Obama reviewing ban on photos of coffins

oldgrad said:
I guess if we want to honor the sacrifices of all those unwed mothers who sacrifice their all by having abortions, we should start honoring their sacrifices by photographing them. As you can see, Pima, I am not quite following your analogy.

The fallen troops died for all of us — they died for the nation, they died for the cause. It's a right for all Americans to pay their respects for those who made the sacrifice. It is not a right held exclusively for the families themselves.
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I think that's why there are memorials all over the country in honor of our fallen comrades. That's why the have funds set up to assist the spouses and children of the fallen. There's a lot of ways to honor those who have given their all for us besides having a bunch of reporters filming and clicking away cameras.

Can you imagine waiting on the tarmac as the plane pulls up. It's your husband, wife, mother, father, sister, brother in the back of the plane. Every inch that the plane gets closer, you keep praying that it's all a bad dream. You feel your insides being torn as the plane opens up. The honor guard is in place as caskets are taken out of the plane. And instead of just your family; the family of the others; and your military family there to comfort each other; you've got this nice tape barricade behind or along side of you with 10 or so reporters. They are filming and taking pictures. They CAN'T show respect, because they're just doing their job. I can feel the honor now.

People talk about the American people's rights because the fallen fell for everyone. That's fine; but the immediate family's rights trump theirs. EVERY TIME!!! Now; if the military wants to take pictures and have a press package that they give out for the media; that would be good. Better yet, if the media really cares about bringing the fallen heros into the homes of the American people; yea right; the could show picture of the fallen on the screen in uniform with their names. They only want caskets to sensationalize the situation. If it was a precession on the way to arlington or similar, I could even see that. That would be respectful. But caskets coming off the back of a plane or in a hanger with the family present is just plain disrespectful.
 
Oldgrad

You and I see it differently...I see it as a privacy issue...if the family wants to have it then fine...if not then they should have their privacy and should be respected for their decision.
I fear that this will become a sensationalism issue.

I have attended many funerals, 6 off the top of my head. The families are distraught and devastated. Their child, mate or parent gave their life for our country and the least we can do is let them have privacy in that horrific time.

I would be quite upset with the media if they took a pic of Bullets casket or our DS's just to drive home a point of the cost of any war. Most of the print media isn't taking pics for national heroism, they are doing it to sell papers. I for one think that Bullet and now our son joined for private and personal reasons, they never did it for glory or to be acknowledged. If I lose our son and I know that chance will exist, especially since he wants to fly, please leave our family alone to mourn in our own confines. The nation didn't lose a son...it would be Bullet and I, you have no need to see his coffin...if you really have that desire come to the funeral, but otherwise it is just another pic...does it say anything about them...will the coffin draped in a flag let you know he is 5'10, Brown hair, hazel eyes and always ended the night with guess what Mom...I love you. No, it's a picture. Paying respects is coming to the family and extending your hand and saying thank you for the debt you paid to this nation.

Going through many crashes and burials in the AF, it is very difficult...news comes out and you are on another base, but you quickly run to the internet to find out what squadron...reason why...you DON'T CALL...you don't know if the spouse is crying or waiting to hear if they are widow. EVen if you are on the same base, you are sitting there waiting for the phone or looking out the door....unfortunately too many times our system doesn't work as fast as the media. Inevitably there will always be someone that calls the news and says I just saw this jet go down. These people are your friends, you gave baby gifts to them, you went to their home for parties, you know them. As much as you know them personally, you also know they want and need their privacy. So if the military community says give thm space, than we as a nation should honor it.
 
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I think this sums it all up
A University of Delaware professor who unsuccessfully sued to force the government to release pictures of flag-draped coffins returning home said taxpayers should see the cost of war
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He doesn't care about the family, he had his own agenda, he went on to state
“Of course we respect the families, but none of these caskets is identified in any way and there’s no invasion of privacy in the first place,” said Ralph Begleiter, a professor at the University of Delaware and a former world affairs correspondent for CNN.
The fallen troops “died for all of us — they died for the nation, they died for the cause,” Begleiter said in a January interview. “It’s a right for all Americans to pay their respects for those who made the sacrifice. It is not a right held exclusively for the families themselves.”
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Really, and what about that military member who died of a heart attack or a car accident...didn't they also sacrificec their life for the nation everyday they went to work. Bullet would only be a hero if he died in Iraq, but not if his plane crashed on a daily mission...thanks for clarifying that Prof. Begleiter...I feel so glad to know that I have no right to mourn in private and that now my husband belongs to you when only 2 days earlier you had no knowledge of his existence.
 
oldgrad said:
This continues to be about the media instead of the subject at hand.

Dover is a closed facility. The military has total control over everything that happens on the flight line. The manifest of the planes is privileged information. The media would either play by our rules or they would not play. Simple enough.

LITS, first with JAM, you say that it is only about family with children in the 'real' military, then you imply that only those on active duty have a right to an opinion. Make up your mind.
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Negative OLDGRAD, I say REAL military because being in a service academy is far from it. Having been in a service academy once you graduate you are in the REAL military....a place cadets/midshipmen want to be.
 
As an example of the playing by the rules you mention. I remember a not to distant case where CNN thought the right to know was so important they broadcast video tape of insurgent snipers killling a US Marine. They edited parts but didn't hesitate to broadcast it. Where was the regard for the family of this Marine. Old Grad I am embarrassed for you.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/19/iraq.sniper.video/

This is the media you say will play by the rules.
 
ds52262, LITS, Christcorp, your premise continues to be privacy for the families. However, your entire reasoning is all about the perceived inadequacies of the media.

LITS, I am unaware of any caveat which causes parents of cadets and midshipmen to be any less of an American citizen than those who have graduated from a SA. All are entitled to their opinions.

ds52262, please do not feel embarrassed for me for wishing to personally honor those who have given their lives for their country. I continue to question your reason, beyond irresponsible media, as to why you oppose it. Some families, I would think, might want privacy. Others, proud of the accomplishments of their deceased, might want to share. Dover could accommodate both. We, as a civilization, owe them honors, being thankful of their sacrifices, and the public has a right to be a part of it.
 
Oldgrad, I am fully aware there are things you are unaware of, however I'm not exactly sure you have understood what I've said. It seems to have gone right over your head. The comment was far enough back that I'm not sure if I can lead you back on to the path. :confused:
 
LineInTheSand said:
I'm not exactly sure you have understood what I've said. It seems to have gone right over your head.
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Maybe not over my head but difficult to keep up with you and understand what the majority of your postings have to do with the discussion at hand.

What was USNA69's IP again?

I say REAL military because being in a service academy is far from it.

I would also recommend you talk to those currently serving.

at least we know your spin....as if it wasn't obvious before.

they'd rather watch CSI, The Hills, The OC, Friend, and Letterman.

I'm sure that the fallen service members want to be USED by the media to further liberal media bias.

Also keep in mind TPG, I'm talking about the surviving family and loved ones, not the dead.

You child goes to USMA, and will some day be in the "real Army".

If you believe for a second that the reporter who posed this question to President Obama had the best interest of the service members in mind...you're crazy.
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LITS - please explain this to me:
at least we know your spin....as if it wasn't obvious before.
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What the heck is your problem with me? Out with it.
You assumptions are way off base. I don't know what your personal problem is with me. You have no idea what my political leanings or spin is. Go back to post #1. I posted this article without comment.
How could you possibly know what I was thinking?
You, appear to have little disregard for anyone's opposing opinion. You continually feel the need to berate anyone who questions or disagrees with you.
Go back and read the article about Sec Gates. Is he whacky for questioning and reviewing the policy? Perhaps you need to hop on your segway and scoot on over to his office and explain a few things to him about honoring our fallen military. I am sure you know more than he and could teach him a thing or two about Article 1 of the Constitution.

I am wondering about the parents and family members of fallen military who oppose the ban? Are they whacky? No everyone agrees here - on both sides of the political aisle.

flyersboy114 said:
How are we honoring them by showing a casket in the newspaper or on tv.
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Flyersboy -
This is the deal. Some people say that not showing American's how the military honors it's own fallen soldiers as they return to American soil sanitizes the war. It keeps the ugliness out. Some family members want America to see the honor brought forth by their fallen loved ones. They want their son or daughters casket in your living room so you can see and feel the personal sacrifices that have made.

One reason why our consittution allows for freedom of the press is an inherent distrust of government. A Free Press documents what the Government is doing and not doing. Without documentation - "We" are left trusting that our Government is doing the right thing - that they are receiving the dead in an honorable way.

Lastly - remember 9/11/01 and the weeks and months after. Remember all the fallen NY Firefighters who gave the ultimate sacrifice and lost their lives running into the fire to save people? Remember the funeral processions - they were on the nightly news for weeks. Was this dishonorable? Were the families rights violated? Was the sacrfice these men made drove home by the visual of a funeral procession.

You who are in the military complain that the average American has no idea what sacrifices their military is making for them - you are aiding and abetting this buy not showing it.

Lastly, the ban on photos has nothing to do with servicemens' privacy or family's privacy. The ban is the result of not wanting graphic photos of the sacrifices that the Military is making to control public opinion of the war.
As for my opinion, I can see both sides of the argument. None of you have helped me make up my mind.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Lastly, the ban on photos has nothing to do with servicemens' privacy or family's privacy. The ban is the result of not wanting graphic photos of the sacrifices that the Military is making to control public opinion of the war.
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Absolutely. The Vietnam War soured the American public on military casualties. Google "Dover effect". During the Clinton administration, DOD coined this phrase as an acid test for whether a military operation was feasible or not.
 
I agree it is a personal decision and the family member should be allowed to make that decision.

Little known fact, every time you in process ino a flying squadron one of the first things you are handed is a death packet to be filled out by the spouse. Questions range from do you want the military to officially tell other family members, to your church to where do you want the member to be buried. The packets are several pages long, sealed and place into a safe for your entire tour. Every Commander knows exactly where that packet/letter is (typically service member includes private letters to family members) It wouldn't be hard to add that question. Do you want the media to be allowed to photograph the casket.

It is my husband I should be allowed to make that determination. Some people will want the photographer for memory sake or to honor them, some will want the privacy. Best to know their answer prior to the tragic event.'
Even PAs say they are worried that photographers may sway the family either to show up when they had no intention or to not show because of the publicity.

I find it interesting that people believe that their right trumps the families, and the thought that the member is some type of chattel that people who know nothing about them want to claim they have more rights.

IMHO anybody who has this need to look at a casket of a stranger draped in a flag is warped. If you want to know them then read the obit, send a sympathy card, but I can't see any need for seeing the casket.
 
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JAM, you asked and I will tell.


I guess my problem started with you WAY BACK as you sided with USNA69 on just about everything. On your way to doing this you have attempted to discredit things that people who have served or are currently serving have said. You do this while asserting some kind of "authority". As your name says, you are just a mom. My problem with you arrises because many of the opinions you voice, in my opinion, would not benefit any future service your kid will have. You regularly attack (maybe too harsh of a word) me, Pima, Bullet and a handful of people who have more experience, not only with acadmies, but with the services those acadmies supply with future officers.

What did I mean by "at least we know your spin" is.....

You spent an entire thread arguing with people that they should use "President" whenever referencing Obama, and NOW you accuse President Bush of using the media to cover up bad stories. Hmmm, those two seniments don't really line up, but then, people have already called you out on it.
 
You know folks - one of the marks of an educated person is the ability to make an argument on its merits without resorting to personal attacks. Some of these posts fall dangerously close to that line.
There are clearly reasons for opening this up- as articulated by the Republican congressman from NC- (hardly a hot bed of liberalism); while there are also legitimate personal privacy concerns for the families who have to bear the loss. Try and keep this discussion within the boundries of the relative merits of the policy and proposed change without attacking other posters.
 
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Lastly - remember 9/11/01 and the weeks and months after. Remember all the fallen NY Firefighters who gave the ultimate sacrifice and lost their lives running into the fire to save people? Remember the funeral processions - they were on the nightly news for weeks.
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JAM; you mentioned a good point in the quote above. But the KEY word was the "Funeral Processions". There's a big difference with that and filming/pictures of caskets being removed from the back of a transport plane; or lined up in a hangar. Especially when the family is present at the time when these caskets are being returned.

I mentioned that filming/pictures during a ceremony is appropriate. I also said that the ultimate decision during "Non-public events" (Meaning NOT during a funeral procession); lies with that of the family. If the remains of 8 fallen heros is coming into dover, then the military can release their names to the media. They can also provide a release form for the 8 next of kins of those fallen heroes. If the media gets all 8 to say it's OK to film or take pictures while the caskets are being removed from the aircraft or are staged in a hangar, then that's fine. If 1 out of the 8 next of kin says no to the media; then the answer is no. That's the way it SHOULD be. A funeral procession is a bad example. That is a public event. It is intended to be made public. Seeing your loved one for the 1st time since they left to go to war; and it being in a coffin in a hangar; is NOT a public event.
 
I guess my problem started with you WAY BACK as you sided with USNA69 on just about everything. On your way to doing this you have attempted to discredit things that people who have served or are currently serving have said. You do this while asserting some kind of "authority". As your name says, you are just a mom. My problem with you arrises because many of the opinions you voice, in my opinion, would not benefit any future service your kid will have. You regularly attack (maybe too harsh of a word) me, Pima, Bullet and a handful of people who have more experience, not only with acadmies, but with the services those acadmies supply with future officers.
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Thanks for your candid remarks. This is getting way off topic. Perhaps you could start a new thread - call it:
My problem wiht Just_A_Mom and why I have a need to make fun of, talk down to and attack everything she says even though I don't know anything about her.
I want specifics. Tell me about myself. Tell me who I voted for, my own opinion of the military and the WOT, how this makes me a bad person and why you and your friends feel the need to gang up on me.
 
CC your point is well noted.

Does this mean that the Government should call for an all out ban on the press? Could this decision not be left to the families involved?

I think we all know, the reason for the ban is not to protect the families- rather it is to protect the image of the President.
 
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