Nomination "hierarchy"

Discussion in 'Naval Academy - USNA' started by Texanmom, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. Texanmom

    Texanmom Member

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    does anyone understand how the nomination hierarchy works or even if there is one? is it more meaningful (ultimately better for admission) to get a Senator's nomination than a Congressman's? does the Senator/Congressman "rank" his/her nominations when they are submitted to the USNA? I guess I am asking... are all nominations created equal?
     
  2. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Yes, all MOC noms are created equal. I've never heard of USNA "preferring" one MOC nom over another.

    As to whether the MOC "ranks" his/her candidates . . . entirely up to the MOC. Some do; most do not.
     
  3. Texanmom

    Texanmom Member

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    nominations hierarchy

    gosh thanks! that was quick
     
  4. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

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    There is a "better" nomination.

    MOC can nominated up to 10 candidates for a vacancy

    If your nomination is the principle and you are qualified, you get an appointment, even if any remaining 9 nominees might be better than you.

    If you ranked when nominated, being ranker higher is better. If you are ranked number 1 and full qualifed, you are in. But if #1 ranked kid is not qualified, #2 kid gets in.

    Lastly, at large, here are ten nomination, SA figure it out who you want.
     
  5. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    Texas Nomination Policy

    Cornyn/Hutchison talk to the house reps and the general policy is that candidates receive only one nomination. So, qualified candidates might be stuck on one of the senator's slate, which is going to be far more competitive than your district's slate. In Texas, it's more favorable to receive your district's nomination because the slate will be less competitive.
     
  6. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Great post! Indeed there can well be a priority ranking in nominations, i.e. "better", more preferable nominations than others. You've explained it well and concisely.

    Shawn, your point, on its surface, "seems" to make sense (statewide competition would be more competitive than an MOC district), but it would be coincidental if your point were accurate. In fact you have no idea if senatorial slates are "more competitive" than MOC slates, and there is no way to support your assumption. Again, would "seem" to be the case, but in absent of knowing, don't assume. That can be dangerous.

    In any case, trying to differentiate relative competitiveness between 100 senatorial slates and nearly 500 MOC slates is like trying to figure out how many angels really can dance on the head of a pin. Could a computer run the WP numbers in the end? Yea, I've no doubt. And the answer might well be ... "Yea. So what? What now, my love?" :wink:

    PA is same as TX. With perhaps occasional abberant exception, one nom/candidate.
     
  7. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Yes, it is obviously better to have a principal nom IF your MOC names one. And, IF your MOC ranks, better to be ranked #1 than #10. :smile:

    However, just because you have a nom from a Senator (who, arguably, has a larger and thus more competitive pool of applicants from which to choose within a given state) doesn't mean that it's "better" in the eyes of USNA than a nom from a Rep. IOW, there's not a hierarchy based solely on whether your nom source is a Rep or Sen.
     
  8. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Amen.

    I think Shawn is confusing apples and oranges suggesting that is is "easier" to get an MOC nom than a senatorial and therefore, the senatorial will have stronger candidates and therefore USNA would look at senatorially nominated candidates as stronger, better candidates.

    Of course, none of those "therefore" assumptions are necessarily true.

    Statistically, the only implicit truth is this ... for candidates, it is much more likely, they will receive an MOC nomination than a senatorial nomination. Apply for both, in fact ALL that you can. Period.
     
  9. time2

    time2 Member

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    You can only apply for a NOM in the place where you live. If you live in Ohio, you can't apply for a NOM for California. Therefore, there is no point in saying which of those in more competitive. USNA suggests you apply for all NOM's for which you are eligible. The MOC decides if they will give out a principal NOM or not. The candidate doesn't get to choose.
     
  10. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    I didn't say any such thing. I was simply stating that in a state like Texas, which is the 2nd biggest in the nation and has a large military presence, the pool of senatorial candidates is far greater than a particular district. Assuming the nom boards make decisions based off merit, and assuming that the candidates aren't all from a single district, Cornyn's and Hutchison's 10 candidates will be far more qualified than the top 10 in a single district.

    So, hypothetically, the "least qualified" candidate on Cornyn's slate could perhaps be the "most qualified" in his district. But because he can't get his MoC's nomination, and in turn isn't charged to his MoC's vacancy, he goes into the national pool. Going back to the OP's question, a senator nomination is the same as a house rep's nomination when in the national pool.

    There's flaws in this logic, of course, but it is generally true. I only replied to this post because it's exactly what happened to me last year.
     
  11. LakeErie69

    LakeErie69 Member

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    Say my MOC ranks candidates 1-10. Will I know where I'm ranked, or is it dependent on the MOC?
     
  12. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Shawn, what you say might well be true. Or it might well be not true. Problem is neither you nor I knows if it is. What continues to get you in trouble in your logic is your "seems to's", "hypothetically's" and "assuming's". All they mean is ... well it seems like. But true? Cannot make that claim. A philosophy, logic, or even some math courses may help to grasp what I'm saying. Lots of "if this, then that" type of exercises. Good luck and GO NAVY!
     
  13. Texanmom

    Texanmom Member

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    I heard that each MOC has 10 nominations to grant. Are those 10 spread across all the service academies? Can an MOC grant an unequal amount of nominations (more to one academy than the others) based on the qualifications of his particular pool of applicants? And if an MOC already has two students he/she appointed currently enrolled in the USNA, does that mean the MOC only has 8 nominations to grant? Thanks for any info on this topic. Son is in the process of seeking noms and I don't understand all the rules and how competitive this is!!
     
  14. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I have to agree with WhistlePig's post above. But since we're assuming some things let's continue in that vein. Let's assume that each congressman in Texas nominates the top 10 applicant's in their district and further assume that each candidate applied to their congressman and senator. These seem like reasonable assumptions as well... but if you take these assumptions, then the none of Cornyn's candidates could possibly be in the top 10 in their district and one might further assume the entire Cornyn slate is less qualified than any congressman's.

    As WhistlePig said, we don't know. At best one can make some assumptions which may or may not be correct. The only thing we can say is that the competition for the Senatorial slate is more competitive if only because it draws from a larger pool of applicants over a wider geographical area.
     
  15. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    This is incorrect. A MOC may have 5 cadets/MIDN at each service academy (charged) at any given time. So statistically, that is 1 vacancy per year, though it could be more or none. Also, MOC nominations are non-transferable between each academy. For each vacancy the MOC can nominate 10 candidates. So if there is more than one vacancy, multiply 10 by the number of vacancies.

    The bottom line with nominations is apply to all, you can't control if and who selects you.

    In regards to the Senators and Congressmen competition, it depends. I'd agree with Shawn if there is an understanding that the Senators pick first, speak among each other, then release the names to the Congressmen; it would be highly likely that the Senators nominations would be extremely competitive. However, if all the MOCs do their own thing and don't coordinate, then it is possible that the competition might be as difficult within the Congressman's district and it also might lead to the possibility of multiple nominations. Shawn is correct that statistically, the Senators nominations can be harder to receive because of the higher number of candidates (with the exception of some small states). I am unfamiliar with TX, so not sure how they work nominations within the state.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  16. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    Each MOC has 5 designated appointments, i.e. "counted" toward his allotment. In fact the MOC may have more Mids or Cadets from his/her district, but only 5 total at any given time may be accredited to his nominations. And so, if an MOC currently has 3 Mids enrolled, that mean as many as 20 students could receive a nomination from this MOC. As many as 2 could conceivably be principal nominations. Essentially, each can nominate as many as 10 per available slot in any given year. Or none. Or somewhere in between. The slate may be submitted ranked from 1-10, which means #1, if 3Qed will receive offer of appointment. If not qualified or if he/she declines, the offer must go to #2, and the same process begins again. Many slates are submitted unranked meaning USNA Admissions has the freedom to take who they want from the nominees. Or none if they do not Qualify. A 3rd possibility for submission is with a principal nominee and unranked others. Hoping this helps. btw, each SA is distinctly separate. And Coast Guard requires no nomination. And if a student is interested in multiple nominations to various SAs ... well there is great variability among MOCs, i.e. some will allow only one nom per student. Others might well have the same candidate nominated and even as a principal for each of 4 SAs. btw, Merchant Marine Academy is a great place that often goes undersubsribed and nominated. But it isn't USNA.

    Is this clear as mud? Thought so!
     
  17. Texanmom

    Texanmom Member

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    Thanks Whistle Pig that is actually very clear and just what I wanted to know. Does anyone know if Texas senators rank their nominees? And does a #1 ranking from a senator's slate mean you get an LOA if you are otherwise 3Q?
     
  18. Whistle Pig

    Whistle Pig Banned

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    I don't know the answer to your first question.

    However to your 2nd ... there is no connection between LOAs and nominations. In fact, most often LOAs are awarded long before nominations are determined. Not always, but often. So a #1 ranking means nothing relative to LOAs.

    UNLESS ... the candidate already HAS the LOA when given the nom, #1 ... or #10. With that and all other aspects leading to scholastic, medical, and physical qualification, i.e. 3Qed ... then an offer of appointment must be made.
     
  19. usnabgo08

    usnabgo08 USNA 2008/BGO

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    I think there is some confusion here....

    3Q/LOAs are terms USNA uses. LOA = Letter of Assurance; 3Q = triple qualified.
    Guaranteed Appointment = LOA + nomination + medical/physical qualification. Nothing else is guaranteed.

    MOCs have their own independent assessment of the candidate that USNA does not get involved with. The only exception is notifying the MOC that a candidate received an LOA (sometimes). The MOC can choose to do whatever with that information. It might mean the MOC places that candidate on their slate. As to a ranking, that just depends on which method the MOC chooses to use.

    USNA does not share information (other than LOA) with MOCs or try to influence the nomination process. Additionally, the same respect is normally honored the other way around. So what a MOC and USNA does are mutually independent of each other.
     
  20. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    As an aside, one thing to consider with noms from Senators is that -- especially for large states geographically -- they typically "spread out" their noms throughout the state.

    So, in TX, for example, I would expect the Senators to nominate candidates from Dallas and Austin and San Antonio and Houston and El Paso and other regions of the state . . . for political/consituency reasons. So, even if the 10 "most qualified" candidates all lived in and around Dallas, I would be extremely surprised that all 10 noms would come from this region. OTOH, congressional districts are smaller in size (other than the states that have only one rep) so -- other than not taking all candidates from the same h.s. -- there is less need to "diversify" geographically.

    As you can see, lots of things go into the process.
     

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