Panel: Let women serve in combat roles

Honestly, some of the most entertainingly naive babble I've heard recently. As a biochemist, the high-schooler's assessment of neural chemistry (while clearly rote from [a likely outdated] article) brought enough laughter to bring tears to my eyes.

As for the other "theorizing," well I think it qualifies for "sea lawyer." (Navy friends, I think I understand the term?)

Quite frankly, this "quite solid logic" is quite a joke.
 
http://www.livestrong.com/article/68797-testosterone-muscle-growth/

Effects
Testosterone directly effects muscle growth by binding to receptors on the surface of muscle cells and amplifying the biochemical signals in muscle tissue that result in protein synthesis. Testosterone also increases levels of another growth factor, called growth hormone, that the body releases in response to exercise. Like testosterone, growth hormone increases protein synthesis and can result in increased muscle growth.

http://www.steadyhealth.com/article...le_structures__mental_and_physical__a613.html

6. Men have larger hearts and lungs, and their higher levels of testosterone cause them to produce greater amounts of red blood cells
7. Differences in intake and delivery of oxygen translates into some aspects of performance: when a man is jogging at about 50% of his capacity, a woman will need to work at over 70% of her capacity to keep up with him.

http://www.military.com/military-fi...ements/army-physical-fitness-test-score-chart

http://www.military.com/military-fitness/army-fitness-requirements/army-pft-two-mile-run-score-chart

I suppose PFT's are all fun and games too, and don't actually test combat preparedness.
 
I suppose PFT's are all fun and games too, and don't actually test combat preparedness.

They don't. The only thing they show is that for two days out of the year (Army/Navy/USMC) or potentially only one day of the year (Air Force) that you are capable of passing a very minimal fitness test.

They are horrible indicators of overall fitness and I believe most services are beginning to realize this with the advent of additional testing in the USMC (I forget the name of it now, but you carry dummies and the such) and the Army is currently looking at different testing regimens.
 
Okay, I understand. But they are exercises that target key muscle groups that are often under stress during combat. You do use your biceps/triceps significantly every so often, as infantry/recon, you do experience significant use of your legs... Overall, you "endure" various periods of muscle stress and if you do not, you should be ready to. The PFT's are not absolutely useless, and do symbolize to some extent a serviceman's endurance, motivation, and regions of strength.
 
(e.g. a combination of prevailing hormones that prohibit most women from transcending their male counterparts in developing physically - despite allowing them a more socially-sound behaviorism for caring and socializing, especially for children); as well as in terms sympathetic nervous functions associated with lower levels of high-alert secretions such as noradrenaline, crucial to stressful or combatant environments,

Please, please, tell me I am mis-reading you.

Tell me you just didn't say our hormone level is the reason why we should not be able to compete in a combat situation?

For women, competing in a field dominated by men who in theory, stand greater probability of survival and efficiency in some of most demanding, physical tasks around, may not be the wisest choice if they do so for pure appeasement of their desire to carry a ruck and a firearm as their job.

Desire is a large factor in the military. I would rather have a woman who desired to carry the ruck than a guy who was in it for a paycheck.

Either way, if she can carry the rucksack at the same level of the man what's the problem?

She is the one that wants and she is the one that proved she earned just like Johnny Joe.

KP is correct. I can't tell you how many AF officers I know a month or 6 weeks out from their yrly PT start running daily and going to the gym, just for the test. They pass it and that's it for their pt routine for the next 46 weeks.
 
Oxford, not a personal attack, but a clarification.

Your facts about testosterone, heart, and lungs are all quite correct - as population averages. This is the flaw in your logic. Once you (we, collectively) recognize that "...[the average man] has a larger heart and lungs" than the average woman, and "when [the average] man is jogging at about 50% of his capacity, [the average] woman will need to work at over 70% of her capacity to keep up with him" (emphasis mine), we are back to usna1985's, Pima's & others' conclusions. If the job requires intellect, then the selection criteria applied to each individual should be based upon those characteristics - black, white, male, female, gay, straight, American Indian are not then selection criteria. For jobs requiring physical prowess, then the selection criteria applied to each individual should be based upon that - black, white, male, female, gay, straight, American Indian are not then selection criteria.
 
I agree that those are simply averages and are not representative of a wholesome sample, I am simply declaring that if you put America's population on a line and fire the starting gun chances are pretty near conclusive that the last man standing will in fact be, a man.

Not to withhold the fact that the topic being debated involves potentiating all females for combatant service. (This means that the sample of females to analyze is in fact to be representative of the average female)...

I didn't spawn the human race and dictate each chromosome's advantages, but I'm pretty sure that extra X has caused a significant impact on the growth and development of males as opposed to females :/

Combatant tasks in the military are undoubtedly those requiring that physical prowess among other traits that each gender waxes/wanes upon sectionally.

It is a statistical proof, not a sure-fire theory that men have advantage in regards to physical, athletic, and even competitive (aggressive) matters.

I'm not debating opinions, I'm simply holding one which has developed over years of studying psychological experiments associated with gender roles.
 
While physiologically and biologically there is a lot of truth that was written; albeit not popular; I think the real question is: "Is it enough of a difference"?

Here's the simplest analogy I can think of.

I have a Corvette with a 427 cubic inch engine in it. You have a ford focus with a 122 cubic inch engine in it. My corvette has a bigger engine (Heart). The transmission can also help make it go faster than the Ford Focus. HOWEVER: We BOTH use our cars to travel on a 60 mph highway for 30 minutes each day to go to work. Does it really matter if my Corvette can go faster than your focus? I don't NEED my Corvette to go faster. Yes, it has more reserved energy available, but do I need it. If I NEEDED to pull a trailer or a boat, would that larger 427 engine in my corvette be MORE EFFICIENT than a 305 cui engine in a pickup truck that has a transmission and suspension better designed for pulling.

In other words: It doesn't matter if a man's physical and biologic capabilities are stronger/faster/etc... than a woman's, IF the additional capabilities aren't required. We need to separate "COMBAT" from "JOB or MISSION". A fighter pilot can be in "COMBAT", but you don't need to be 200 lbs, able to bench press 300 lbs, and run 1/4 mile in under 1 minute. However: A Navy Seal or Air Force PJ is ALSO combat and might need to be able to carry a 200+ lb person, they might need to be one of the fastest in running. Their physical requirements; and even emotional/psychological requirements might be such that a man would have an "Easier" chance of accomplishing such tasks.

But because we can't deal with "Averages"; and because each individual is unique and different; we need to simply state the requirements and standards for a particular JOB or MISSION; combat relevant or not; and allow those interested in such a job to "try" for it. If a job like a green beret, seal, etc... anticipates being able to climb a lot of ropes up and down buildings, bridges, etc... and the standard is set for doing 100 feet in "X" seconds: then that's the standard. If a person meets ALL the standards, then they should be allowed to perform in that job. And the job may require emotional/mental/psychological standards also. Applicants need to be tested in these also for acceptance and qualification.

Basically, we need to neutralize the gender requirement. HONESTLY LIST the requirements for a job. Physical, emotional, psychological, height, weight, strength, etc... List ALL THE REQUIREMENTS. And that is all you worry about. THEN: You have the "Pregnancy Theory". (NO, I'm not talking about a woman getting pregnant). Pregnancy theory means: DEFINITIVE YES OR NO!!! Which means.... YOU ARE.... OR YOU"RE NOT. Once the requirements/standards are set.... A person PASSES those standards, OR THEY DON'T. There is no "In between". Doesn't matter if they are male or female; gay or straight; black or white; tall or short; etc... They pass the standards or not. There are SO MANY DIFFERENT jobs/missions that are combat oriented; to say that a woman can't be in combat is simply ignorance. An individual woman might do real well in passing the standards to be a tank driver, but might fail at becoming a seal. An individual male might do well at becoming a PJ but fail at becoming a fighter pilot. COMBAT and the Jobs/Missions "Within that Combat role" are 2 totally different things. Simply create practical and other standards for jobs/missions/etc... and allow "INDIVIDUALS" to apply or attempt those jobs if they're interested in them. If they pass the standards/requirements, then they can perform in that job. If they can't, then they don't perform in that job.

I won't get into the whole "Emotional" side of the argument. e.g. woman captured; tortured; man's instinct to protect women; etc... Why? Because I've seen BOTH men and women in similar situations. I've seen BOTH men and women who handled the stress in the middle east and panama "under life threatening" situations BOTH handle them cool, calm, and collected; as well as panicked, emotional, crying. I don't believe that either gender has a market on their emotions. Our military and "war time" environment, is not the same today as it was during vietnam, korea, WWII/I. It's not even the same as the 80's when I remember Panama and Libya. Society might have an emotional opinion of a woman in combat, but the military shouldn't have an emotional opinion. Most military personnel couldn't care less. Just like with gays in the military. But in society, the american people will react different when a newspaper article says: "25 year old soldier died. He left behind a wife and 2 year old son....."; compared to: "25 year old soldier died. She was the mother of a 2 year old son". But that's society, and will be handled separately.

But for the military; it's quite simple. Establish honest, accurate, and meaningful standards and requirements for the jobs/career fields. Establish the physical, emotional, academic, psychological, etc... requirements. Then; allow ANYONE who wants to become that career field, apply. If they pass all the physical, emotional, academic, psychological, etc... requirements; then then can be in that job. I don't care about physical FITNESS. I care about PHYSICAL CAPABILITIES!!!! If they believe you need to be able to carry 200 lbs, then that's the requirement. If you have to be able to run 5 miles in "X" amount of time, then that's the requirement. Man or Woman.

Sorry for writing a novel, but there IS a difference between men and women. And SOMETIMES those difference are significant for what is trying to be accomplished. (e.g. I suck as Breast Feeding. "No pun intended"). Sometimes those differences are irrelevant. If the requirement is to travel 55mph for 30 minutes a day, on a straight and level road, then it doesn't matter if the Corvette with the 427 is 4X bigger than the ford focus. The ford focus can easily meet the standard. Same with people. You can lift 300 lbs; I can lift 200 lbs. But if our job only NEEDS us to lift 150 lbs; does it matter if you are stronger???? Nope!!!!
 
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Well, Oxford, you're certainly entitled to your opinions - based, though they are, on faulty premises, arguments, and conclusions.

Peace out,

LAP
 
I didn't spawn the human race and dictate each chromosome's advantages, but I'm pretty sure that extra X has caused a significant impact on the growth and development of males as opposed to females :/

X is the female chromosome, Y is the male chromosome.
So for females it is XX and males it is XY.

I think you implied that X is male.
 
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The "statistical averages" and, frankly misrepresentation of the statistics for these purposes, are the same premises that spawned the logic of "social Darwinism" RE: racism. Just to name one 'popular' but horribly wrong movement. Like I said, the textbook citations of the effects of testosterone or norepinephrine as a logical argument for why males will always be better in the military is a JOKE. Statistically, a classic example of Simpson's paradox and confounding variables. The biochemical argument, still a joke to this biochemist.

Even more so today than ever before, wit and intellect are just as important as brute strength (RE: why didn't humanity die out when faced with lions, tigers, wolves, and other stronger and more physically capable animals?) So, your assumption that the "last man standing" will be a man because of brute strength is a joke, too.
 
Even more so today than ever before, wit and intellect are just as important as brute strength

What makes a good pilot great? WIT and INTELLECT aka SA. Granted I want every military member to pass the same PT, but when it comes to combat, PT is not everything, it is a big part of the equation, but only a PART. The ability to think will give anyone the upper hand.

I think oxford is new to forums like this and we should give them the benefit of doubt instead of playing dog pile.
 
This isn't an argument thread. This is simply a thread full of opinions, just like America is today.

There were no begrudging "conclusions" in my posts and if you wish to hold an opinion counter to mine, that's fine.

Regardless, I continue to hold, there are no flaws in the logic I reiterated, because it is not my logic to begin with, but simply a recapitulation of what is known to be fact today.

On average, men, due to having a greater abundance of testosterone on average are prone to various behaviors as well as biological functions that are not as prevalent in women on average. That is a fact, and deny as you feel, each gender has its restrictions on a basis as taken from a representative average population. There is a reason, why one has something protruding from their groin area and the other does not, the two are not the same. Boy and girl each have strengths and weaknesses.

Now, as far as interpreting "combat", I will have to reproach my previous interpretation and note Chris' input. Yes, physical aptitude is not nearly as applicable to multiple combatant professions including pilots. I made the mistake of inhibiting my focus and subjecting it solely to infantry-oriented occupations. Notwithstanding these allocations, wit and intellect are not as gender-specific characteristics and I do not have an opinion on their supremacy in either gender. Although, I believe a successful fighter (infantry) cannot rely only on such characteristics to survive.

Also, my apologies for attributing the incorrect chromosome pairing.
 
Statistically, a classic example of Simpson's paradox and confounding variables. The biochemical argument, still a joke to this biochemist.

Can you explain how Simpson’s paradox would be an argument. I am not debating what you said, I just started to learn about that I’m my statistics class so I am curious.
 
I think we all agree. Men and Women are different. Different from many stand points. But what matters; and ONLY MATTERS; is does a particular degree of difference matter, based on the task at hand. If the "Standard" physical requirement for a particular task requires an individual to climb a 30 foot rope in 60 seconds, and the "Average" male can do it in 40 seconds, and the "Average" female can do it in 50 seconds; does it matter if a male can do it faster or better? No, not at all. Again; does it matter if one care can go 150mph and the other can only go 90mph, if the speed limit is 75mph? No, not at all. So again; forget ALL you physiological and biological arguments. They have absolutely no relevance. What is relevant is:

1. Establishing accurate and relevant standards and measurements for a "SPECIFIC" job/career field, mission, etc... that is required to perform that task. Physical, emotional, psychological, etc...
2. Allow anyone who can pass/satisfy those standards and measurements to perform those tasks.

Why is ANYTHING else RELEVANT? It isn't. It doesn't matter at all how many "X" or "Y" chromosomes someone has. It doesn't matter the color of their skin. Yes, men may and on average WILL find performing certain physical tasks to be "Easier" than for a woman. There's no arguing that. But my point: "And I'm having a difficult time understanding why ANYONE would need to argue BEYOND my point"; is, if the standard set for a particular job/task/etc... can be met by an individual, then why does is matter if one individual can meet those standards better than another. You either meet the standards, or you don't. It really is that simple.

Of course, if the standard for a Navy Seal, for example required an individual to do 50 pushups; 10 pullups; and climb a 30 foot rope in 60 seconds; because upper body strength was determined to be a major essential part of being a navy seal, and they'd be expected to perform similar or relevant tasks operationally; then I don't believe those standards should be changed or altered to accommodate a female applicant. We're not talking a "PHYSICAL FITNESS", we're talking about "PHYSICAL CAPABILITIES". There's a big difference, and some people don't understand that. But it is possible that some jobs/missions/tasks/whatever you want to call it, could require such physical "Capabilities". In my job as an electronic tech/engineer, there were "Physical" requirements. You had to be able to lift 50 lbs and carry it certain distances. (A lot of the equipment I worked on was in a tactical environment and you had to move it quickly. You couldn't wait for someone to give you a hand. You couldn't be color blind. "Quick... CUT THE RED WIRE"!!! LOL!!! Our job required a lot of "Forward Air Control" TYPES of work in a tactical environment. So basic capabilities to run long distance; obstacle courses; etc... were considered required. Yes, we had a few women in my career field, but very few. But those who wanted it and could handle it, got into it. Of course there was the "Unfair" part where the guys would get deployed and the girls didn't. But that's a separate issue. As for doing the job, it's simple. Set the standards and let the "Individual" pass or fail the standards.
 
Can you explain how Simpson’s paradox would be an argument. I am not debating what you said, I just started to learn about that I’m my statistics class so I am curious.

Using total population averages is a poor, poor statistical use for this example. Simpson's paradox occurs, for example, when the averages of a large data set lead you to one conclusion, while accounting for more variables in the model leads to a more accurate conclusion. In this case, the number of confounding variables in mind-boggling. Mixed with this idea that norepinephrine or testosterone, based on their physiological roles, means males always win is silly. If you consider the population, it would be unwise to imagine it as having two humps with a male and female average. It would look far more continuous due to the variability within each population of males and females.
 
I think we all agree. Men and Women are different. Different from many stand points. But what matters; and ONLY MATTERS; is does a particular degree of difference matter, based on the task at hand. If the "Standard" physical requirement for a particular task requires an individual to climb a 30 foot rope in 60 seconds, and the "Average" male can do it in 40 seconds, and the "Average" female can do it in 50 seconds; does it matter if a male can do it faster or better? No, not at all. Again; does it matter if one care can go 150mph and the other can only go 90mph, if the speed limit is 75mph? No, not at all. So again; forget ALL you physiological and biological arguments. They have absolutely no relevance. What is relevant is:

1. Establishing accurate and relevant standards and measurements for a "SPECIFIC" job/career field, mission, etc... that is required to perform that task. Physical, emotional, psychological, etc...
2. Allow anyone who can pass/satisfy those standards and measurements to perform those tasks.

Why is ANYTHING else RELEVANT? It isn't. It doesn't matter at all how many "X" or "Y" chromosomes someone has. It doesn't matter the color of their skin. Yes, men may and on average WILL find performing certain physical tasks to be "Easier" than for a woman. There's no arguing that. But my point: "And I'm having a difficult time understanding why ANYONE would need to argue BEYOND my point"; is, if the standard set for a particular job/task/etc... can be met by an individual, then why does is matter if one individual can meet those standards better than another. You either meet the standards, or you don't. It really is that simple.

Of course, if the standard for a Navy Seal, for example required an individual to do 50 pushups; 10 pullups; and climb a 30 foot rope in 60 seconds; because upper body strength was determined to be a major essential part of being a navy seal, and they'd be expected to perform similar or relevant tasks operationally; then I don't believe those standards should be changed or altered to accommodate a female applicant. We're not talking a "PHYSICAL FITNESS", we're talking about "PHYSICAL CAPABILITIES". There's a big difference, and some people don't understand that. But it is possible that some jobs/missions/tasks/whatever you want to call it, could require such physical "Capabilities". In my job as an electronic tech/engineer, there were "Physical" requirements. You had to be able to lift 50 lbs and carry it certain distances. (A lot of the equipment I worked on was in a tactical environment and you had to move it quickly. You couldn't wait for someone to give you a hand. You couldn't be color blind. "Quick... CUT THE RED WIRE"!!! LOL!!! Our job required a lot of "Forward Air Control" TYPES of work in a tactical environment. So basic capabilities to run long distance; obstacle courses; etc... were considered required. Yes, we had a few women in my career field, but very few. But those who wanted it and could handle it, got into it. Of course there was the "Unfair" part where the guys would get deployed and the girls didn't. But that's a separate issue. As for doing the job, it's simple. Set the standards and let the "Individual" pass or fail the standards.

Absolutely. Agreed. There are definitely requirements that each can pass and tasks that each can compete for. In my previous references though, I was really getting down to the tasks that exhibit this sort of "competition" in a physical sense. The seal example you gave is in affirmation. In a given branch, it may not always matter who can be qualified but who actually is selectively admitted in terms of their results compared to the competition. :thumb:
 
Not to jump into your discussion, but does anyone have any educated guess as to when females will be able to serve in all military career fields? I have always wanted to be a PJ.
 
Not to jump into your discussion, but does anyone have any educated guess as to when females will be able to serve in all military career fields? I have always wanted to be a PJ.

Somewhere between tomorrow and 100 years. Nobody knows, your guess is as good as mine. By your username it seems like you’d rather be a pilot :yllol:
 
Thanks, no I just really enjoy the technology and how it changes:biggrin:
Planes are fascinating, but I think I would want to do something in special forces if given the opportunity:smile:
 
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