical Christian complained about the sticker, which bore a drawing of Satan and a Christian fish.")

    The impression of favoritism based on religion is a big deal in a chain of command. I've heard stories from my mentors as well as my peers about instances where they did not feel comfortable in their command environment but felt unable to confront the issue for fear of reprisal. Not exactly a new story either. USAFA has had its own issues on that front.

    Further, several of my JAG friends were happy to see this and were in complete agreement with the need for it. It's not something to eradicate religion, it's a means of protecting those who do not want to be proselytized to in the workplace where such behavior IS ENTIRELY INAPPROPRIATE in the first place.
     
  6. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Damn that pesky Constitution and its Establishment Clause, which guarantees his right to be free "from" proselytizing in a government setting.

    It is important to note that the clause also prohibits the endorsement of religion generally over non-religion.

    Agree, +1.

    It's always a problem when "my religion" is being supposedly being "attacked" but when it happens to "that other religion" it's no big deal.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  7. GoArmyBeatNavy

    GoArmyBeatNavy Member

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    As both articles are opinion pieces that play fast and loose with the facts, they are extreme and basing any opinions on them would be shortsighted.
     
  8. tradecraft

    tradecraft Member

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    Politics and Religion are topics I try to avoid because no one wins. But this makes perfect sense.:thumb:
     
  9. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    See, but I think that is inappropriate too. I'm a Christian, I certainly wouldn't agree with the bumper sticker, but I don't think that's in his place to have removed.

    Stating a spiritual viewpoint is "imposing a spiritual viewpoint." If I don't like the bumper sticker, and it boils my blood, that doesn't mean he's "imposed" his beliefs on me.

    When a "Vote for Obama" bumper stickered car cuts me off on I-270 on my way out of DC... that doesn't mean I feel I need to suddenly vote for Obama.

    My opinion, unless I'm forcing someone at gun point to go to church or read the koran or read from the Tora.... I'm not imposing if I pray before I eat, have a Jesus fish on my car or a Cross around my neck. I don't consider someone's Star of David, prayer rug or lack of the above as imposing either.
     
  10. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    With all due respect to JAGs, just because the lawyers like it doesn't make it right. History is full of idiot, criminal lawyers. A JD doesn't change that. A direct-commission JD with a uniform certainly doesn't change that.
     
  11. pathnottaken

    pathnottaken Member

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    Help me understand: What is wrong with:

    “Leaders at all levels,” the document says, “must avoid the actual or apparent use of their position to promote their personal religious beliefs to their subordinates or to extend preferential treatment for any religion.” It even suggested that noncompliance could result in court-martial.
     
  12. FlyingFuzz

    FlyingFuzz Member

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    How is he not anti-religion if who goes after people with spiritual views, regardless of their religion? That person should not have been forced to remove their bumper sticker, because if that could exert "undue" influence on somebody, then heaven help us if we go out into the civilian world and see even worse bumper stickers. There must be a lot of undue influence out there.

    Yes there should be extreme cautioned exercised within the chain of command, especially when it comes to the relationship of a superior over his subordinates, but I'd rather have someone besides Weinstein attacking the problem.
     
  13. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    My point on Weinstein was completely missed. I didn't agree with his whole philosophy. Many just accuse him of being anti-religious or anti-Christian. He's just anti-any spiritual. I'm not going any deeper than that, I don't think there's any further discussion needed because I'm really not condoning and it seems no one else is.

    So, if you want to focus on the ACTUAL DoD policy, I'll engage there. I'll reiterate, I think the new policy is a step in the right direction on maintaining an appropriate and professional work environment.
     
  14. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Where is the actual policy?
     
  15. FlyingFuzz

    FlyingFuzz Member

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    Yes, HornetGuy, what is the actual DoD policy? I don't intend that as a snyde remark, I honestly don't know what it is. Don't get me wrong, there have been plenty of instances in which Christians have crossed the line in evangelizing in professional environments, but Weinstein is just not balanced in his all too vicious attacks.
     
  16. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

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    I should probably revise my statement and say reiteration of current policy rather than "new" policy. Snopes has a pretty good read out on it:
    http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/proselytizing.asp

    Best not to forget the actual issue on account of the messenger being a blow hard.
     
  17. pathnottaken

    pathnottaken Member

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    Thank you for the link!
     
  18. aglages

    aglages Parent

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    Nothing wrong with it that I can see. Of course you might have a different opinion if you felt it necessary to evangelize around your subordinates. Is it possible that some forms of organized religion encourage evangelizing during you daily life (including work)?
     
  19. Art.Perea

    Art.Perea Member

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    The only reason it seems unbalanced is because the number of Christians is enormous when compared to any other religious group, especially in the military. Yes he attacks more Christians than anyone else, but that is because there are more Christians than anyone else. It is extremely difficult to impose a religious view point when only 10% of the military agrees with you. However when you have a large majority, it is very easy to impose religion without even realizing it.

    The military is, and always has been, made up of predominately Christians. I mean, VMI had a mandatory prayer before each meal until 2004 (that date might be off by a year or two). And a lot of that can be blamed on Senator McCarthy and the red scare in the 1950s. If you weren't christian, there was a good chance you would be black listed (and if you weren't white you were screwed) It is also because of him that our money reads, "in god we trust." We had to separate ourselves from everything communist and a part if that is atheism. So removing the Christian dominance in the military may seem like the religion is under attack, but in actuality it is being brought down to the same level as other religions. Try walking around with a hijab or a yamaka or a atheist T-shirt. Then walk around with a cross around your neck and tell me which one attracts more attention from the American public.


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  20. Arizona

    Arizona 2017 USAFAPs appointee

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    I don't want like to express my opinions on new rule coming down because honestly it will only get you into trouble / arguments with others but I did find the first bullet in the second article to be quite obnoxious!

    ●Recently, an Army commander in Europe overturned a jury’s conviction of an officer for sexual assault, despite the fact that the decision was unanimous.

    How is that even legal?
     

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