NROTC summer training cuts?

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by kinnem, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Has anyone heard anything about some minor NROTC "training" budget cuts?

    Spoke with DS last night and he said "Big Navy", as he calls it, will no longer allow battalion owned vans to be used for transport to Drill Competitions. His unit had to turn to the alumni association to get funds to attend the Tulane competition in Feb. Their attendance at the Memphis competition is still up in the air.

    He also said there is a chance that Mt. Warfare Training for Marine Options may be cut as well. Other training would be substituted, eg. training assignment to an amphib unit. This one would actually make some sense with the Afghan war winding down and attendees still being 2 years from commissioning and probably 3 years from deployment.

    He came across this info as he was speaking with his MOI regarding changing his assignment from Mt. Warfare to an Amphib unit so he could keep his summer job at the college from mid-May to early July. The MOI mentioned Mt. Warfare might be cut out anyway for budget reasons. Of course it might just have been the MOI trying to make him feel better or something, but I think these guys are generally straight up about stuff.

    The whole things works fine for me as I think he gets a better sense of what he'll be doing and if something does crop up at high altitude I assume they'll attend Mt. Warfare prior to deployment. Just wondering if anyone else has heard anything?
     
  2. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    Haven't heard this but not surprised. A few weeks ago I checked the Mountain Warfare school calendar and couldn't find sessions slated for ROTC. I assumed it hadn't been scheduled yet but perhaps....
     
  3. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    If it's anything like the Army ROTC, my son's cadre said they only saw 3 cadets going to Winter Mountain Warfare this year. Airborne slots were down this year as well.
     
  4. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Hi USMCGrunt,

    Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, DS was given a date for Mt. Warfare on 1/18 so it probably wasn't scheduled when you looked. It's the conflict it caused with the summer job he lined up as a Freshman Orientation leader at the college that prompted the conversation where the good possibility of cutting it came up. Really just curious if anyone else has heard anything. No surprise, and really no big deal as long as they do something. A cruise with an Amphib unit would be cool too, which is what they're trying to line up for him now to work around his conflict. Seems like the MOI would like for him to keep his job to foster college/unit relations or some such bull. I'm sure it's real but I'm not too big on touchy feely stuff. :smile:

    Or, the kid could just be giving the old man a snow job so he can keep the job, still do some training, and not have to come home this summer! :biggrin:
     
  5. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    It would definitely appear that money is tight. No surprise I guess.
     
  6. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    kinnem: I find it hard to understand how this saves much money. If every MO still goes to a summer training assignment, where are the savings?

    I thought the Mountain Warfare School was a mandatory event for every MO after Sophomore year. Your son's description of an option was something I hadn't heard before. However, in a 10 second Google search, I saw this on Duke University's website: Marine Option students "spend a month doing a special Marine training program of their choice, such as Combined Arms Exercises (CAX) or Mountain Warfare School."

    This was news to me.
     
  7. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Yeah, I don't think they all go to Mt. Warfare School. I think it's limited to 250 midshipmen and I assume there MUST be more than 250 Marine Option sophomores nationwide. Plus there are gear restrictions. For example, supposedly no Alice Packs allowed, but son's unit still only has Alice Packs and they always get grief and are told "Not next year!". Now that you mention it though I don't see how it saves money either, but I wouldn't venture to guess. You are far more qualified in that area than I.
     
  8. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    kinnem: I sent a text to my DS and he confirms that he has heard same rumour regarding Montain Warfare training. Where there is smoke...

    Also, his unit was supposed to go to both the Tulane and Memphis Drill Meets. They definately dropped out of the Tulane event. Seems there is great pressure to cut costs.
     
  9. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    Another little tidbit: DS was told that there may not be any summer training for MO sophomores (rising juniors) this year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  10. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    Ouch to that! That will not go over well. I expect the kids can handle it but I'll have a tough time. I think it would be good for my kid to do at least one summer training before heading off to OCS next year, just to get him somewhat acclimated to a more rigorous training environment. But it is what it is.

    Too bad about dropping Tulane. Never been to Mardi Gras but I know the boy had a great time there last year. He's still hoping they go to Memphis as he hopes to make the Endurance team for that event. The added benefit is it would allow him to train with the guys heading to OCS this summer which he was really looking forward to.

    Thanks for the call to your son for confirmation on the Mt. Warfare rumor. At least now I don't need to worry about whether the kid is snowing me or not. It's officially being considered as far as I'm concerned at this point.
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I wonder if this is due to the fact that they kicked the budget down the road again. Panetta had already announced that he wanted everybody to be prepared for sequestration. This might have been on the list.

    http://freebeacon.com/unfit-for-combat/

    It appears they are already starting RIFs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  12. pipingplover

    pipingplover Member

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    The cuts to MO summer training may sway someone to choose USNA over NROTC. Does anyone know if similar cuts will be made to any summer training at the Naval Academy?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  13. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    JMPO, anyone with that knowledge would never answer your question because of security clearance reasons. Additionally nobody knows if sequestration will occur.

    Those in the know will be silent.

    I understand your position it may sway someone, but the fact is this a 4 yr program and no candidate should assume what happened for 1 yr group will happen for their yr group 3 yrs later. It is a roll of the dice.

    DS commissioned in 12, when he was a soph. they cut hard for AFROTC. Lowest selection rate for summer field training, they also cancelled IS for 13 class, along with OCS, one yr later both were back at a strong rate.

    The military life is part what you know, and part timing. If a candidate decides because of this yr to bolt, they may regret it later on when NROTC has balanced it out.

    It may not be a forever thing. It maybe just this yr to get the budget aligned.

    If USNA still is trying to get their numbers down for appointments, it can have an indirect impact on NROTC because those that applied for both, will take plan B. That may mean they will have too many NROTC grads. Like AFROTC all of the POC mids will go AD. Yet, at the same time Navy will have X number set for newly minted O1s in 17. It creates an imbalance for the Navy, but more importantly for their FY17 personnel.

    It is about seeing the forest for the trees. Each one makes the big picture.
     
  14. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    The RIFs were coming even without sequestration, but the kick of the can down the road may be why they're "thinking" about training cuts... in case sequestration does take effect. That seems like an easy cut to make to future readiness which can be recovered later if possible.

    Personally, without getting into the politics of it, I think will go into effect and we will see lots of changes. Hopefully sequestration cuts will be more equipment related and not personnel related, but only time will tell, and neither is good.
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    kinnem,

    No offense, but I chuckled at the more equipment comment.

    I recall Bullet doing a double turn (basically you land and the jet is turned and you take off again), as he did his pre-check flight he kicked the tires and made a comment about the tread. He was told don't worry they are good to go for 3 landings! :eek:

    They are also know to cannibalize airframes because of the budget.

    Reality is it is all about which side of the fence you are sitting on.

    I agree that training is important, but if the equipment is falling apart, it is hard to achieve the goals of training. What is your perspective of training...ROTC or AD? Again, it is a catch 22. Can't afford equipment, can't afford training; training impacts the cost of equipment.

    Personally, I think they are preparing for the worst financially. ROTC is unique because it gives 4 yrs of training at a cost, but at the same time OCS/OTS can pump out officers too at a lower cost.

    When economic times are good, ROTC is a great tool for them compared to OCS because of the training long term. When times are bad, ROTC becomes a cost issue, and OCS is cheaper. They have a better control from a personnel perspective with OCS than 4 yr scholarship recipients, especially if they can bolt in the 1st yr of ROTC with no penalty.

    Hindsight is 20/20. Although Gojira's DS was NROTC, not MO, the fact that they cut him 6 weeks prior to commissioning when he had his career assignment was the 1st sign of things to come for the Navy. 2nd sign was cutting appointments. 3rd sign is SERB.

    I get that is Navy, but Marines are part of the Navy.

    I think it was also you that posted about the Pensacola UPT class.

    AF went through this in 2010. They cancelled OCS boards, ISSP boards, lower SFT selection on top of taking appointments from 1600 marker to 1350...and this yr is expected to be that low again.

    Not to make this political either, but when you slash and burn the DoD budget in the name of taxpayer savings it has a bite you in the arse result.

    Kill the 35...AF, Navy and Marines are all buying that airframe. Look inside of a jet, and you will see the tentacles of how they impact the economy. Paint, leather (cockpit seats), computer chips, glass, etc. all go into that airframe. Training bases for the plane That is why you see MOCs fighting for the 35. Towns can go under if that is the employer for the town.

    I am assuming that is what you meant by equipment.

    It is political! Like it or not, ROTC doesn't have that same coverage. A det closes, the university can still survive, cadet/mids are disrupted by going x town, but it has no economic impact.

    SFT for AFROTC is held at Maxwell. Cancelling it would not kill the town because Maxwell also exist for AD PME like SOS, ACSC, AWC. It is only the summer that they get AFROTC cadets, who don't rent homes, eat at AppleBees. etc. They add nothing to the economy for Maxwell accept for those tied only to SFT. Shutting down SFT does not impact/ hurt Maxwell. Just like x-town ROTC and colleges.

    However, it does impact their budget from a training perspective. They could cut 100's of thousands by not offering that option. This is a TDY for cadet/mids. Airfare, housing, per diem, plus training costs are not cheap.

    I think for our DS's SFT his TDY pay he received was 750. They flew him there on their dime and fed him for 30 days. Multiply that with 2000 cadets. That is a chunk of change. A chunk that they wouldn't have paid if he was an OCS/OTS candidate.

    Pennies are being counted. They are no longer jumping over them.

    To the joy of many at least the AF gets Band in the AF is waste!
     
  16. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    No offense taken Pima. I appreciate your perspective. I certainly understand the economic impact of weapon system cuts, and the training impact of broken down equipment. My thought process on this was much simpler. I believe, when funds do become available (perhaps due to some emergency) then, as a rule of thumb, it is easier/faster to provide a weapon system (perhaps not the weapon system) than it is to train the weapon system operator. Now it depends on the weapon system etc. but I'm of the opinion that skilled personnel should be retained at the expense of weapons which can be replaced later... nor am I agin' a rational plan which cuts both. It's the across the board irrational stuff that scares me.
     
  17. gbo3

    gbo3 Member

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    I'm hoping likewise, on Memphis. My daughter has put together a pretty good Endurance team, she has done drill the last 3 years and was looking for something different this years. I'm hoping they still have transportation.
     
  18. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

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    I hope it comes through for her. I'm sure she has put in a lot of work.
     
  19. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    Can't say regarding the USNA but it was widely discussed that there were less variety in the summer training opportunities at the USMA.
     
  20. Jcc123

    Jcc123 Member

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    As far as AROTC goes, my son landed the summer training slot that he wanted, and I know that everyone at his school who applied for CULP received a slot. I don't believe the airborne/air assault slots have been handed out yet. We're not seeing any difference in training availability, but I suppose anything can change at any time.
     

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