Non-Scholarship ROTC

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by DGJ, May 4, 2012.

  1. DGJ

    DGJ New Member

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    My son applied to the AFROTC program and was not awarded a scholarship. Can he still join the AFROTC unit at the university he plans to attend and still become an officer?
     
  2. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Yes. You should call the unit at the school he plans to attend and find out the procedure. If its anything like NROTC there will be an application to fill out and also a physical form your family doctor will complete. They'll also let you know what classes he needs to enroll in.
     
  3. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    It would be good for your son to know the odds before getting too deep into the program. For example, if he knew the odds were 8%, would that change his plan? Or 40%? Good to count the risk and reward before too much investment is made (emotionally or in time).
     
  4. DGJ

    DGJ New Member

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    Would you be refering to the odds of becoming an officer or the odds of obtaining a scholarship?
     
  5. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am not going to get into % issues, but I will say, that the MAJORITY of AFROTC cadets are not scholarship. AFROTC is not like A/NROTC where the cadet/mid is tied to the college to receive a scholarship.

    DS will be commissioned in 3 weeks with a rated slot. 100% of the cadets that asked for rated got rated. 10-15% in that pool were scholarship.

    He will be fine if he gets the AFROTC way.
     
  6. CodyM'15

    CodyM'15 Member

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    Definitely not. My 100 class (freshman) began with about 65 cadets, 2 on scholarship. Scholarships were given out as the year progressed, and now my class consists of about 20 and 6 have scholarship. If you're going in without a scholarship, choose a "technical major" i.e. engineering, math and science fields. That drastically increases scholarship and EA selection chances.
     
  7. GemStateMom

    GemStateMom Member

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    From what I understand, choosing a technical major may indeed increase one's scholarship chances; however, I still feel that it may be a good idea for the cadet to pursue what they are really interested in, regardless of the tech/non tech classification. I think the cadet having a real interest/aptitude/career goal of a certain major would trump the small chance of getting a scholarship, considering their chances of completing the program and doing well would most likely be higher if they are pursuing a major they are interested in. Also, since becoming an officer is not a lifetime career for all, they also need to consider their career options once they leave service.
     
  8. DGJ

    DGJ New Member

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    His interest is actually in a "technical major", either Computer Engineering or Computer Science. Thanks for your and others input.
     
  9. Nateman15

    Nateman15 Member

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    Technical majors definitely help with ICSP (In-College Scholarship Program). I am a freshman in Mechanical Engineering and received a type 2 scholarship completely out of the blue. We have about 30 left in our 100's class. 4 got put up for ICSP and 2 of us got it, one being a civil engineer and me being mechanical. The want medical really bad as well.

    Starting out non-scholarship like I did, you basically just enroll in the classes required. For me it was a 1 credit hour class as well as a 0 credit hour class which was our Leadership Lab.

    Basically, just get in contact with the det and find out when the first meeting are and what paperwork they are going to need. I was the only one with my paperwork ready on the first day and those are the things that make you stand out. I adamantly believe I got my scholarship due to my major and the extreme effort I put into being on time to every single flight meeting or PT. It all makes an impression.

    We had 3 guys in our 100's class that got scholarships in high school. 2 of them are honestly worthless cadets. There was also some "feelings" against them starting out due to the fact that they got more attention and the commander knew them already.

    It is clear to everyone that high school scholarship cadets are all ACT and GPA. Yeah that would be nice, but I feel like it is worth more to earn it through hard work in the Detachment.
     
  10. Nateman15

    Nateman15 Member

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    Also, forget about the percentage thing. After this year, my thoughts have totally changed about all of that.

    If you give your all to the program, you will get in. It is the people that half-*** their PT or are late to things that don't make it. In the end, it is the commander who makes the decision of who stays and who goes. If he looks at your name and thinks, "yeah, he really wants to be here and deserves it more than XXXX" you are golden.

    To think of it as, "you have a XX% chance of making it" is completely wrong. We had a 93% selection rate here for FT this year. Thats really damn high. The two people that didn't make it were the two that did not give it their all. It is that simple.

    That's my two cents. :thumb:
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Nateman,

    I have to part ways with you on your posts.

    The CoC may have known them because on sites like this one, posters stress to tell the CoC they want to re-apply to the AFA prior to Day 1 ROTC. The attention was due to the fact that the cadet could get an ROTC nom., and the CoC was informed by the cadet they would re-apply.

    The CoC may be paying attention to determine if they support the cadet for the nom. It is his name on the line as an AD officer.


    The 2 that are "worthless cadets", I hope you will expound on why they are "worthless" in your mind as a C100 cadet. I am not trying to be rude, I am just trying to grasp how you judge. You are a 100, you are saying that your CFC, CVW, CWC, CoC are missing something that you see, if they are talk to your CFC.

    If the CoC is playing favoritism to scholarship recipients, than that troubles me because you are saying the AF, at least at your unit, has lost sight of what the mission is for the AF. The mission is not to graduate scholarship cadets, but the best cadets regardless of the cost to the AF.

    Worse yet, the ADAF instructors (O3/O4/O5) are up for promotion and their OPR/PRF's will reflect the success of the det. CoC could kill their careers for the scholarship cadets. There will be bullets in their file, AFROTC det awards, such as best in the nation will be seen by the promotion boards for those instructors.

    Their career depends on how successful the det is according to the AF. AFROTC best det in the nation, is their goal.
    That is true, but the fact is the way the new OML works, especially for FT the CoC has less of a voice now. It use to be 50%, now it is 35%. The ACT/SAT is part of the score, more importantly the portion that was raised due to the CoC decrease.

    This was the FY12 rate, but LY FY11 it was @55%. FT increased by 100, for FT class size of 2K. Not a big % increase. What occurred was many of the CoC's called in C200's and informed them they would not be supported in their recs. Cadets knowing LY that it was 55% voluntarily dropped AFROTC. Additionally, for non-scholarship cadets that did DoDMERB, and required waivers were informed they were DQ.

    In the end, the 40% change was more about a smaller pool eligible for selection, than an increase in selection. Apples to apples.

    I only say this because I do not want posters to believe 93% of an entering class will go to FT.
     
  12. Tigger

    Tigger Member

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    It is clear to everyone that high school scholarship cadets are all ACT and GPA. Yeah that would be nice, but I feel like it is worth more to earn it through hard work in the Detachment.[/QUOTE]

    I appreciate that you may feel that way about high school scholarship cadets but I would caution you against using words like "all" or "never" because they are "rarely" accurate:)

    My DD is the grateful recipient of an AFROTC scholarship and while she has a great GPA and strong ACT/SAT scores that's just a small part of who she is. She is a very active CAP member (served as Cadet Commander of an encampment last summer and will be Cadet Commander of another wing's encampment this summer), is a varsity rower and plays violin in our city's competitive youth orchestra. We are proud of her accomplishments but are most pleased that she is a lovely young woman who has the tenacity to pursue her dream to be an AF officer:)

    So, maybe just consider each person you meet along the way as the unique individual they are...you may be surprised:)
     
  13. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    I certainly agree that every person should be looked at as an individual and not lumped into any generalization.

    I also can understand the posters frustration. Every applicant that receives a scholarship these days have a much broader resume then just the ACT/SAT/GPA, most have well rounded EC's and Athletics. While our family's experience is with AROTC it seem to fit all the branches. My son was one of three 4yr scholarship awardees that started school Fall of 2011. Of those three my son is the only one left. The other two did not pass the PT, one decided to drop out half way through the first semester. The other did not pass the PT all year and failed the last PT given for the year, this cadet hardly showed up for anything that was not required. The cadre has now dropped him from the program. Both of these cadets had stellar resumes and very high SAT/GPA's but could not transition into the cadet life.

    While I do agree with you not to make snap judgements, I'm sure it can be frustrating for those cadets that just miss the mark for a scholarship and see other cadets squander their opportunity. My son has always felt honored to have been given the opportunity of a scholarship and has worked hard to live up to the expectations, he also says he feels for those that did not receive one only to watch others waste the opportunity that they were given.

    The transition from being a high achiever in high school to college and ROTC is not always an easy one, that to is often a surprise.
     
  14. Tigger

    Tigger Member

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    Jcleppe I understand how frustrating it can be for those students who have worked so hard, are so deserving and yet don't receive a scholarship. My daughter, like your son, feels a great sense of gratitude and a responsibility to honor the opportunity she has been given:)
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I think that is the most important thing for every cadet/mid class of 2016 to understand.

    The fact that you got a scholarship, or into your dream college is great, but reality will hit you when the folks drop you off at the school. It will hit you even more when you walk into a classroom of 200+ kids and the profs speed through the material at a faster pace than you have ever experienced, even in those AP classes. The reason why is simple. The caliber of the class has increased because the students now are all like you ...a high achiever, otherwise the college would have sent you a TWE.

    If you enter knowing that the demand and rigor will be higher than HS, much higher, you will do fine. If you think after going to orientation and setting up your schedule it is so cool and will be a snap because you have off every Friday, and no classes before noon on Monday you will be in for a shock!

    Scheduling your classes need to be a factor in your process, especially as a ROTC cadet. It maybe great to have that schedule, and trust me our kids both did it ONCE. Once because they realized that T-TH killed them with papers and exams all on the same day. DS in AFROTC especially because he had ROTC on those days too, plus AAS meetings. They also realized having Friday off meant nothing since everybody else was in class until 2 anyway.

    JMPO, but schedule your classes evenly across the week, and if you can have the hardest and easiest class on the same day. OBTW, kids tend to think Psych or Eng are the easiest, and they are the classes that tend to hurt them in the very beginning because they assume it is the easy A and profs know that fact. They are also the classes that are the 100+ size.
     
  16. Non Ducor Duco

    Non Ducor Duco I am not led, I lead

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    You may be in a 100+ class room, but don't be afraid to go up to them on the first day of class and introduce yourself. My high school teachers always painted college professors as big bad wolves who who sped through everything at an inhuman pace and couldn't give a damn about their students. Yes, the classes move at a faster pace, but I found that all of my professors loved to answer questions and would go back and repeat themselves if you asked. Some prof's have crappy handwriting, but don't be afraid to ask them what the words are if you can't read them. That's how my Econ prof was, when the ppl sitting next to me couldn't tell me what the words were, I raised my hand and asked. Did that constantly throughout the semester and he never failed to clarify, it was funny to see the grateful ripple of motion from the rest of the class who had been suffering in silence.

    Be respectful, but remember, they are there to provide a service to you. You are a paying customer. If you don't get it, go to them and ask for their time, they're PAID to be there to a certain period of time. Not only that, they WANT to help you. At the end of each semester, I wasn't just a number, I was a recognizable face and every one of my teachers knew me on a first name basis. It can also make a difference if you're on the cusp between letter grades. A couple of my professors opened up the semester by saying that they like to have dialogue with students and they love questions and feedback. They wanted to learn our names (my chem prof made an effort to learn the names of every student in her 2 classes of about 74 students, I think she did it too, at least with everyone who came to class) and said that when it comes to the final grade, they take the knowledge they have of that student into consideration. An example that one prof gave: "Say I look down and see that Taylor has a 89. Taylor's been to almost every class, participated in the discussions, and come to me for tutoring. She's worked hard, I like her, I'm going to bump her up to an 90. Now I see that Johnny also has an 89. Johnny...Johnny...I don't know a Johnny, he never came to class. I guess he gets an 89". They have that power and will use it if you give them a good reason to.
     
  17. Marist College ROTC

    Marist College ROTC Member

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    This is especially true if you are a non-contracted freshman Cadet chasing an on-campus scholarship. Choose your classes carefully. First semester freshman year is not the ideal time to take Arabic I, Calculus, Intro to Chemistry, Statistics I, and Human Anatomy. Take a balance of hard and easy classes. talk to the upperclassmen. Prof A's Chem class might be easier than Prof B's Chem class. If you are not a Chem major, you should take the easier class. Some professors are more likely to be understanding of the vagaries of the ROTC schedule and give extensions when you need them.

    Here is an example of 2 typical Cadets:

    Cadet A arrives on campus a little bit anxious. He/She is concerned about the transition to college/ROTC life. Cadet A takes their academic advisor's advice on courses and takes American History, World Religions, Statistics, Information Technology 101, and Business Management 101. Cadet A finds a mentor at ROTC (MSIII) and fades into the background. Cadet A occasionally asks routine, polite questions like "Do you have any tips on how to improve my run time ?" Cadet A is always on time, never in trouble, and plays nice with fellow Cadets. Cadet A focuses on the present tasks at hand. Need to pass APFT, Need to complete DODMERB, need to get an A on this paper, Need to learn standard ROTC EPW search techniques. Cadet A gets a 240 on the APFT (80,80,80) and a 3.3 GPA. Cadet A is selected for an on-campus 3 year Scholarship.

    Cadet B arrives on campus ready to set the world on fire. He/She is concerned about how to study abroad while combining Arabic and Mandarin with a Nuclear Physics/Bio-Chemistry double major. Cadet B does not take their academic advisor's advice on courses and takes Arabic(taught in Mandarin), Nuclear Physics 101, Biology 101, Chemistry 101, and Advance Calculus for People That Are Better Than Everyone Else. Cadet B's mentors are Stephen Hawking and Whoever Just Won a Nobel Prize In Something I've Never Heard Of. Cadet B is always late but always has a great excuse such as "Prof C needed me to stay late to demonstrate perfect dissection technique to her grad students." Cadet B annoys fellow Cadets with their arrogance. Cadet B focuses on the future. Need to get my Harvard Grad School application completed, Need to master the intricacies of BDE level OPORDs. Cadet B occasionally asks ridiculous questions such as "When will I know if I have been selected as CDT BN CDR ?" and "To get promoted to GEN would it be better for me to be an ABN BDE CDR an SF Group CDR or a CIA Arabic Nuclear Physicist Secret Agent ?" Cadet B gets a 450 on the APFT (150,150,150) and a 2.8 GPA (despite filing 15 complaints that Prof D should have granted a 2 year extension on the final project because Cadet B was too busy being really awesome). Cadet B is not selected for a scholarship because he/she never bothered to complete DODMERB and transfers to University X and repeats the same process.

    Bottom Line: Cadet A and Cadet B may very well end up with the same GPA after 8 semesters once each cadet has taken an equal number of easy and hard classes, however a 4.0 senior year will not help you get a scholarship that is typically awarded freshman year.
     
  18. enived2

    enived2 Member

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    Marist - That was an awesome example! Made me laugh out loud. Thanks!
     

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