Obtaining Nom from another MoC?

Discussion in 'Nominations' started by cmartin1069, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. cmartin1069

    cmartin1069 Member

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    I've scanned the boards and haven't found a clear answer to this question. I've "heard" that MoC's can "share" nominations if they wish. In other words (as I understand this rumor), if one MoC has very few candidates, he could nominate a candidate from another district (presumably with the knowledge of the correct MoC).

    True or False?
     
  2. GoArmyBeatNavy

    GoArmyBeatNavy Member

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    False. By US Code Title 10 a member of congress can only nominate a constituent.
     
  3. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    For USMA, USNA, and USAFA, the nominee must live in the Congressional District of the US Representative, or the State of the US Senator, to be legally nominated.

    With regard to USMMA - the locality boundary for nomination by a Representative is the State in which the District lies rather than just the District itself. In other words, a candidate for KP can solicit a nom from any MOC in his state, not just his district's US Representative and his 2 Senators. In a state like California, that gives a candidate 55 chances at a legal nomination to KP.

    And of course, the extra step of obtaining a nomination is unnecessary at the USCGA.
     
  4. cmartin1069

    cmartin1069 Member

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    Interesting wording

    I am not a lawyer but I find this difference interesting.
    Title 10 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/6954) reads this:
    "Five nominated by each Representative in Congress"

    while a report to Congress from 2006 (http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metacrs8480/m1/1/high_res_d/RL33213_2006Feb21.pdf) reads:
    "5 from each congressional district, nominated by the Representative
    from the district
    "

    Additionally, further down in the Title 10 doc it says "Each Senator, Representative, and Delegate in Congress, including the Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico, is entitled to nominate 10 persons for each vacancy that is available to him under this section."
    ---> but can't find a definition of what is meant by "available to him".


    Quite possibly I'm at the wrong snippet of Title 10.

    Again, I an not expressing a legal opinion; this is just a layman's read.:confused:
     
  5. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Well, you're not right or wrong. You are simply stating the law, which supports what all of us are saying.:smile: I think you may be confusing the number of mids/cadets that each MOC can have at each SA (5) with the number of people (10) the MOC can nominate to fill each of these 5 positions.

    Each MOC may have 5 mids/cadets in each SA that count towards him/her (that MOC). They can be distributed among all 4 classes (1 in each of three classes plus 2 in one class) or can all be in the same class (stupid, but it can be done).

    In general, each MOC has one vacancy per SA come open each year (there could be two or even more -- see paragraph above -- but it's typically one). The MOC can nominate 10 people for that vacancy. Assuming one of those is qualified for an appointment -- and accepts the appointment, that mid/cadet will be counted against that MOC's total of 5.

    However, the other 9 nominees (assuming they are fully qualified) could still obtain an appointment. They compete against the other MOC nominees who didn't get the MOC's appointment (the other 9 or fewer from each nomination slate) in a national pool. Some of those individuals may receive an appointment and will be counted against another source, such as SecNav.

    The above said, for USNA, USMA, and USAFA, you can only apply to the MOC for the district in which you have legal residence. For most candidates, that's the district in which their parent(s) reside. Children of divorced parents or parents who for other reasons live in different states/districts can generally choose the district from which they apply (between the two in which their parents reside).

    For these SAs, MOCs cannot legally "share" noms or appointments. There are always rumors that this happens but I don't think anyone can actually cite such a case in recent history.

    Hope this helps.
     
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I agree with usna1985 and the others regarding this issue, but let's flip it another way on why they wouldn't share for the AFA, USNA or USMA.

    MOC's are elected by their voting constituents. Do you believe that a Congressman would not get flak by their constituents if they nom'd someone that is not in their district and that nom won the apptmt?

    Hell hath no fury like a candidate losing out to someone not in the voting district.

    Maybe you are confusing this with what posters normally call "talking" and/or "spreading the wealth".

    In that scenario there are states which are seen as competitive, and due to this fact the MOC's and the Sens talk so that nobody duplicates their nom slate, which in turn means they can give more candidates a nom. States like CA, CO, FL, NY, VA and TX are known to tell candidates if you have an MOC nom from someone else we will not consider you for a nom. Other states do not talk, and a candidate can have noms from every MOC available to them for a total of 3.
     
  7. armydaughter

    armydaughter Member

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    I am new to all of this but, from what I understand, the academies can take off the wait list to fill spaces that aren't being used by a MOC. Those appointments are "charged" to the MOC even though they didn't do the actual nomination. Is that right?
     
  8. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    To the best of my knowledge, a SA can't charge an MOC for a candidate he/she didn't nominate. If nothing else, that would totally annoy the MOC!:smile:

    What could happen is the following: Candidate A who is nominated by MOC A is offered an appointment which will be slotted to MOC A. Candidate B nominated by MOC A is waitlisted. Candidate A turns down the appointment. Candidate B is offered an appointment of the waitlist Candidate B is now charged to MOC A.

    In an odd way, the majority of candidates actually benefit from the current system. If there are MOCs who do not use all of their slots at an SA because, for example, no qualified people from their district apply, those slots go empty. However, the entering class size doesn't change. Thus, there are more open slots for people from other districts -- they still get appointments but are charged to entities such as SecNav for USNA.

    Of course, the MOC who didn't fill an open slot in year 1 has two slots in year 2. If the MOC hasn't filled any slots, he/she could theoretically, fill all 5 in one year. So, people in that district aren't disadvantaged if their MOC's slot goes unfilled for one or more years.
     
  9. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Or an academy could simply not utilize nominations at all, and instead use a nationwide merit-based system that chooses the most qualified candidates for appointment without regard to their Congressional geography.

    :wink:
     
  10. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    To add onto usna1985's post.

    The yr our DS went through the process, 1 of his MOC's had 2 vacancies, and they submitted 2 slates of 10.

    I point this out so that posters do not assume if they have 2 slots they only submit 1 slate of 10, jacking up the chances.

    The MOC for DS submitted their slate alphabetically. In other words if your last name was A-M you were on 1 slate, and N-Z was on another.

    Mind boggling to realize your last name could actually be the reason you didn't get an apptmt. Apptmts go to the highest WCS on the slate. So...if Candidate Abernathy had the second highest score on the A-M list, but higher than Candidate Sherlock on the M-Z list, Sherlock still receives the apptmt. Abernathy goes to the pool if their WCS is high enough because they didn't win the appointment on their slate.

    usna1985,

    I just have to ask, have you ever heard of an MOC that never had qualified candidates to submit?

    I am not trying to be antagonistic, I am just trying to figure out how that can be from a statistical perspective. Every SA has at least 15K applicants nationally open files. 10K eligible, only @4K that get noms.

    I am sure it has happened that an MOC didn't nom, but I am curious if you have ever heard of an MOC not giving at least one nom out. One nom, and the applicant meets the stds., they are apptd. Honestly, from a taxpayer's position, that would be pretty sad to say nobody in my district, which is usually around 225K populace is unworthy to attend.

    Granted maybe they are representing an area that is anti-military, but still, even in San Francisco, CA they have more than 10 applicants.

    Just asking in all of your yrs if you have seen that happen, and if so, can you tell us about why you think it happened?
     
  11. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Between 2005-2009, Rep Nidia Valasquez nominated 4 people - total of 4, for all 4 academies that use them. FOUR nominations in 5 years. TOTAL.

    Next on the list was Rep Charles Rangel - he submitted 8 candidates, total, during that 5 year period.

    Even (then) SOTH Pelosi was among the worst in Congress, submitting on 19 candidates for nomination during that time.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-11-23-military-academies-minorities_N.htm

     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Luigi,

    Thank you for the info.

    That is pretty sad when you think about it. If she felt there was no candidate qualified to attend an SA, it says a lot about her district.


    WOW is just too simplistic.

    I am with Craig Duchossois "It's beyond my imagination how someone that has the ability to nominate doesn't do it,"

    I would like to know did she have 0 applicants every yr., or did she just decide she wouldn't nominate.

    Mr. Duchossois's remarks makes me believe she had applicants, but refused to nom.

    Pelosi is not a shocker to me at all, nor is Rangel, and I am sure if I knew Ms.Velazquez's background more, I doubt it would not take more than a feather to blow me over on why she is like Pelosi and Rangel.
     
  13. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Yes, if Congress would allow them to do it. Figure the odds.:biggrin:

    USNA told BGOs a few years ago that there were 45 districts which had zero APPLICANTS (not nomination, applicants). Some of these were in fact heavily minority districts and some were in geographically remote areas. Not to open a can of worm but this is one of the reasons that USNA initiated its outreach program -- to try to get QUALIFIED people in these districts to at least apply.

    So, to answer your question, yes, it has happened.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    I am sorry, I didn't mean to go down that rabbit hole. I was only curious how often it happens.
     
  15. futuremarinemom

    futuremarinemom Member

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    How would a constituent know if a MOC had nominated someone outside his/her district? Is there a way to find out how many nominations have been made in the past, other than asking the MOC? I am aware of the article that was published a number of years ago listing those under represented districts in which few nominations had been made over the period of 5 year (ours was one of them), but is there any way to get this information now?
     
  16. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    You mean other than the MOC admitting that he/she is violating Federal Law?
     
  17. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    You wouldn't.

    One might consult the list that ost MOCs publish of those they nominate (they used to publish such lists; now with privacy issues, not sure it's still being done). I suppose someone might be able to connect the dots if they found the name of someone who lived in Virginia on a slate from a Wyoming MOC.

    However, those lists can be misleading. I've had quite a few candidates over the years who live in my state/district but have another parent who lives elsewhere and thus (usually) apply elsewhere for a nom. This is perfectly legal provided the candidate meets the legal requirements to apply for a nom from the other state/district -- typically, the parent must be a legal resident of the other district and must have primary or joint custody of the child.

    Of course, going back to the original premise, why would an MOC want to give up one of his/her slots to another MOC? It's not as if slots in the entering class don't get filled and, if that MOC suddenly had a boatload of applicants, he/she would probably want those slots back.

    Remember, if a particular MOC does not use his/her slot(s) for a particular year, the SA can select an "extra" person from the national pool to cover that vacancy, so to speak.
     
  18. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    Luigi, you suggest doing away with an antiquated system?!?!

    But that makes too much sense! :thumb:
     
  19. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    It's not really possible. On the applicant's file, based on their address, it's STATES DIRECTLY who that person's representative is. If the academy tried to receive a nomination from someone other than that person; or at least the state's senators; the system would reject it. Bottom line: A representative is NOT nominating someone not in their district. At least not for the big-3 academies.

    P.S. That would be like the academy trying to use a presidential nomination for an applicant who's parent(s) weren't in the military and qualified.
     
  20. cmartin1069

    cmartin1069 Member

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    but what about appointments?

    Thanks to all for the responses to the original question on nominations. It's pretty clear that all nominees must come from the districts of those nominating them.

    But what about the appointments? Can those be "shared"?
    In other words, we know there's the limit of having 5 in a SA at any one time. But if one MoC has fewer and no candidates to take them, can a qualified candidate from another MoC's district be assigned to the slate where the capacity is?

    Maybe MoC's would not want this to happen but maybe they would do it as a favor to another MoC.
     

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