On the Need for Badges

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Okay - I understand times are hard and some have many other expenses but..

KingsPtDad and KPFran14 for that matter too:

I understand many folks have financial restraints, etc. and I am not insensitive to those things. Some use this weekend every year like SeaFaringMooseMom does to center their pilgrimage to see their DS/DD even though they are not plebe, and a weekend in the NYC Metro is never cheap, etc. So if you can afford it you should go, and obviously I think you should pay for and get the badge, again if you can afford it.

All that said, as I think kdbax has already done a good job of highlighting - the $300.00 is most definitely NOT a donation. I went through this on an earlier thread but since it's clear there is some lack of understanding or misunderstanding - Acceptance Day and Parents Weekend are really two different things to some degree. The Acceptance Day events are part of your son and/or daughter's curricula at the USMMA - they are the regimental events and ceremony whereby your DS?DD are sworn into the US Naval Reserve, so they are mission related activities. They are done basically as they've always been done for over 30 years, on Saturday Morning. In the days I went to the Academy your parents were always encouraged to attend if they could. It was actually the first time my dad visited Kings Point, we weren't a well off family, both my parents worked even back in 1979 and my sister was in Medical School at the time, so my wanting to go to and getting into KP enabled them to help her out some along that way... As it was my parents must have gotten up at like 4 in the morning on Saturday to drive up to LI from Philadelphia and see the parade and ceremony. In the end though my point is - no Friday events, no open house/classroom tours, no access to the barracks, no tents on Barney Square, no lunch for parents, etc. They came saw the parade, were on their own for lunch and then paid to see the Football Game and hoped we got Liberty and some time together after the game - overnights on that weekend had not yet become the norm, etc. My point is the events I went to 2 years ago when my DS was a Plebe were much nicer but it's clear they cost more in a lot of different ways.

Parents Weekend - the open house events of the campus, having tours, etc. all that stuff is relatively new. Vice Admiral Stewart thought it would be a good, morale boosting event. At the time the Superintendent had some discretionary funds for support of midshipman welfare and morale activities. For a lot of reasons, but mainly because that fund was in effect Government Funds - even USMMA Alumni Foundation Funds once transferred through the gifting process to the "Academy" transition through the US Treasury and once they are in the hands of a Government Employee for use - are Government Funds and can only be expended following Federal Law and in support of inherently Governmental/Mission Support Activities and Expenditures.

So, that source of funds are no longer available to support those activities that are "Parent's Weekend" activities. So now the costs for those sorts of things related to Parents Weekend must be paid for by some other means. A fee for service type of situation clearly seems entirely appropriate where the fee is some sort of reasonable bundled, pro-rated apportionment of the total costs to each of the people or families who want to attend. Such a fee is most definitely not a donation and I'd have to assume as a nascent 501 (c) (3) that any residual funds left over from this years Parent's Weekend fees after all costs are settled would in some way be quickly consumed by the other non-profit activities that the Parent's Association conducts or executes in support of their stated charter and mission which is basically the support of the Regiment of Midshipmen.

As noted it's the New York Metropolitan Area - one of the most expense to do anything - those tents don't erect themselves and I'd bet the company that rents them in addition to deposits, rental fees, etc. also charges to set them up and take them down. Food from Melville Hall will likely be very good - it was 22 1/2 years ago when we got married there; but it too as noted costs money - in fact more than the meals in Delano Hall which were an issue apparently with some parents in past years. And the list goes on ...
 
Clarification on Parent's Weekend Costs

I know the Parents Association has the best intentions with the upcoming Parents Weekend and have gone to great lengths to plan the event. However, given the numerous posts regarding the costs, I think it would be beneficial for all if the Parents Association provided a breakdown of the costs on their website so it is clear where the money is going.

We all understand that NY/LI is expensive, but that doesn't mean that Parent's Weekend has to be expensive. Annapolis is expensive, but it doesn't cost parents anything to attend the Parents Weekend at the Naval Academy, except for the nominal cost of eating lunch with their midshipman in King Hall. The same could be said for West Point, the Air Force Academy, for Newport RI for NAPS, or Fort Monmouth NJ for the USMMA Prep School. No other Service Academy or their Prep School charges to attend their Parent's Weekend. Why is that? They are all under the same financial rules. I suspect that they have a more pragmatic approach to Parent's Weekend. They probably also understand that many parents make significant financial commitments to fly long distances to see their sons/daughters for the first time after a long and grueling training period and, in many cases, first time separation from their family and don’t need to be saddled with an additional, unnecessary expense.

It appears that much of the cost is driven by things that the Parents Association have deemed to be requirements – hospitality tents, lunch in Melville Hall, Beat Retreat and the various Parent’s Association tents that are used to sell KP/USMMA paraphernalia. As far as I can tell from what I have personally experienced or what I’ve found on each of the Academy websites, none of the other Academies have these things whose cost must be passed on to the parents. They limit Parents Weekend events to tours of the classrooms, lunch in the dining facility (at a nominal cost), tours of the academy grounds, and talks by the academy leadership.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for supporting the Parents Association and the Alumni Foundation with donations that go to support the general welfare of our midshipmen. I’m not, however, interested in wasting money unnecessarily on things that are not required or even desired. I’m even less interested in being strong-armed into doing something that I don’t want to do or feel that is in my best interest.

With that said, I do plan on attending Parent's Weekend to see my son for the first time since dropping him off on I-Day. I am not going to with the intent to buy more KP/USMMA paraphernalia from the various Parent's Associations nor do I need a "goodie bag". I bought what I needed during my son’s overnight visit in April and on I-Day.

Finally, I’m tired of reading posts that state we should be happy to pay the $150 per person since we don’t have to pay for our son/daughter’s education and I’m tire of posts that say if we don’t pay the fee there won’t be another Parents Weekend after this year. Those arguments don’t hold weight with me, especially coming from many who appear to be alumni and others who don’t have a son/daughter currently at USMMA. If the argument claiming we should gladly pay since we don’t have to pay for their education was even the slightest bit valid, then the Parents Association should charge $250 or $300 per person? That way the Parents Association could make even more money that they claim will be going to support our midshipmen.
 
I was going to avoid this thread, but can't resist anymore.

First, I agree that the argument that someone should not object to the cost of an extra event because they're not paying tuition is not really valid. Apples and oranges.

Second, in response to no other academy charges for Parents Weekend. Well, KP has come under scrutiny recently and some things that were done in the past have been deemed inappropriate by the government. Uncle Sam says KP can't pay, the parents assoc. has to. I would not be surprised to see things start to change at the other academies as USNA finances are now being examined.

Third, it would have been nice if the breakdown of the costs and explanation had been clearer. But let's remember that the people organizing this are VOLUNTEERS! They are faced with a new situation and are trying to organize an event of the sort that KP families have come to expect.

Fourth, those tents are well worth it. I think torrential rains on Parents Weekend must be standard weather. In 2008 we were had the remnants of a hurricane that hit just after the first quarter of the football game. Boy were we glad for the tents and chairs!

Costs incurred by the parents association that I can see immediately:
- Tents (Huge expense of rental, deposit, set up, take down - huge chunk of money here!) And it's not as if there really are enough indoor spaces where people can gather comfortably.
- Tables and chairs (Again, rental, delivery, set up/take down)
- Food (Costs of food will include staff, set up, clean up, etc. After having purchased individual meals in other college dining facilities, I'd expect this to be at least $30 per person for 2 meals.
- General supply costs like paper, badge materials, printer ink. These costs add up much more quickly for an event like this than people realize.
- Is the Parents Assoc. being charged for additional security costs? It's not unknown for the government to pass those sorts of costs on to event organizers.
- Goody bags will be a small portion of the budget. But for those parents who haven't visited KP and already bought things, these are nice. I still love my huge canvas tote from USAA that proudly states I'm the parent of a KP mid.
- Beat Retreat. I have to admit, I'm not sure how they expect to get everyone into the space. But everyone always says this is a must see, and it is. Be prepared for it to be hot in there! This was never a "cheap event."
- Football game ticket

The fundraiser booths for the various regional parents associations are a way for them to fund the wonderful things they do for our mids. No one should feel pressured to buy. But they certainly should be able to be there. Besides, it's a good chance to meet other families and learn about what the associations do. It's as much about networking as it is about fundraising.

A few closing thoughts:
- If you don't like the way this was organized and publicized, remember it was done by volunteers. Why don't you volunteer to help with planning next year?

- This event is a chance for you to meet and get to know other KP parents, including your P/C's friends and company mates. It's human nature that parents who have paid may feel resentment towards parents who don't buy a badge. Sorry, but it feels like you're freeloading at an event I'm helping to pay for. And I'm going under the tent when it rains, so you won't be able to chat with me. You may not agree with that reaction, but it will happen nonetheless.

- The Parents Association has made a real effort to keep costs down for those bringing grandparents and other children. That cost gets distributed across the other tickets. Maybe there is another way to do the pricing plan. Maybe you have ideas for how to do it. Stop complaining here and do something constructive. (Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine when people complain about how volunteers have done something but won't make any effort to volunteer themselves to help out. I realize that not everyone can actually help out, for various reasons. But there are more constructive ways to make suggestions than venting here.)

Sadly, we won't be able to make it to Parents Weekend this year because we will be in the midst of moving back to the US. But we will be there next year for DDs first class year. And without a doubt, we will be buying badges.
 
Those arguments don’t hold weight with me, especially coming from many who appear to be alumni and others who don’t have a son/daughter currently at USMMA. If the argument claiming we should gladly pay since we don’t have to pay for their education was even the slightest bit valid, then the Parents Association should charge $250 or $300 per person? That way the Parents Association could make even more money that they claim will be going to support our midshipmen.

I think the arguments from alumni would hold even more weight than those who are parents. The reason for this is that we have actually experienced the life of a Kings Pointer for 4 (or more) years.


But anyway, I'm not sure why people are so upset about the parent's association charging money and to me what seems like a reasonable amount for 2-3 days of activities. It's not like the parent's association takes this money and runs off to Aruba for a personal vacation. This money will have a direct impact on future activities, to include Parent's weekends in the future. Will it ever dissapear completely? Doubtful, even if it is a losing venture; however, you will be hard pressed to get it to grow and be even better each year if the people running it have to cut back each year.

In all seriousness, look at the parent's association website. If you don't feel the activities covered by the badges are what you want to do then don't buy one. Maybe make a donation to the parent's association or something similar. Even if you don't partake in the things covered by the badges you will still gain some fringe benefits.

I'm not trying to strong-arm someone into buying something they don't want, my personal opinion is that you should support the parent's association in their endeavor. All it's going to do is enhance the experience.

In reality you're probably only going to really buy this stuff for plebe year anyway...after that you're either not going to go OR you are already going to know what you want to do and it's not going to be on campus.
 
To add to the point by KP2001 about this being possibly only a 1 yr expense for families:
If your plebe candidate ends up a b-split for sea yr, s/he won't even be on campus for parents weekend again until they are seniors/1st class. Once you have been to parents weekend, you will realize how sad that is for b-split parents because the weekend is such a wonderful event.

It saddens me that the parents association is taking such a beating over the fees and fee structure. They are volunteers and doing this because they believe in KP and our kids AND BECAUSE THEY FULLY APPRECIATE HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO BE A NOVICE KP PARENT DURING PLEBE YEAR. They are doing this for the parents!!! Not to make money, not to bilk other parents but for the parents!

I will miss parents weekend as a b-split parent. I almost signed up anyway but common sense took over. We need to be spending the money to travel to KP when our DS is there on campus!!
 
From the view of a new parent

I have been watching this, and all the other, threads addressing the charges for parents weekend and have a few points I'd like to make.

1.) We've never been to a "parents weekend/Acceptance Day" before. We are certainly excited, and looking forward to, seeing our son but the rest of it is lost on us. Sure, people say don't miss this and don't miss that and it's a wonderful experience but not having "done it" these are just words. And I am not doubting anyone's word, but it is not easy to truly understand what to expect for the weekend. In my mind this is what leads to some of the confusion over the costs.

2.) No matter what we decided to do, purchase badges or join the freeloader train, this entire issue will tarnish this weekend. Right or wrong, for me, it already has. :frown:
 
If you’re worried about the cost of parent's weekend wait till the bill comes in for the ring, ring dance, and graduation week...this from a "Past Parent" :eek:.

KPatKP...don't stress over a blog on a website. The minute you get to sit down with you PC on parent's weekend, all will be well with the world :smile:.

As for ending the Parent's weekend...yes they could (staff would actually probably love that). They could go back to the old Saturday Parade and Sports events with leave discretional for Saturday/Sunday...No tours, No lunch, No extra time with your PC.

Again, as a “Past Parent”, and someone who attended three Parent’s events, there is no amount of money that can replace that “Warm Fuzzy Feeling” you will receive when you see your PC that first time.


Just Saying :bang:
 
Apologies all around

It is not in my nature to sow discord. As the author of this thread, I repent in dust and ashes.

It seems that I stepped into a controversy that I did not know existed.

Most of those who have been offended by my question and the arguments that followed have inside knowledge of Parents' Weekend. You understood the fee structure for what it was. My question seemed, from your perspective, like stinginess or, worse, ingratitude. I am neither cheap nor an ingrate. I was just confused.

Originally, I understood the pitch for the badges to be, "You should buy this because it will be to your benefit." With that understanding, I sought to learn whether or not the badges were a good value. That does not seem cheap or ungrateful to me. This discussion has made it clear to me that the actual reason for purchasing the badges is to be supportive of a good cause to the benefit of a community in which I now hold membership. That, for me, is a different proposition. An even better one, if you ask me.

I look forward to the weekend's festivities and am grateful to all those who have given selflessly to the effort.

Over and out.
 
I don't think apologies are necessary. I think this so far has been healthy discord on parent's weekend and even though a handful have particpated there are likely many, many more who come on here without registering and read the responses. These people are also getting the benefit of this discussion, which I completely believe to be valid.

It has brought about some very valid points in my eyes:
1)Communication: the website for parent's weekend is slightly confusing. Make it easier to understand.
2)Explanations: Make it completely understood what the badge gets you or doesn't get you.
3)Cost: At what point does it become cost-prohibitive. If people believe the current price structure to be a bit much, maybe the parent's association will need to take a look at that and see what they can cut out/back on for future to make the price slightly less.
4)Options: people want options, they like the ability to choose based on what they are going to do. I realize the constraints for this year, but maybe work on next year being able to offer more "a la carte" options.

I am a big fan of constructive criticism and suggestions. (the only part of Lean Six Sigma I really care for). I love it when my suggestion box at my office is overflowing, even with sometimes what seems like frivolous stuff. It helps me realize what is important to others.

In my eyes this has been a great thread in this regard. Nobody should hopefully take anything personally.
 
Agreed

KP2001 is correct. And I did not intend for it to sound that my dismay was due to the discussions on these boards. It did not. Indeed the comments made me feel better realizing that I was not the only one with these questions.
 
Costs incurred by the parents association that I can see immediately:
- Tents (Huge expense of rental, deposit, set up, take down - huge chunk of money here!) And it's not as if there really are enough indoor spaces where people can gather comfortably.
- Tables and chairs (Again, rental, delivery, set up/take down)
- Food (Costs of food will include staff, set up, clean up, etc. After having purchased individual meals in other college dining facilities, I'd expect this to be at least $30 per person for 2 meals.
- General supply costs like paper, badge materials, printer ink. These costs add up much more quickly for an event like this than people realize.
- Is the Parents Assoc. being charged for additional security costs? It's not unknown for the government to pass those sorts of costs on to event organizers
.
- Goody bags will be a small portion of the budget. But for those parents who haven't visited KP and already bought things, these are nice. I still love my huge canvas tote from USAA that proudly states I'm the parent of a KP mid.
QUOTE]

To clarify, those Proud Parent bags are donated free of charge each year at each of the 5 SAs by the company - no cost to SA, Parents Association/Clubs or parents.
 
^^ You're right. That was a poor choice for an example. The bag was donated by USAA. (And we're long time customers of USAA.) However, I'd guess the other expenses I suggest are quite valid.
 
my 2 cents

Parents,

Finances (for 4 it was about $3,000 for parents weekend) are always a consideration for out of state families attending parents weekend and we will expect that much and more for graduation. Add in some fancy dresses.

With the stress of traveling with younger siblings, maneuvering around
"new york city" & airports, seeing DS and his new school, it can and will be truly overwhelming. Enjoy it for what it is, you only get this once.

However, would not have traded it for anything. Felt like a "groupie" outside of first co dorm along with many parents, enjoyed observing his classes,
got a big kick out of him playing tour guide, watching the sports, meeting some kids from his "circle", eating at delano (he did tell us that the food we got was far superior to normal), and noticing that he is already, in a good way, different.

Just wanted to say that DS was required to attend all the sporting events (volleyball & football) and beat retreat. We thought we would have more access to him but he needed to follow orders. And yes, we purchased all the "ala carte" tickets, but they were a bit cheaper than this year.

PS Make late dinner arrangements, we barely made 9 pm at a restaurant in greenwich village (perilla's, we are top chef fans).

PPS He did thank us for dressing appropriately, not sure why it was important
or what had been said to him, but just wanted to pass that along to the new
families.

Have fun and your plebe will thank you for being there.
 
wow, I finally got on here and after reading this entire thread feel I have to put in my 2 cents!

I am sorry if the parents are upset about the costs. I for one can tell you that we are not in any way gouging parents for money. I did the best I could on the website, albeit it was hard to set up. I'm just a volunteer mom trying to make this weekend great for all involved, especially the new parents. To be honest I'm quite upset with the response we've gotten from this and other threads, the number of phone calls and emails I've received . Again, I am a volunteer just trying to make a magical weekend for everyone. Since all the change with funding last year, if me and 3 other volunteers had not stepped up to the plate there would be no festivities at all for the weekend. Case closed.

My son's plebe parent weekend was wonderful, and truly a fond memory and since we've changed the venue to Melville this years will most likely be the best ever!

Ok, with all this said, I want to make everyone aware. The more you complain and voice discord, the more likely that any future parent weekend event will be canceled, including this one. Not trying to threaten anyone, but just stating the way things work, especially when the government is involved.

It cost me quite a bit of money for parents weekend 3 years ago, and I too was scratching my head saying "what is this $300+" for. After getting there and realizing what it was for then it made no difference!

Lastly, as stated before the Natl. parents Assoc. is a nonprofit. Which means nonprofit. If there is money left over it goes back into performing our mission, which is to support the midshipmen and parents of USMMA.
 
Badge

It is troubling to me that volunteers often times get frustrated and aggravated after giving the task at hand their best shot. That should never happen, but often time does, unfortunately.

Parent's Day Weekend--- From what I can tell, the source of a lot of angst is the cost of a "badge"....

Can any of the volunteers tell us what the tents and chair rental and the cost of the meals by Melville will cost??

I think if more people, like myself, have more information on the actual costs of the weekend to the "Parents Club", the pricing decisions may make more sense.
 
I can give a price for the 40'X100' white tent for here in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania... this rental is approx $2500. And that is just the tent, nothing else! And we are in the middle of nowhere....

I have a friend who lives in Great Neck. Her house is a modest size, nothing extravagant, and her taxes on her property are over $25,000 per year! Maybe that number will help to put some perspective on the cost of doing business in the Village of Great Neck and the Kings Point area. I just could not image paying $25,000 per year in taxes! That's over 2 grand per month!
 
We will not know the full costs until after the event is done and paid for. You can speak with your local state association president and I'm sure they will be able to give you a breakdown of actual money received as this will be reported at the next president's conference.

The Natl. Parents Association, Inc. is a NON PROFIT. This means that, if, IF, IF, IF we have any money left over it will go back to the Midshipmen/Plebe at Kings Point in some form. Come on parents, especially you new ones, you cannot possibly have a clue how difficult this school is for our kids. If you did you would gladly pay the money, enjoy the weekend and pray that there is enough left over to just give a little something nice back to the students.
 
We will not know the full costs until after the event is done and paid for. You can speak with your local state association president and I'm sure they will be able to give you a breakdown of actual money received as this will be reported at the next president's conference.

The Natl. Parents Association, Inc. is a NON PROFIT. This means that, if, IF, IF, IF we have any money left over it will go back to the Midshipmen/Plebe at Kings Point in some form. Come on parents, especially you new ones, you cannot possibly have a clue how difficult this school is for our kids. If you did you would gladly pay the money, enjoy the weekend and pray that there is enough left over to just give a little something nice back to the students.

kpmom2011
Those of us who have been to parents weekend, appreciate the efforts of the parents association. Perhaps you have to have experienced one to understand. I have not read one negative comment from a parent who has participated in the weekend in the past. Once people go, they will get it. We can hope that those who choose not to contribute and buy badges, will make a contribution in that amount after the fact.

Before you feel totally discouraged, think back to last year when there were also many questions- perhaps not of the same intensity- but we were confused by our choices, too. Last year was a torrential downpour year, with many activities canceled or curtailed, the tents leaked,half the tables were unusable for lunch, the grounds had pools of water, the food ran out, some of the food was terrible... and you haven't read one complaint from a 2013 parent who attended!! We'd all love to experience the magic of Acceptance Weekend as Plebe parents again. :thumb::thumb:
 
Okay folks, here's the deal....

The thread has pretty much run it's course and of the total of four volunteers who are running this weekend I have now heard from two of them.

They are simply getting "beaten up" and it is beginning to feel personal. They've put alot of hard work into the upcoming weekend and want to see it succeed. They've done the best they can with the lot they were handed. They've set the prices were they are based on their reasoning and cost estimates.

People can either take it or leave it, for this year it is what it is. I suggest you attend and buy a badge, but that decision is yours and yours alone. After the weekend take a step back and make some constructive thoughts about the weekend and if you are the type of person who enjoys planning events then think about volunteering for the next year.

Parent's weekend is going to evolve over the coming years. This is the first year that it has been turned over without Academy support. Maybe they realize that the price was too high this year and they can reduce it next year. Maybe they realize that the price was too low and they either have to raise prices or cut back next year. The worst that can happen is the weekend is a big financial loss causing major changes for the next year. Which then causes the ball to continue rolling.

Overall, this is a HUGE year for Parent's Weekend. It really is a turning point.

I'm going to go ahead and close this thread as I think further discussion will probably simply cause it to become even more personal.

I'm always open to PM's if someone wants to talk to me directly. Please do not start a new thread on badges, etc.

Best of luck, remember Acta non Verba
 
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