NROTC Disciplined

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by gbo3, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. gbo3

    gbo3 Member

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    Looking for some advice or wisdom here.

    My DD was called in to her XO's office today for a meeting. According to her, when it was over she was told that if her name came up again for any reason she was out of the program, and her command billet was rescinded.

    She went into the meeting not know clearly what it was about. To the best of her knowledge she has not done anything wrong. For the past 3 1/2 years she has been an outstanding Midshipman.

    She was not allowed to ask questions or defend herself anyway. She was simply told what would happen, not what did happen.

    Another, MID, a marine option, her boy friend was also called in for a meeting withe XO. Don't know the results of that meeting.

    She was blind sided by what happened and very confused. She was headed to class when we last talked to I only got highlights.

    --what recourse does she have?

    --Can she defend herself or is she able to ask questions and find out why she was punished?

    I'm not versed in the military procedure, or if that even applies here, but shouldn't or isn't there any procedure to defend one self. She mentioned
    Capt. MAST and then had to run.

    baffled dad looking for help
     
  2. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I'd be baffled too. It's hard to defend herself when she doesn't even know what she's defending against. My DS's unit would hold a Performance Review Board for any offense (her Captain's Mast I guess). They would know what the issue is and they could defend themselves and enlist others to at least write letters to the PRB. Perhaps she means there is one scheduled for her? Who knows? Too bad you couldn't have a fuller conversation but I'm sure you will this evening.

    If a Captain's Mast is being scheduled she should find out what the issue was as part of the orders to attend. If it's not, she needs to find out so she can correct the problem whether it's a real issue or a misunderstanding. Perhaps another meeting with the XO or someone else who might know would be in order... but it's always best to go back to the horse's... mouth.

    Since the boyfriend seems to be involved I wonder if there is some fraternization issue or something, but I couln't find anything regarding that in any online midshipman guidebook.

    I certainly hope this was all some misunderstanding, and if so, I also hope the XO has the ability to eat crow. Not all do. Please keep us posted.
     
  3. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Did your daughter have a NROTC 4 year Scholarship?

    I only ask because a while ago another there was a thread posted by a parent who's son was dis-enrolled from NROTC within just a couple weeks of his graduation for being slightly overweight. There was a long discussion regarding why the navy waited so long and never identified the problem earlier with the mid to make sure it didn't happen. The parent posting had mentioned the cutbacks in NROTC and wondered if they were looking for ways to cutback. I am not assuming this is the case with your daughter, just curious if she was on scholarship and wondering if it might be related.

    It seems very odd that the XO did not mention what she had done to warrent a meeting, maybe more will come out of the meeting with her BF.

    The Navy sure works different then the Army, my son during the end of his 3rd year made the mistake of sending an email to a higher ranking cadet calling him out on something he had done, while my son was correct in his intent he should have never sent the email. He was called into the office, they made it very clear what the problem was and why he was there. Why the XO would not say the reason would be frustrating at the least.

    The best thing for your daughter now is walk the straight and narrow, stay out of any situation that might be an issue, don't miss any classes and stay within height/weight regulations, and pass all the physical requirements, in short, don't give the command an excuse to dis-enroll her from the program, it sounds like they may be looking for such an excuse.
     
  4. gbo3

    gbo3 Member

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    Jcleppe

    yes, she is a on a scholarship, so walking the straight an narrow is a must.

    but she thought she had been.

    I read the piece on the Mid who was dropped just short of graduation, that's scary stuff. Her PFT (I think thats right) is just about perfect, she has been the fitness officer for the past year.

    I guess there are a couple underclassmen that may be raising some sort of stink and she may be a victim of guilt by association.

    Her concern was there was no paper trail that what ever happen, jumped chain of command and went straight to HQ instead of up the chain. I guess the MOI furious about something before she was called in.

    It sounds like some really stupid sophomoric stuff is going on in the background that might be part the problem and she has ended up the victim. If thats the case, she deserves to be heard.


    waiting to find out more....
     
  5. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    If something untoward went down (let's say hazing or something just for the sake of argument) and she was not the perpetrator but was present and didn't stop it, then NROTC will not consider her to be an innocent bystander. Of course we don't know what happened yet and I again hope this is all a misunderstanding and that at worse she is, in fact, an innocent bystander... just wanted to mention a possible perspective to keep in mind when you hear the facts. I know I have had to explain the cadre's perspective to my son when he thought he had done no wrong but was a victim. Fortunately it was nothing serious. Hang tough Dad! I'm sure you're going a bit nuts! I would be! :thumb:
     
  6. enived2

    enived2 Member

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    My DS is a Marine Option scholarship student, sophomore. His battalion made it VERY clear that there was to be no fraternization...Between Navy OR Marines. It seems like that may be an issue since they called her boyfriend in too. Hopefully, it is not a huge deal for her and it all works out. Good luck!
     
  7. gbo3

    gbo3 Member

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    I'm not sure on fraternization aspect and what the Battalion's view is on that. There are a number of them that have relations with fellow mids.
    I know the past there was concerns of about mids dating OCS students. But to the best of my knowledge this is not the case.
     
  8. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    It could be a case of getting caught or not getting caught if it is indeed fraternization. DS's previous MOI always dismissed them after Friday PT with "If you drink, don't get caught. If you tap it, wrap it." I think they're realistic about them being college students but you don't flaunt the rules publicly.

    But its all conjecture at this point. GBO, I think you have us all as worked up and concerned as I'm sure you are. And regardless of what it is and if it was a misunderstanding or not... she at least hasn't been tossed from the program and would only need to keep her "nose clean" for six more months... so we already know the worse case.
     
  9. NorwichDad

    NorwichDad Member

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    I would advise you give DD some time to allow DD to give you the full story. She needs to find out. Your getting bits and pieces. It is out of your control. Just tell her your 100% behind her for now. As things clarify you can better advise her.

    Best Wishes to you and her.
     
  10. gbo3

    gbo3 Member

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    She requested an appointment with her XO to discuss the matter in the next few days after things calm down.
     
  11. basilrathbone

    basilrathbone Member

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    Maybe someone in the Navy will chime in here, but Captain’s MAST is pretty serious stuff. To my knowledge it is preceded by an XOI (XO investigation). Was your daughter’s meeting an XOI? Was she only threatened with loss of her command billet or did that happen already? Was MAST mentioned as a possibility if she got in further trouble or is she going to MAST? No paper trail at all seems odd. I would have thought there would be some sort of counseling first.

    I may be a particularly suspicious mom but if one of our NROTC mids called me with this scenario, to be honest my first response would be, “Cool story, now tell me what’s going on.” While it’s theoretically possible that they had been model midshipmen for most of 4 years yet were out of the blue threatened with MAST, were not allowed to defend themselves, and weren’t given any reason why, it would at the very least give me pause. As a parent I would want to be a supportive advisor for her rather than a victim’s advocate. She would need to be very proactive and I would encourage our mid to make sure she had her own paper trail with any positive or negative feedback from the command particularly anything that she had already signed. It sounds like your daughter is already moving down that path if she is meeting again with her XO.

    She needs to know what it is that the command believes she did wrong, not whether or not she feels it is wrong. If emotions are running high on all sides, I would be very cautious about letting her consider herself a victim since that may encourage her to let me or someone else fight her battle which could be damaging for her in the long run. If it turns out she shares some culpability in a situation where the command reacted emotionally with too much haste, then parent intervention could possibly cause the command to dig in their heels and escalate a situation that may have diffused on its own. I think you're being very smart to let her handle it. If it turns out that she has been unjustly charged and is nevertheless headed to MAST, then that would be an ideal time for the parent to step in alongside her and get very very smart on both the process and the charges against her.

    Occasionally, my kids call with some drama that causes me to spin up and lose sleep while I try to consider every possible option to help. Then the next day I call in a haggard state and they tell me, “What? Oh yeah… That ended up being no big deal. I guess I was just venting.” I hope you get that call tomorrow!
     
  12. NorwichDad

    NorwichDad Member

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    I think that is extremely wise of her. Things may indeed calm down. It is the best approach for her.

    Good Luck to her
     
  13. Aglahad

    Aglahad Member

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    Usually there is a paper trail with these types of things in ROTC which includes counselling, conduct meetings etc.. I find it odd that she has no clue what could bring her into a immediate "Captain's Mast" and the fact her boyfriend is in the same situation is very interesting. I am not accusing your daughter of lying (about not having any knowledge regarding the the reason behind the meeting) or anything, but it perplexes me how both could be called in for meetings ASAP all the while each has no clue what's going on.
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Unless I missed it, the OP did not say if her DD's BF was younger. If he is, i.e. a sophomore, reading the post the DD would be a sr., than fraternization would be an issue because you have a POC and GMC (AFROTC terms, not sure if that is NROTC terms). If he is a POC than that should not be an issue at all, unless the two report to one another directly as far as chain of command goes.

    The USNA has dating rules, and I believe it is a plebe cannot date an upperclassman, but they also give dispensations for couples. I.E. the couple were dating in hs prior to the 2nd mids arrival. If they know of couples dating they try to make sure that the direct chain never occurs.

    This is a gut wrenching tight rope for her to be walking 6 months prior to commissioning, especially as a scholarship cadet. Losing her commission can create a financial burden. It is a tight rope because you don't want to stir up the hornet's nest even more, yet you want the ability to find where that nest is located so you don't stir it up again.

    If her BF was pulled in the same day, you really need to assume it is about them as a couple. No offense, but your priority is to protect her, not him. They may have to knock off the relationship for 6 months until she commissions. Upon commissioning they can resume the relationship. At our DS's commissioning ceremony, a girl had her BF, an alumi from the det. pin her butter bars on. She turned around and than pinned on his 1st Lt. (O2) bars on him. As soon as she was finished, in front of hundreds of people, he dropped to his knee and proposed. They were dating on the QT when he was a Sr. Went public the day he commissioned.

    As harsh as that might seem, it will also be good in a way. The military lifestyle as a couple is filled with separation due to TDY's, deployments and schools. As a joint AD military couple the likelihood that the next few yrs going through training schools, and cruises that they will be together 365 days a yr is unlikely. Trust, faith and certainty that this is true love will be required for as long as both, or even 1 serve AD during these separations. If he or she 6 months from now, the length of a cruise, has had a wandering eye, or emotionally able to move on, instead of counting days, than the det. did them both some good for their emotional future. They also did some good by pounding into their mind the line that can't be crossed from a Navy perspective.

    It is hard, and if this is truly the case regarding fraternization, she will be angry, upset, tempted to sneak around behind the dets back, etc. However, that is where you step in and remind her, she is to become an officer in 6 mos., and as an officer if she counseled an enlisted member for the same reason, and they failed to follow that order what would she do? Remove the emotion, and I am betting she would do exactly what the CC was telling her. Her commitment right now is to herself. If she can't separate for 6 mos. than what will she do when she is AD on a cruise? Or her first assignment that is 1000 miles away? The Navy will do everything in their ability to assign married couples to the same theater, but the key word is MARRIED. If he is a soph, they have at least 2 more yrs of living apart. If he is sr. like her, and they have different career assignments, they will attend different schools, and because they are not married, they won't get a joint assignment. Thus, they still will have more than 6 months apart, esp. since they won't marry until the earliest the day after graduation, where they probably already have their permanent stations, and that is not easy to go back and get it changed to joint.

    Best of luck.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  15. bruno

    bruno Retired Staff Member

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    Speculation doesn't help. As a fairly experienced Parent at this point I am certain that there is a darn site more that was told to the daughter here and she either knows and didn't relay that to parent (not exactly unheard of), or would have known if she was listening when she was called in. The military- from all branches -doesn't just decide to punish someone and I can think of no circumstances where you aren't told why you are being considered for punishment. So if she truly doesn't know- then going back in to the XO and asking for clarification would seem to be the only prudent advice that anyone aboard this site can offer. Certainly- speculating about the myriad of reasons that one could get dropped adds nothing to the OPs understanding of what is actually going on and will only add to stress for both them and the kid. You can only give advice when you know something concrete.

    And I can tell you from personal experience- as a parent all you can give is advice- beyond that you discover that your kid has become an independent actor and you no longer have the ability to intervene.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  16. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    +1 Bruno

    Couldn't agree more
     
  17. Darrowboat

    Darrowboat Prospective Officer

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    Great posts here.

    Please keep us updated with any new information!
     
  18. Oldsalt

    Oldsalt Member

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    Gbo3,
    Check your PMs.
     
  19. gbo3

    gbo3 Member

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    update

    Daughter met with her XO on Thursday after a couple days to collect thoughts. I passed along my opinion mixed with advice from several of you (and thanks!)

    its a long long story, so I'll condense it down.

    DD met with XO, and her Lt advisor. She did as I suggested, acknowledged that there were a few minor scrapes in the past, she had moved on and had made a concerted effort to improve her performance as a leader. Then asked XO to explain what was going on and permit her to do the same. They had a very open and frank discussion and tensions on both sides were put at ease.

    She was able to set the record straight. (since she was never given that opportunity prior.

    She explained what she felt had been the problem: two mids that have a problem with her and have since freshman o. they have a habit of jumping chain of command and have several times for minor things taking complaints up the ladder. Knowing this and their history of picking a fight and *****ing about everything, DD had given them a very wide berth with little to no contact other that what was needed. (there are to many extenuating issues with this person to get into, slacker seems to fit well)

    an issue came up a few weeks ago that her bf was involved in, it was a very minor misunderstanding of a schedule. One of the parties involved was put out and felt they were being used. Turns out it was a very simple misunderstanding. However this person ran to staff side and said they were singled out again.

    (sorry I don't want to give specifics)

    longstory short. DD and BF called in because their name came up again. (might add this is a whole new command side that came on this fall, non of them have had any dealings with DD and her BF in the past, they both had a great working relationship with past staff side)

    Thats when they were called before the XO.

    There was no paperwork, there was no investigation. One sided accusation

    XO chewed them out (separately).

    I their meeting Thursday, she asked to explain herself and the situation as she saw it. She explained that in all of the prior incidences, staff side did nothing to get both sides of the story there was never any investigation. Once she explained this to the XO new light was shed.

    In the end she a had a very productive meeting with the XO and discussed some of the leadership issues that lead to the situation and what could be done to prevent a situation like this in the future.

    XO explained that (he may have been to harsh) this was not a big deal in the whole world picture. She responded that to her and other mids it was a big deal, because right now this is the only world they know and he threatened to take it away, she had a right to be concerned and ask questions.

    I know my dd has a bit of wild side, but her heart and mind are in the right place. I never doubted her. Probably here biggest failing is wanting things done right and very little tolerance to those who "don't give a damn" and think they are entitled to things they are not.

    One thing the XO did tell her and I believe he is correct and she sees it now, was when she pulled back her contact with the problemed mids, she put up a wall that others perceived wrongly. She should have continued to engage but with advice from her leaders.

    In the end it looks like things are better, she is on good footing with the XO

    XO sees problems on his command side and is working to correct them.

    Two problemed mids that started this mess have been disciplined.

    I'm breathing better.

    Daughter is smiling for the first time in weeks and finals are almost over.


    Thank all of you for your concern and advice. I'll keep you posted as to further actions if any.

    this is scarey stuff and shouldn't be taken lightly. When anyone threatens dis-enrollment it gets serious!




    postscript: there was never any mention or concern of fraternization. More the problem was if BFs name was mentioned in regards to anything, DD's name would be right there in same sentence. I've been beating my head on the wall trying to get that one across though.
     
  20. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am not aware of the command structure in NROTC. What rank O2,3,4,5 is the XO?

    Just curious.
     

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