Perception vs Fact

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by AF6872, Jul 6, 2009.

  1. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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    In answer to statements on another Forum (Diversity) that was definately pulling into a siding. Perception is not fact. The incorrect perceptions were fueled by those who opposed the war and still not sufficiently disputed.

    "Of all the men and women who served in Vietnam, 275,000 or 10.6% were Black. The remaining 88.4% were Caucasian. Blacks represented approximately 12.5% of the population."

    "86.8% of those KIA were Caucasian, while 12.1% or 5,711, were Black"
    (2.08% of those 275,000 who served)

    "25% of those who actually served in Vietnam were drafted. The remaining 75% voluntered for service in the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard. Less than 38% of those KIA were draftees." One caveat here. Up until 1968 The Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard were all volunteer which probably messes the numbers. In 1968 the Marines started pulling draftees.

    Just the facts maam. These figures are from The Combat Area Casualty File (CAFC1193) November 1993. This is the authority for the Wall.
     
  2. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Don't confuse anti-war protesters with facts. Their brains are wired only to process emotions and propaganda. You'll scare them and be labeled a bigot, which as we all know is defined as, "Anyone who is winning an argument with a liberal".
     
  3. mombee

    mombee Banned

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    Facts, like statistics, can say anything one wants them to. In the mid '60s, many front line units were half black. African American casualty rates were in the 20% range. This was an underlying cause of the Watts, among others, riots. It took a conscientious effort by Army brass to reduce it to the overall statistics AF6872 reported above. And again, it was a perception which is still effecting us today getting quality diversity at the SAs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  4. bruno

    bruno Retired Staff Member

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    I've tried to steer away from this and in fact believe that diversity is a worthwhile goal for the military officer corps and by extension the academies: but Mombee- you are seriously wrong and essentially are trying to argue "damn the facts - i know what I know" The statistics cited are the reality and the casualty rates are what they are - which is what AF6872 is citing. There are far better arguments to use if your goal is to justify the push to expand diversity at the SAs.
     
  5. mombee

    mombee Banned

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    Yes, like I stated above, AF6872's overall facts are correct. However, 60% of overall casualties happened prior to 1969. Seventy five percent of all black casualties occurred during the same period. Interestingly, only 40% of overall Hispanic casualties were during the same period. Prior to 1969, blacks suffered disproportionate losses. After 1969, it was the same for Hispanics. Army leadership was ordered by the White House to take blacks out of harms way. As another aside, to skew things further to the front line drafted grunt, 13% of all Vietnam casualties were officers.

    Go down to your local library and do your own informal survey. Look through the Time-Life Vietnam series chronologically and do the ratios for front-line troops. It is not 12.5%, especially during the early parts of the war.

    The Fleming article has brought out two rallying points for the conservative right, the disparity of SAT scores (discussed in another thread) and the necessity for the increased effort to 'recruit' diversity. Call USNA and talk to any minority admissions officer and ask them if the above perception does not continue to be an issue. I had no intention at all to use this as an example of the necessity of diversity but only to show it as one of the two main hurdles of diversity.

    The following article also alludes to this issue:

    http://hamptonroads.com/2008/07/60-years-after-integration-blacks-rare-top-military-officers

    The fact is that these perceptions cause a necessity for an increased recruiting effort in order to capture 'the best and the brightest' of these groups.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  6. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    Mombee, do you work at the USNA Admissions and are your comments consistent with Naval policy or just your opinions?

    Best and brightest seems to be morphing into: best and brightest "of these groups" because of perceptions?
     
  7. mombee

    mombee Banned

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    Yes

    In this case, yes.

    No

    Perhaps this is another instance where perception and fact are not the same.
     
  8. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    Since you only post here while at work, I'll assume it's official; when are the USNA Class of 2013 statistics due to be out?

    TYIA
     
  9. mombee

    mombee Banned

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    Another example of the dichotomy of perception and facts.
     
  10. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Incorrect. Facts are facts, no matter what the perception of them is. Admittedly, however, those can be cherry-picked to reflect a pre-desired goal or belief. The same for statistics. It doesn't change the underlying reality, though, just the way it is perceived by the recipient.

    That is why it is so important to be aware of who it is that's telling you something, and whether they have a personal stake in it.
     
  11. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    No, just a guess but you do post a lot from work.

    You should be a great resource here! Again, when are the stats of the USNA "Class of 2013" coming out?
     
  12. mombee

    mombee Banned

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    Normally takes a couple of weeks to factor out the no-shows. Look for it the last week in July.
     
  13. mombee

    mombee Banned

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    If this isn't what I said, it is exactly what I meant to say. Thanks for clarifying.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2009
  14. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    Thanks, I was worried that this:

    *******************************************************
    SCHOLASTIC ASSESSMENT TEST (SAT):

    Average SAT scores national comparison for USNA Class of 2013

    Hispanics average top 5% scores for all college bound Hispanic students.

    African Americans average top 6% for all college bound African American students.

    Caucasian average top 11% for all college bound Caucasian students.
    *******************************************************


    was going to be it for the Class of 2013, USNA's press release. If memory serves, I thought the actual break down was posted with the I day release last year but I could be wrong.
     
  15. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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    What does it say about a society that during the first years of a conflict (a) recognizes the disproportionate impact of a discriminatory draft on the casualty rates of a minority population and (b) makes it a matter of policy to reduce those minority casualty rates by increasing the probability of casualties in the majority population?

    The draft ended in 1973. The military actively recruits minorities by highlighting increased career opportunities across all job fields. By 1990, at the outset of Desert Storm, the percentage of Blacks in the all volunteer military was approximately 23%. The percentage in the Army was approximately 32%. If Desert Storm had been the fiasco many pundits predicted and the casualty rates were proportional would we have again heard the outcries against another genocidal war? You can't win.
     
  16. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    That's because the people doing the outcrying don't give a damn about the people they claim to represent. They simply use them as pawns to get power for themselves.

    And to think that some people actually believe that slavery ended after the Civil War... :rolleyes:

    ETA: Think about it: We have a black President. We've had black Senators, Supreme Court Justices, Doctors, Commanders, CEO's, and celebrities galore. Yet somehow this is still the "US of KKKA". Go figure.
     
  17. indexer

    indexer Banned

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    Maybe they read the Free Republic,

    and thought it was USKKA.
     
  18. BeatNavy

    BeatNavy USMA Cadet

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  19. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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    A Troll strikes again. Maybe they just looked at a book once or twice. "There is neither East or West nor border nor breed nor birth, When two strong men come face to face though they come from the ends of the earth" My appologies to Kipling.
     
  20. mombee

    mombee Banned

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    A proactive MOC, through Academy Days and other PR programs, would ensure that he had sufficient qualified candidates.
     

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