NROTC Navy Nursing Corps

[aglages]

Cool, you are in the SON out of high school (my school just implemented this a few years back after I was already in) the failure/kick out rate is almost the exact same with pre reqs only the paperwork is different.

In MOST of the direct entry programs the pre-screening is done before being admitted to the college. The selection process of accepting only 120 applicants out of 1100 generally insures that those selected have demonstrated good HS study skills and have the ability to successfully complete the SON courses. Is it perfect? No....but quite a few manage to successfully complete their BSN degrees.

I honestly think it's a horrible idea for direct entry, there is a reason why pre-med/dental/law all have pre reqs prior to admission to weed out applicants.

Yes there is. Call me cynical but the reason is money. Instead of saying to pre-med/dental/law (and nursing students at some colleges) that your previous grades / SAT scores probably indicate that you will not succeed in your anticipated major and we only have limited spots for those that want that major, the colleges say "Come give us your money and enroll" with the full knowledge that only a small portion will continue on to be doctors ect. They know that once enrolled (and both a mental and monetary commitment has been made) that students are more likely to stay in the same college when they change majors. What happens to your fellow nursing students that do NOT gain entry to the SON? I'm sure most either change majors and STAY in your school, or re-take the classes they did not do well in and re-apply. Either way the school profits. Which is OK but let's not confuse this monetary decision with some higher ethical/educational reason or a more "insightful" method of selecting nursing students.

As for 2.5 I find that rather low for most schools out here on the west coast with at least most requiring a "B" (not B-) or better in pre and co reqs. Obviously this differs from school to school, but if you are pulling out a 2.5-3.0 in a your first 1-2 years the rest of nursing school will not be kind.

The 2.5 is the overall CGPA. Nursing core classes (and clinicals) usually require a higher CGPA. Are you suggesting that west coast nursing programs require higher than a 2.5 in ALL college classes taken?

 

[aglages]

Anyone have any comparisons of the three or suggestions on where to find objective information on pros and cons of each branch for nursing?

My daughter had ROTC nursing scholarship offers to Army, Navy and Air Force. IMHO....nursing is very similar in all branches. That said, I think the Army does offer some very nice training options that your daughter may not have available in other branches.

My daughter chose Air Force because she felt that the active duty day-to-day lifestyle of AF nurses appealed to her the most. Obviously a personal choice that each person needs to make for themselves.

Good luck to you and your daughter.

 

[Aglahad]

In MOST of the direct entry programs the pre-screening is done before being admitted to the college. The selection process of accepting only 120 applicants out of 1100 generally insures that those selected have demonstrated good HS study skills and have the ability to successfully complete the SON courses. Is it perfect? No....but quite a few manage to successfully complete their BSN degrees.

Yes there is. Call me cynical but the reason is money. Instead of saying to pre-med/dental/law (and nursing students at some colleges) that your previous grades / SAT scores probably indicate that you will not succeed in your anticipated major and we only have limited spots for those that want that major, the colleges say "Come give us your money and enroll" with the full knowledge that only a small portion will continue on to be doctors ect. They know that once enrolled (and both a mental and monetary commitment has been made) that students are more likely to stay in the same college when they change majors. What happens to your fellow nursing students that do NOT gain entry to the SON? I'm sure most either change majors and STAY in your school, or re-take the classes they did not do well in and re-apply. Either way the school profits. Which is OK but let's not confuse this monetary decision with some higher ethical/educational reason or a more "insightful" method of selecting nursing students.

The 2.5 is the overall CGPA. Nursing core classes (and clinicals) usually require a higher CGPA. Are you suggesting that west coast nursing programs require higher than a 2.5 in ALL college classes taken?

In my opinion and experience pre-screening in high school doesn't hold as much weight as you would think going into college. Do high SAT scores/gpa indicate success? Not necessarily. Nursing school (especially with ROTC) is all about time management and study skills. What is the difference with getting kicked out for not maintaining the nursing pre req GPA and not getting in because of a low nursing pre req gpa? Nothing. Does non-direct entry help keep students at the school? Maybe, but I really don't see nursing students who failed out scrambling to other schools to trying and get into another program. Most realize the career is harder than they thought and move on while staying at their original school. Pre req difficulty at schools vary (a lot of people take them at CCs because it is easier) but in general pre reqs are designed to fail people. They are meant to give new freshman a dose of stress to see if they can hack it. I don't care if you are valedictorian, 2200 SAt or 3.9 hs gpa it doesn't mean squat. Can you successfully attend PT/FTXs while knowing you have a Biochem test and pathophysiology quiz the next Monday? Those are the real questions.

My TL;DR version: High school success does not have as large of a role in college/nursing success as you would think. Why can we not just accept students to med school without taking the MCAT or excelling in pre reqs. Because the MCAT and pre reqs are precursors set to see if the student will succeed in med school...just like nursing. Also in my observations the direct-entry seemed to mask the sense of urgency in studying and class work because they were "already-in" even though we know maintaining status is all based on GPA.

Oh and 2.5 GPA pertains to core nurses classes (although if you are getting a 2.5 you are struggling) most Junior or Seniors it at 3.0 or better because they have gotten the rhythm down.....The B or better was for pre and co reqs.

 

[aglages]

In my opinion and experience pre-screening in high school doesn't hold as much weight as you would think going into college.

What is your experience in this area? Clearly colleges use GPA and standardized test scores to determine who to admit to their schools. While I'll agree that there MIGHT be a better method of projecting who might succeed in college and who won't, clearly this method seems to be the best that most schools can figure out.

Do high SAT scores/gpa indicate success? Not necessarily.

Again, while not necessarily indicating success, I believe that previous academic success (HS GPA) and good standardized test scores (ACT/SAT) do indicate a better likelihood of college success. You are aware that when competing for ROTC scholarships and service academy admissions that these two areas are considered heavily...right?

Nursing school (especially with ROTC) is all about time management and study skills.

Most difficult college majors (including engineering) and ROTC are all about time management and study skills. Nursing and ROTC does not have a monopoly on needing these skills.

What is the difference with getting kicked out for not maintaining the nursing pre req GPA and not getting in because of a low nursing pre req gpa? Nothing.

Agreed. However, I believe that by being MORE selective in who they select before admitting freshman, that direct entry nursing programs are able to keep many more of their entering freshman class than the 1+3 year programs. I seem to recall that in your school that only 80-100 students actually are able to "get into" the SON out of 300 applicants. In my daughters school, 120 out of 1100 are selected before the freshman year and about 85% eventually graduate. You also mentioned that "Over the last few years my school has had a 20% success rate with nurses getting into as well as maintaining them nursing school status". Again the direct entry numbers are substantially higher than what you are quoting.

Does non-direct entry help keep students at the school? Maybe, but I really don't see nursing students who failed out scrambling to other schools to trying and get into another program. Most realize the career is harder than they thought and move on while staying at their original school.

Clearly if they stay in the same college that they initially enrolled then you have validated my point about why some colleges are less discerning who they accept into their "Pre" nursing programs. Basically enroll as many as possible because even those that are not eventually admitted into the SON will continue to be tuition paying students in SOME major.

Also in my observations the direct-entry seemed to mask the sense of urgency in studying and class work because they were "already-in" even though we know maintaining status is all based on GPA.

This is difficult for me to fathom. Direct entry nursing students know that they must maintain a certain CGPA but because they are already "in" the SON they don't feel a sense of urgency to study and do class work? Where are you performing your "observations"?

Oh and 2.5 GPA pertains to core nurses classes (although if you are getting a 2.5 you are struggling) most Junior or Seniors it at 3.0 or better because they have gotten the rhythm down.....The B or better was for pre and co reqs.

I think that if the minimum requirement is a 2.5 CGPA and your current CGPA is 2.5....then you are struggling at any school, in any major whether it is direct entry or not.

Question(s) for you: Why do you think the Air Force and Navy ROTC scholarship programs require their students to actually be enrolled in a SON before receiving their scholarship? If the 1+3 or 2+2 programs are better why not just award them to entering freshmen in those programs or better yet....wait for all students to complete their first year of college? Why only award the freshman scholarships to students in the direct entry programs?

 

[Aglahad]

What is your experience in this area? Clearly colleges use GPA and standardized test scores to determine who to admit to their schools. While I'll agree that there MIGHT be a better method of projecting who might succeed in college and who won't, clearly this method seems to be the best that most schools can figure out.

Again, while not necessarily indicating success, I believe that previous academic success (HS GPA) and good standardized test scores (ACT/SAT) do indicate a better likelihood of college success. You are aware that when competing for ROTC scholarships and service academy admissions that these two areas are considered heavily...right?

Most difficult college majors (including engineering) and ROTC are all about time management and study skills. Nursing and ROTC does not have a monopoly on needing these skills.

Agreed. However, I believe that by being MORE selective in who they select before admitting freshman, that direct entry nursing programs are able to keep many more of their entering freshman class than the 1+3 year programs. I seem to recall that in your school that only 80-100 students actually are able to "get into" the SON out of 300 applicants. In my daughters school, 120 out of 1100 are selected before the freshman year and about 85% eventually graduate. You also mentioned that "Over the last few years my school has had a 20% success rate with nurses getting into as well as maintaining them nursing school status". Again the direct entry numbers are substantially higher than what you are quoting.

Clearly if they stay in the same college that they initially enrolled then you have validated my point about why some colleges are less discerning who they accept into their "Pre" nursing programs. Basically enroll as many as possible because even those that are not eventually admitted into the SON will continue to be tuition paying students in SOME major.

This is difficult for me to fathom. Direct entry nursing students know that they must maintain a certain CGPA but because they are already "in" the SON they don't feel a sense of urgency to study and do class work? Where are you performing your "observations"?

I think that if the minimum requirement is a 2.5 CGPA and your current CGPA is 2.5....then you are struggling at any school, in any major whether it is direct entry or not.

Question(s) for you: Why do you think the Air Force and Navy ROTC scholarship programs require their students to actually be enrolled in a SON before receiving their scholarship? If the 1+3 or 2+2 programs are better why not just award them to entering freshmen in those programs or better yet....wait for all students to complete their first year of college? Why only award the freshman scholarships to students in the direct entry programs?

Of course there is standardized testing when it comes into getting a college in general but does the writing section on the SAT have to do with nursing school as opposed to a lab practical exam in physiology class? In addition, standardized testing is often skewed when it comes to determining academic success. I have seen quite a number of bright students excel in pre-med, engineering and pre-law yet their SAT/ACT scores were so so at best. Granted, these students will need to step it up when it comes to the MCAT and BAR eventually but we are talking about pre-nursing students who have never been to college in this scenario. The best way to assess a student in my opinion after being in nursing school for 4 years is to throw some classes at them and see who can handle it. GPA? High school is GPA so inflated and varied when it comes to classes, what high school or area you from I don't even consider it a good gauge.

You are referring to gpa and the SATs when it comes to ROTC. Ya I can see the value for handing out general line scholarships but we are not talking about line we are talking about specific nursing scholarships. My above posted stated that even a few nursing hopefuls who were booted from ROTC were in fact valedictorians with 4.0s. With this we have to factor difficulty when it comes to each nursing school. My school had a good 3ish pre req professors before we went direct entry that were hard-asses and knew their role fully. First day of class: "If any of you want to be CRNAs, NP or ER nurses you will need to get by me" If that's not motivation I don't know what is.

I think I stated before that my school is now direct entry. I help tutor pre-nursing students and before the switch I sensed a greater sense of urgency when studying and focus. Granted, we both know they need to maintain a certain GPA to stay but there is psychological effect knowing you are already technically in the school.

The 300 applicants was campus based, not including God knows how many transfer students from the local CCs.

Where does my experience come from? 4th year nursing school, battalion head nurse, nursing tutor, medical field jobs, meetings with many military nurses from various branches, conferences etc...

Your questions: I think we should only give three year nursing scholarships with an option to go back and pay back the freshman year. You can not determine success until you have something to evaluate tangibly. How many students go in as pre-med and drop out a year later? By far the majority are either gone or struggling. However, if we looked at their SAT scores a lot would seem like shoe ins for med school. I don't know why pre-nursing is not reasonable when EVERY profession program ranging from PT/OT to law school has "pre" schooling. Nursing is a professional degree as well.


Are you a nurse? What do you see as the biggest advantage of direct-entry?

 

[aglages]

Your questions: I think we should only give three year nursing scholarships with an option to go back and pay back the freshman year.

Why would this apply to only nursing scholarships? I have read on this site that the numbers of AROTC scholarship recipients that don't make through the first year of AROTC is VERY high. Why shouldn't this plan apply to all AROTC scholarship students?

You can not determine success until you have something to evaluate tangibly.

This isn't completely correct. You cannot absolutely determine success until you have something to evaluate tangibly. You can get a feel for trends and likelihood based on previous experience and testing. Is it absolutely correct? No. But will previous experience (HS grades) and standardized tests give a good indication of who probably will succeed? I think yes. As does ROTC, the SAs and most civilian colleges. Sorry you think we're all wrong.

How many students go in as pre-med and drop out a year later?

First...,their is no such major as "Pre-Med". Students interested in eventually taking the Medcat and applying to Med Schools take certain required classes. In effect they are "non declared" or biology/chemistry majors. In fact "pre-med" students can be psychology majors....or almost ANY major. How many start off thinking that some day they want to become medical doctors? A ton. How many make it? I've heard about 10%. Are colleges doing these students a favor by "allowing" everyone to pursue the courses with the hope of someday becoming a medical doctor, or are they doing themselves a favor by bringing in and keeping students that will (in possibly 90% of the time) eventually major in something else?

Where is the comparison between "pre-med" majors and nurses? Nurses are not taking 3/4 years of classes to THEN apply to med school. In a direct entry nursing program there are often graduation rates of 80%+. Often times these graduation rates are higher than the graduation rates for most of the other majors in the same college. If they can get into a direct entry program, nursing students tend to be very serious about their studies and their graduation rates tend to reflect that. Of course maybe I'm just looking at the good/discerning direct entry programs. Perhaps some schools are accepting almost everyone and their graduation rates reflect that decision.

Are you a nurse?

No...but I seep with one. My wife is a nurse with both a BSN & a MSN. Her sister also has both degrees. Both work in nursing education. My daughter and niece are both BSN nursing students. Also several cousins. I have had some exposure to the profession.

What do you see as the biggest advantage of direct-entry?

From a students perspective I see it as re-assuring that you are not going to experience a bloodbath at the end of the first or second year of school. That as long as you (as with most students) maintain a certain CGPA, you have a spot in the SON. That the SON has enough confidence in your success that they have selected you from a huge pool of applicants and also that the SON is able to focus all it's efforts on preparing you and 120 of your classmates instead of 300+ of which 2/3 won't ever make it into the school.....let alone graduate.

I've already explained why I think the non-direct method of entry is a financial decision for schools that use it. In fairness though, it does offer opportunities to those that because of financial need (or choice) decided to take their first year or two at a community college, and those that (for whatever reason) were not able to enroll in a direct entry program.

Let me just summarize this since we seem to be beating a dead (or dying) horse:
Take 120 nursing students in a direct entry nursing program and look at the graduation rate four years later; I am sure you will find a higher graduation rate than a non-direct program that loses 2/3 or even higher of all it's students before they are allowed into the SON. If the ultimate goal is to educate and train professional nurses, which the country and military both need, then the direct entry method seems IMHO to be the fairest to the students AND to satisfy that goal.

 

[hiker]

Good discussion, I forwarded link to my DD. She was a direct-entry out of high school and had high academic stats. She carried AP credits into the program for AP Calc, Bio and Chem an so far she seems to be balancing it well. She told me she got a 97 on her first A+P exam, but she knows the tough stuff is coming and that is why she wanted to do Ranger Challenge this year, since she fears that she will not be able to do it in the future.

She was a three season athlete and captain (soccer, basketball, and track) in high school and is used to good time management. The ROTC unit seems to be meeting her need to be involved on a team. She loves the Army program and is looking forward to the NSTP between her Junior and Senior years. She told me that she will be taking the MSIII program next year and going to LDAC between her soph and Jr years. She said they do this because of the Clinical schedule in the Jr year for the nurses and the NSTP that is available (although optional I believe).

Thanks for the great input.

 

[aglages]

Good luck Hiker to you and your daughter! Sounds as though she is ready for college/ROTC/nursing and will do well.

 

[Aglahad]

Why would this apply to only nursing scholarships? I have read on this site that the numbers of AROTC scholarship recipients that don't make through the first year of AROTC is VERY high. Why shouldn't this plan apply to all AROTC scholarship students?

This isn't completely correct. You cannot absolutely determine success until you have something to evaluate tangibly. You can get a feel for trends and likelihood based on previous experience and testing. Is it absolutely correct? No. But will previous experience (HS grades) and standardized tests give a good indication of who probably will succeed? I think yes. As does ROTC, the SAs and most civilian colleges. Sorry you think we're all wrong.

First...,their is no such major as "Pre-Med". Students interested in eventually taking the Medcat and applying to Med Schools take certain required classes. In effect they are "non declared" or biology/chemistry majors. In fact "pre-med" students can be psychology majors....or almost ANY major. How many start off thinking that some day they want to become medical doctors? A ton. How many make it? I've heard about 10%. Are colleges doing these students a favor by "allowing" everyone to pursue the courses with the hope of someday becoming a medical doctor, or are they doing themselves a favor by bringing in and keeping students that will (in possibly 90% of the time) eventually major in something else?

Where is the comparison between "pre-med" majors and nurses? Nurses are not taking 3/4 years of classes to THEN apply to med school. In a direct entry nursing program there are often graduation rates of 80%+. Often times these graduation rates are higher than the graduation rates for most of the other majors in the same college. If they can get into a direct entry program, nursing students tend to be very serious about their studies and their graduation rates tend to reflect that. Of course maybe I'm just looking at the good/discerning direct entry programs. Perhaps some schools are accepting almost everyone and their graduation rates reflect that decision.

No...but I seep with one. My wife is a nurse with both a BSN & a MSN. Her sister also has both degrees. Both work in nursing education. My daughter and niece are both BSN nursing students. Also several cousins. I have had some exposure to the profession.

From a students perspective I see it as re-assuring that you are not going to experience a bloodbath at the end of the first or second year of school. That as long as you (as with most students) maintain a certain CGPA, you have a spot in the SON. That the SON has enough confidence in your success that they have selected you from a huge pool of applicants and also that the SON is able to focus all it's efforts on preparing you and 120 of your classmates instead of 300+ of which 2/3 won't ever make it into the school.....let alone graduate.

I've already explained why I think the non-direct method of entry is a financial decision for schools that use it. In fairness though, it does offer opportunities to those that because of financial need (or choice) decided to take their first year or two at a community college, and those that (for whatever reason) were not able to enroll in a direct entry program.

Let me just summarize this since we seem to be beating a dead (or dying) horse:
Take 120 nursing students in a direct entry nursing program and look at the graduation rate four years later; I am sure you will find a higher graduation rate than a non-direct program that loses 2/3 or even higher of all it's students before they are allowed into the SON. If the ultimate goal is to educate and train professional nurses, which the country and military both need, then the direct entry method seems IMHO to be the fairest to the students AND to satisfy that goal.

Of course there is no pre-med, law or PT major where did I say there was? All "pre" includes is a designated set of classes taken in order to satisfy a professional schools requirements. I understand med school and law are obviously post-graduate while nursing is not for a BSN, however it is a professional school just like the school of engineering on most campuses. In fact even for a lot of business schools you have to apply your Soph year after pre reqs.

I think ROTC should implement a 3 year scholarship with a loan repayment option for all majors. Too often do freshmen enter ROTC get a year paid for then drop out, it is a horrendous waste of money. However I think the 3 year scholarship applies more for a nursing or engineering type of cadet. Most MSI attrition is not because of heavy course load it is usually do to goofing off and not putting school first. Since the majority of AROTC cadets are CJ, Poly Sci, Comm, and history majors I don't see the first year being very stringent unless Comm 101 difficulty has drastically changed ( I doubt it). I understand a lot of majors are difficult in college but there is a reason why for the army at least there line cadets and nurses. The distinction means there are increased expectations apart the average cadet. Trust me I get it pounded in my head every time I have a meeting with our LTC.

Our recent stats after the change from "pre" to direct entry has not shown any better retention rates. I am curious to see if there is a national study out there. Anyways, I just don't see how direct-entry grads are retained better than "pre-X". The "pre" classes are in fact a competition which is fair and balanced(High school GPA from school A or B....or a bad day of SAT testing is not). Furthermore, a hs student who did so so so on SATs and GPA is pretty much screwed from the get-go even if they ace their A&P/chem. Because cohorts are usually set for the 4 years they are left out. My GPS in hs was mediocre at best but when I hit college I picked up the slack and at the end of Frosh year I was in the school while those who did better in hs than me were now education majors.

TL;DR version: A year of college courses levels the playing field for those who can hack it. You have shown you can succeed in college science class and are prepared for the SON. Besides, the best nursing students I have seen are those in their late 30s early 40s with life experience coming in from a CC

Good discussion, I forwarded link to my DD. She was a direct-entry out of high school and had high academic stats. She carried AP credits into the program for AP Calc, Bio and Chem an so far she seems to be balancing it well. She told me she got a 97 on her first A+P exam, but she knows the tough stuff is coming and that is why she wanted to do Ranger Challenge this year, since she fears that she will not be able to do it in the future.

She was a three season athlete and captain (soccer, basketball, and track) in high school and is used to good time management. The ROTC unit seems to be meeting her need to be involved on a team. She loves the Army program and is looking forward to the NSTP between her Junior and Senior years. She told me that she will be taking the MSIII program next year and going to LDAC between her soph and Jr years. She said they do this because of the Clinical schedule in the Jr year for the nurses and the NSTP that is available (although optional I believe).

Thanks for the great input.

Her AP courses transferred to fulfill her SON requirements? Man I wish my SON was that kind haha. They required us all to take their courses for pre req or specific CC courses.

Yes, that is common for nurses to go to LDAC between Soph/Junior year. NSTP is technically optional but you usually are "voluntold" to go unless you have good reason not to. It is a very good program from what I am told. I think I said before, but I went to the line officer version called CTLT ( with an armored cavalry unit) instead because my clinical schedule was odd.

Good luck if she has any questions about AROTC nursing let me know.

 

[aglages]

Our recent stats after the change from "pre" to direct entry has not shown any better retention rates.

Wow! I don't know how to respond to this. In previous posts you mentioned numbers like 80-100 out of 300 applicants got into the SON, and 20% retention rates with the 1+3 or 2+2 program. Now that your school has changed to a direct entry nursing program you are STILL seeing only 1/3 to 1/5 of incoming freshman nursing students graduate with a BSN? That is hard to believe for two reasons:
1. I'm not sure I ever heard of any direct nursing BSN program in the US with graduation rates that low
2. As a nursing student yourself, how many students have you seen graduate since the change over to direct entry?

I also think you are failing to account for how many freshman of all majors fail during the first year. By the time ANY student in ANY major becomes a junior s/he has learned what is necessary to succeed in college. When you remove the CGPA from the students that are no longer enrolled, you'll probably find that juniors and seniors have an over all higher CGPA. Perhaps 3.0?

The "pre" classes are in fact a competition which is fair and balanced(High school GPA from school A or B....or a bad day of SAT testing is not). Furthermore, a hs student who did so so so on SATs and GPA is pretty much screwed from the get-go even if they ace their A&P/chem. Because cohorts are usually set for the 4 years they are left out.

So in essence you would just ignore whatever work was done (or was NOT done) in HS and throw everyone in the same class and let the ones who are NOW serious about school rise to the top?

My GPS in hs was mediocre at best but when I hit college I picked up the slack...

Ahhhh...now I see the motivation for discarding the body of work from the serious and hard working HS students. Let's get rid of those HS ROTC scholarships also....at least until they have proven themselves in college like you did.

TL;DR version: A year of college courses levels the playing field for those who can hack it. You have shown you can succeed in college science class and are prepared for the SON.

If this is truly the best method why not take this approach for ALL majors?

Besides, the best nursing students I have seen are those in their late 30s early 40s with life experience coming in from a CC

Great. Maybe the SON's should also require 20 years of life experience before allowing their students to compete for SON slots. What was accomplished in HS and/or standardized tests would truly have no meaning at that point.

I'll give you the last word in this discussion. Clearly we are miles apart in our opinions. No hard feelings and good luck in Army Nursing!

 

[hiker]

Thankyou Aglahad and aglages. My DD is very excited and I think she is surprised how much she is enjoying ROTC. She did a lot of research up front in her senior year and sat down with quite a few Army and Navy officers at diiferent battalions to discuss the programs and what to expect. It was all her decision to go forward and it is her life and her commitment. I am just sitting back and seeing what she does with it. I think she will do well.

 

[Aglahad]

Wow! I don't know how to respond to this. In previous posts you mentioned numbers like 80-100 out of 300 applicants got into the SON, and 20% retention rates with the 1+3 or 2+2 program. Now that your school has changed to a direct entry nursing program you are STILL seeing only 1/3 to 1/5 of incoming freshman nursing students graduate with a BSN? That is hard to believe for two reasons:
1. I'm not sure I ever heard of any direct nursing BSN program in the US with graduation rates that low
2. As a nursing student yourself, how many students have you seen graduate since the change over to direct entry?

I also think you are failing to account for how many freshman of all majors fail during the first year. By the time ANY student in ANY major becomes a junior s/he has learned what is necessary to succeed in college. When you remove the CGPA from the students that are no longer enrolled, you'll probably find that juniors and seniors have an over all higher CGPA. Perhaps 3.0?

So in essence you would just ignore whatever work was done (or was NOT done) in HS and throw everyone in the same class and let the ones who are NOW serious about school rise to the top?

Ahhhh...now I see the motivation for discarding the body of work from the serious and hard working HS students. Let's get rid of those HS ROTC scholarships also....at least until they have proven themselves in college like you did.

If this is truly the best method why not take this approach for ALL majors?

Great. Maybe the SON's should also require 20 years of life experience before allowing their students to compete for SON slots. What was accomplished in HS and/or standardized tests would truly have no meaning at that point.

I'll give you the last word in this discussion. Clearly we are miles apart in our opinions. No hard feelings and good luck in Army Nursing!

Woah, I guess it wasn't clear but the graduating rate for those that get in the program is probably 80-90% when we had non-direct entry (most dropped because of family/finance issues or couldn't pass pathophysiology). Obviously with direct entry those number have significantly dropped when people fail to make grades (our direct entry switch is only 2 years old). However the same amount of qualified applicants direct or non-direct tends to stay the same. My school can only support 80 spots a year with 2 cohorts not including fast track MSN.

My quip about older students was mostly said jokingly but there is something to be said about a 35-40 family man/woman who has had military, career and life experience. It brings a lot more to the classroom then some 18 y/o kid would.

Haha well I was 3.7gpa with APs, 1900ish SAT, club president and varsity/state baseball and I consider that mediocre lol.

Thanks, good luck to your daughter even though she should of gone army HOOAH!...but really the flight nursing in AF is top notch.