Nominations-Is it a done deal

[buff81]

DS has now received letter from our congressman and both senators stating that he has not received a nomination. Is there still a chance he can receive a nomination or is this a done deal? He has received a letter from USMA stating he is fully qualified but still needs a nomination. Thanks

FAS

Another nom available (in addition to the VP nom) is the Superintendent's nomination. He has 50/year at large and is at his discretion. You do not apply for it.

 

[FAS]

DS did apply for the VP nom several months ago. Thanks for the addtional infromation.

 

[Christcorp]

Not trying to be a downer, but there is some reality that needs to be recognized. MORE than 4,000 applicants will receive a nomination. (453 representative with 10 names each; 100 senators with 10 names each, approximately 500 presidentials, etc...). And when the dust settles, only about 1300-1400 will actually receive an appointment. that means about 2700+ individuals WITH A NOMINATION won't get an appointment.

Prior to these 4,000+/- getting nominations, approximately 6000-6500 were considered "Qualified". Call it 3Q, competitive, or any other jargon. Basically, 6000+/- started in the position that your son/daughter are in now. Qualified.

Now the original poster is asking about their son/daughter who is qualified but not having a nomination, and if they still have a chance. I won't say that they don't have any chance. Many possibilities have already been explained here. But it should also be expressed that MORE applicants WITH A NOMINATION, WON'T get an appointment, than those with a nomination that DO get an appointment. As I and most others recommend, hopefully your child has applied to other colleges/universities; maybe ROTC; etc... There's quite a few academy cadets and alumni who DIDN'T get an appointment the first time around. Your representative and/or senator could have had 50, 100, or more applicants. They can only give 10 nominations.

My suggestion, as hard as it might sound, is to make sure you have all your other schools and applications lined up; including ROTC. If your Son is still committed to the academy, then be prepared to start again in June/July if necessary with the next application year. Is it possible you could still get a nomination? Sure, it's possible. But it's also possible that he could be one of the 2700 who received a nomination and didn't receive an appointment. Not trying to sound doom and gloom, but this is reality. If he understands how competitive it is, he can make a better showing next cycle if he's still determined. Best of luck to you all. Mike.....

 

[Mongo]

Not trying to be a downer, but there is some reality that needs to be recognized. MORE than 4,000 applicants will receive a nomination. (453 representative with 10 names each; 100 senators with 10 names each, approximately 500 presidentials, etc...). And when the dust settles, only about 1300-1400 will actually receive an appointment. that means about 2700+ individuals WITH A NOMINATION won't get an appointment.

Prior to these 4,000+/- getting nominations, approximately 6000-6500 were considered "Qualified". Call it 3Q, competitive, or any other jargon. Basically, 6000+/- started in the position that your son/daughter are in now. Qualified.

These must be AFA specific. Not sure about WP but USNA will only have somewhere around 2500 scholastically qualified and, of those, only around 2000 that are 3Qed. Of those 3Qed, a few will not have nominations but 1500 or so will be offered appointments. Much better odds than CC is showing from AFA.

 

[Pima]

jabba

1.) So about 3,000 candidates get noms? Therefore about 1/3 of nominated candidates are offered appointments right? Also would someone who is declared a candidate BEFORE their nom have a higher chance of admission than someone who reached candidate status AFTER they recieved their nom?

The short answer is the highest WCS wins the apptmt. The timing of the nom means squat because you can't get an apptmt without a WCS and you can't get that without a nom.

Let me use my DS as an example he went to candidate and we thought that was how it worked...little did we knew his MOC submitted the slate 3 months prior to sending out his canned letter. To answer your next question he did not use principal, the letter stated that names were submitted alphabetically.

You are not the 1st trying to gain insight into the system by looking for every kernel in every post. You will not be the last. You are actually the avg candidate who just wants that BFE today and not wait until March when it is the mass mailing

I know LOAs will be popping up, but this poster obviously does not have one so let's not muddy the water.

 

[Peter]

jabba



The short answer is the highest WCS wins the apptmt. The timing of the nom means squat because you can't get an apptmt without a WCS and you can't get that without a nom.

Let me use my DS as an example he went to candidate and we thought that was how it worked...little did we knew his MOC submitted the slate 3 months prior to sending out his canned letter. To answer your next question he did not use principal, the letter stated that names were submitted alphabetically.

You are not the 1st trying to gain insight into the system by looking for every kernel in every post. You will not be the last. You are actually the avg candidate who just wants that BFE today and not wait until March when it is the mass mailing

I know LOAs will be popping up, but this poster obviously does not have one so let's not muddy the water.

So although Senator Warner has already released his slate of 10, I could still be the nominee USMA chooses? I figured at this point that another candidate already has received appointment from Warner's slate because I don't have a WCS yet. The very last thing to make my profile complete, my 1st semester college transcripts, are on their way towards West Point.

 

[Luigi59]

These must be AFA specific. Not sure about WP but USNA will only have somewhere around 2500 scholastically qualified and, of those, only around 2000 that are 3Qed. Of those 3Qed, a few will not have nominations but 1500 or so will be offered appointments. Much better odds than CC is showing from AFA.

When we speak of qualified candidates (3Q) who have nominations, USNA and USAFA are very similar.

Class of 2013 USAFA =

2,253 qualified applicants with nominations.
1,667 appointment offers.

 

[Mongo]

6500 3Qed as per CC
4000 Noms as per CC
2500 3Qed wo/Nom (6500-4000=2500)
2500 3Qed w/nom from above
1500 non3Qed w/nom (4000-2500)

So only 60% (2500/4000) of nominations go to qualified candidates while 40% (2500/6500)of qualified candidates do not receive nominations? If this is true, I would surmise that most MOCs pick via the principal/ranked alternate method which is not what they do for USNA. Also, that a few very good candidates do not receive nominations. The only other logical explaination would be a very high concentration of qualified candidates in a very few districts.

 

[usna1985]

A couple of points wrt USNA at least. Historically, some MOC noms go unfilled or not all 10 nom slots are filled -- b/c not enough candidates/qualified candidates apply in some districts. Also, some MOCs will be able to fill more than one slot each year (5 students over the course of 4 yrs means 1 extra every now and again). Very rarely, an MOC may not have any noms -- b/c he/she didn't "balance out" the noms appropriately. I mention the above only to explain the system is quite complicated -- however, it is driven by Congress and federal law so it is what it is and USNA and the other SAs can't do much about it.

I can say based on personal experience that some VERY HIGHLY qualified candidates last year did not get in. Some had zero noms. One had 3 noms.

Thus, to reinforce the points made above . . . being 3 Q'ed with at least one nom obviously greatly improves your chances. However, as noted, it's a competitive world out there and some great candidates still won't get in. And, quite honestly, that's no different than other top schools in the country.

 

[Christcorp]

These must be AFA specific. Not sure about WP but USNA will only have somewhere around 2500 scholastically qualified and, of those, only around 2000 that are 3Qed. Of those 3Qed, a few will not have nominations but 1500 or so will be offered appointments. Much better odds than CC is showing from AFA.

Are you honestly telling me that of 12,000 - 15,000 applicants to Annapolis, that only 2500 of those individuals have the minimum required ACT/GPA to get into the academy? I would be extremely shocked if that were true. Definitely possible, but I would be shocked.

 

[usna1985]

Are you honestly telling me that of 12,000 - 15,000 applicants to Annapolis, that only 2500 of those individuals have the minimum required ACT/GPA to get into the academy? I would be extremely shocked if that were true. Definitely possible, but I would be shocked.

I would note that the 12k-15k number isn't always an accurate reflection of USNA applications in that it includes at least some NROTC applicants.

Also, many of those who do apply never complete their applications. That's why I tell my candidates that step 1 is actually turning everything in.

I honestly forget the numbers, but let's say maybe 5k-6k (if that) actually complete everything. Thus, the numbers quoted above aren't quite as improbably as they sound.

Finally, more than ACT/SAT scores go into making someone "scholastically" qualified. Leadership, character, sports, activities, the "right" classes, GPA, teacher recs, etc. all factor into the equation.

 

[Mongo]

I would be extremely shocked if that were true. Definitely possible, but I would be shocked.

Definitely true so conssider yourself shocked. The cutoff level of the scholastic quals is a floating benchmark contingent upon the quality of the applicants. The board will find just enough candidates qualifed such that the 3Qs will be the minimum necessary to fill the class and provide a cushion for the few minimally qualified from less competitive slates. This is why the marginally qualified candidates who submitted their completed package early in the process will not find out their status as quickly as those who are highly qualified. Also, academically qualified candidates are, as a rule, not eligible for NAPS. This way they can capture those who just barely don't make it in instead of going to the bottom half of the 12,000 applicants.

 

[lrv61]

There is a sticky in the USAFA section that contains an ALO presentation which presents the following (somewhat dated) statistics on slide 44...

Applicants: ~9000
Qualified: ~2000
Appoinments Offered: ~1600
Admittted: 1300

I seemed to recall somewhere, most likely on the forums, ~6000 "Candidates" and ~2000 "Qualified Candidates"

Son is USAFA Candidate, waiting for a NJ nom and enjoying his last year of high school...he is leaving the number crunching to his Dad...March won't arrive soon enough...

 

[Christcorp]

Maybe that's one reason the Air Force doesn't send letters or information to the applicants saying they are 3Q. When an applicant's status changes to "Candidate", they are considered by the academy to be competitive, and/OR, has received a nomination. To be a candidate, in the air force academy application process, implies that the applicant is indeed qualified. This isn't definitive, because some may not have had their DODMRB physical done yet. But generally speaking, the individual is academically qualified; as well as the rest of their application.

I could be reading it wrong. I defer to Steve for clarification. And not being privy to every applicant's application, I really believe that I saw where there were more applicants/candidates WITH nominations, who were qualified, who didn't receive an appointment; than those who did. IOW: There were more than 1300 Air Force Academy applicants with nominations and qualified, who didn't receive appointments. (Closer to about 2500). I most definitely could be wrong. Maybe this is more accurate for air force and not Navy. I would definitely go with whatever Steve says.

P.S. I found some of the info I was using. In the "College Buzz Book" (2006 edition) they mention different colleges and requirements. They quote West Point admissions office as saying: "I'm paraphrasing, but will give the link": That approximately 10,000 become applicants: 4000 will receive nominations: 2500 are qualified (3Q) and that the average class will be about 1200. http://books.google.com/books?id=4j...orce academy applicants are qualified&f=false And if I can find the info I had on Air Force, I'll post it. But I'm sure the numbers were a little bit higher. Anyway; that's what I was getting at.

 

[Pima]

The AFA and the USNA play the system differently.

Mongo could be 1000% correct about the USNA numbers, afterall they are a BGO for the USNA.

So if he says it is basically a you're in for the USNA with at least one nom and 3Q than that should be respected.

Flipside, CC is correct about the way the AFA works the system. The change of applicant to candidate means you are competitive and will meet the board once you have a nom in hand for your WCS. It is not a done deal. The AFA does not send out 3 Q letters. Candidate means you cleared that hurdle.

I did check out that sticky and it is very dated because it was for the AFA classes of 07-10, currently we are at 15.

Anyone who has been involved with the AFA long enough knows that for the last few yrs @3K candidates get noms, and only 1600 are offered an apptmt. Most suspect that this yr because they are over the mandated 4400 cadets and the DOD slashing their budget, this yr the numbered offered an apptmt will be less than the traditional 1600...not saying get your panties in a wad out of fear, just saying, it could be 1400 instead of 1600. Again, the point is not to freak people out, but to illustrate how quickly material can become outdated, especially if you are looking at an 8 yr differential.

SAs are like the military they change, what was common place ifor the class of 2007 may not be the fact for 2015.

Again, SAs are different and operate within their confines. USMA and USNA hand out LOAs at a much, much higher rate than the AFA. That is just the way it works.

From what I have heard by others the USMA does not wait until the entire slate gets a WCS before appointing, I am not sure if these people understand that there is a difference between apptmt and charging when they stated that fact.

I tend to believe they are like the AFA and know historically what a high WCS and thus, they give the apptmt to them knowing that they will win the WCS if not for their MOC, but for the President, or Supe.

I cannot fathom that an MOC that did not give out principal has been charged their appointee yet, especially since the books have yet to close.

In the end, the importance of this conversation is to give facts about the process for the SA that you are intimately involved with, not to argue/debate the system that each SA uses.

 

[Peter]

The AFA and the USNA play the system differently.

Mongo could be 1000% correct about the USNA numbers, afterall they are a BGO for the USNA.

So if he says it is basically a you're in for the USNA with at least one nom and 3Q than that should be respected.

Flipside, CC is correct about the way the AFA works the system. The change of applicant to candidate means you are competitive and will meet the board once you have a nom in hand for your WCS. It is not a done deal. The AFA does not send out 3 Q letters. Candidate means you cleared that hurdle.

I did check out that sticky and it is very dated because it was for the AFA classes of 07-10, currently we are at 15.

Anyone who has been involved with the AFA long enough knows that for the last few yrs @3K candidates get noms, and only 1600 are offered an apptmt. Most suspect that this yr because they are over the mandated 4400 cadets and the DOD slashing their budget, this yr the numbered offered an apptmt will be less than the traditional 1600...not saying get your panties in a wad out of fear, just saying, it could be 1400 instead of 1600. Again, the point is not to freak people out, but to illustrate how quickly material can become outdated, especially if you are looking at an 8 yr differential.

SAs are like the military they change, what was common place ifor the class of 2007 may not be the fact for 2015.

Again, SAs are different and operate within their confines. USMA and USNA hand out LOAs at a much, much higher rate than the AFA. That is just the way it works.

From what I have heard by others the USMA does not wait until the entire slate gets a WCS before appointing, I am not sure if these people understand that there is a difference between apptmt and charging when they stated that fact.

I tend to believe they are like the AFA and know historically what a high WCS and thus, they give the apptmt to them knowing that they will win the WCS if not for their MOC, but for the President, or Supe.

I cannot fathom that an MOC that did not give out principal has been charged their appointee yet, especially since the books have yet to close.

In the end, the importance of this conversation is to give facts about the process for the SA that you are intimately involved with, not to argue/debate the system that each SA uses.

So correct me if I'm wrong but you are stating that USMA will not charge a non-principal MOC his/her slot until around sometime when most of the applicants should have enough of their profile in to determine a WCS for their application?

 

[Pima]

Time out

You need to grasp what charging means compared to appointment.

Charging means they charge the MOC that apptmt. It counts to one of the 5 they are allowed at any given time.

Appointing comes from the SA, and just because you have 1 nom, it doesn't mean that is how you will be charged.

For example, with your nom, you now can get apptd as one of the Supes.

There is no Superintendent nom that you can apply for, but the Supe has a limited number that can be charged to them.

This is the problem people think that just because they have a nom from a source that they were charged to them. Reality that may not be the truth and you may never find out who you are charged to. We have a friend who went to the AFA and was positive he was charged to the Sen., because that was his only nom...in fact he wasn't.

Right now it is driving you insane waiting, I am sure you are checking the portal and your mailbox daily, but the fact is they do not call March Mass Mailing as a joke.

You have an option be snoopy over the mailbox or enjoy your sr yr of hs. Trust me come July when you are at the SA and life stinks at BCT, the way to get through it will be mentally, and you will wish that you hung out with your friends instead of spending time here looking for any little sign, positive or negative.

 

[Mongo]

There is a sticky in the USAFA section that contains an ALO presentation which presents the following (somewhat dated) statistics on slide 44...

Applicants: ~9000
Qualified: ~2000
Appoinments Offered: ~1600
Admittted: 1300

I seemed to recall somewhere, most likely on the forums, ~6000 "Candidates" and ~2000 "Qualified Candidates"

Son is USAFA Candidate, waiting for a NJ nom and enjoying his last year of high school...he is leaving the number crunching to his Dad...March won't arrive soon enough...

You are correct. From more recent profiles, here is the current AFA data:

Class of 2012:
Applicants 9038
Candidate Pool 6591
Qualified Candidates 2099
Offers of Admission 1642
Admitted 1320

Class of 2013:
Applicants 9897
Candidate Pool 6940
Qualified Candidates 2253
Offers of Admission 1667
Admitted 1351

Class of 2014:
Applicants 11,627
Candidate Pool 7543
Qualified Candidates 2445
Offers of Admission 1566
Admitted 1269

One who meets the criteria of a "candidate" is not qualified but only meets the preliminary qualification necessary to open a file and complete an application.

Just as I thought, very similiar to USNA numbers.

So if he says it is basically a you're in for the USNA with at least one nom and 3Q than that should be respected.

Relatively certain that I did not say or imply this as it is not true.

 

[Pima]

That was meant as a compliment to your expertise due to the fact that you are a BGO.

 

[hockeypals]

We also just learned today that our DS did not get a congressional nomination (1st congressional district VA - 96 requests, over 600 for entire state). He had only a couple of pieces left to submit on the USNA and USAFA applications which he was in the process of finishing up this week. He had waited until he got his private pilot certificate (to include in the activities/resume sections), which he just did this week. He had his fitness tests scheduled for later this month. Everything else is complete, including the medical.

As I understand from these posts, once you do not get the nomination, there is no further recourse, other than contacting the congressman (in the event something opens up) as stated earlier in the post. My question is this: is there any reason to complete the applications? It does not seem like there is. He is also applying to several colleges with ROTC and has gotten into one of them already. We are all new to this, and are not sure what to do. Thanks.