PIMA & fencersmother take over the world

Our son's UPT class at Vance started with 27 and only 20 made it to track select, and they were told there were would be no washbacks (non medical) for failure (just not enough funds).

Graduated from AFA: May 2013
Report date to Vance: early August 2013 (after ~60 days of leave from AFA graduation)
IFS start date: late Sept. 2013
UPT start date: November 2013
Track date: June 2014
UPT Graduation scheduled for: Dec. 2014
 
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The non-medical were not washed back during our DS's class either. That has been the situation for at least a year now. One of our DSs closest friends got an 88 flight, than had to do an 89, and then was told goodbye. That occurred when they were in the T-1 phase, halfway through that track.

Even medical waivers are becoming IFFY for washing back.

Our DSs class at Laughlin had about the same stats by track time. They had 28 to start with, 21 tracked, 7 medical wash backs added into their class and 21 eventually winged.
 
Pima said:
The non-medical were not washed back during our DS's class either. That has been the situation for at least a year now. One of our DSs closest friends got an 88 flight, than had to do an 89, and then was told goodbye. That occurred when they were in the T-1 phase, halfway through that track.

Even medical waivers are becoming IFFY for washing back.

Our DSs class at Laughlin had about the same stats by track time. They had 28 to start with, 21 tracked, 7 medical wash backs added into their class and 21 eventually winged.
Click to expand...

Assuming 88=IPC, 89=FPC like for us?

Three years is a bit of a surprise. That's about what my timeline from commissioing to fleet is going to look like, with 6 months of that being TBS and another ~10 months or so waiting between schools. Many of my Navy friends who went helos or multiengine made it to the fleet as Ensigns.
 
If that means you busted a check ride, got an 88, than busted the 89, than yes it is the same.

Our friends DS just winged (18s) 3 weeks ago, and he reported to UPT July 2012. He will be reporting to his squadron @ now to learn the 18. I highly doubt they are different than the AF and just throw you guys up in the air with an 18 without academics, sims, and check rides. Note DS started UPT 10 months after commissioning, and winged 2 months before our friends DS while our friend never went casual status, started in July 12. It is the clog in the pipeline that caused the slowdown. Also notice fencers other DS that went immediately to whiting...they were clogged too. Her C130 DS that went casual to the AFA actually winged earlier.

The differende for the AF is my schedule included it to the point of actually being operational, mission ready. The AF has school houses for airframes. I.E. 15E pilots/csos go to SJAFB for @6-9 months. They arrive knowing which base they will be assigned to upon completion. I.E. SJ, Lakenheathm or Mt. Home. They then will have their area check, which is usually done no later than 45 days after arriving at their base.
~ DS got Dyess, but he also could have received Little Rock and just PCAd from the schoolhouse to the op squadron. I am assuming that is basically how the Navy works....the school house is at your base, there is no one place like the AF.

So as you can see my schedule is not to winging, but operational, which would be @ 3 years from commissioning, and a year of that can be casual status.

The AF decided in part to stop the joint Whiting UPT because they realized the Navy was taking 2x as long to wing the students compared to the AF counterpart.

What my friend told me that I thought was interesting was how the Navy UPT system works.
~ In the AF, unless a medical turn back you will wing with the people you started with the day you enter, be it tracking fighter or heavy. Everyone is held together as a group. Our DS was ahead of his peers at one point in flight terms, but he had to wait and not fly for @3 weeks until everyone caught up to him, and they all could move onto the next phase.

They told me it is not that way for the Navy, and that they slide the students into the next phase when there are openings.

That winging is also different in the Navy than the AF. For the AF it is a 3 day event culminating with a Dining Out. The regular base tours, sims, award ceremonies and pinning are there too, but not the big welcome cocktail party, the morning breakfast and the ball. She had told me they only had @14 wing, and only a few started with her DS back in July 2012.

Maybe the Navy is speeding up now, but that has always been the AF timeline. Bullet commissioned AFROTC May 87 as a WSO, winged Nov 88, RTU Aug 89, MQ Jan 90.

I am not trying to be pro AF negative Navy, just saying that from an operational perspective this is a marathon for both. You have to understand that anyone that wings has given their heart, soul, mind and everything in between for years to get operational in the rated world. It is something I am incredibly proud to say my DH and DS belong to that club.
~ No flaming from those that go non-rated, many of my closest GFs are married to non-rated, and they earn my respect too. Just saying this page started as a brag page and the irony that two posters who joined when their boys were 17, took different paths, end up getting the same plane at the same base out the same UPT class. What are the odds of that?
~~~ Add in the % that don't commission, make it through IFS, and it is OMG can you believe that? 2 out of their class got C-130Js to Dyess...our two boys. Just in those odds, including IFS and it is probably 5%, add in commissioning, reporting at the same time to the same base, and it has to be in the less than 1/100th of 1%. There are about 300 students a year that wing at Laughlin, now add in Vance, Columbus, ENJJPT and you have 1200 winging a year. I also add in the chances of getting CSO, ABM and RPA into my equation, which were possibilities my DS faced as an AFROTC cadet.
 
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Pima,

Are you saying that your son's class lost 7 more after tracking?
 
Pima said:
words
Click to expand...

No worries. I wasn't trying to start some Navy vs. AF thing, I was just surprised how long that was. I was always under the impression the Air Force moved faster. Three years is, like I said, Marine-level-time.
 
There was a student at UPT with our sons who busted the 88, then the 89, and wound up not winging at all, after a full year at UPT. It was heartbreaking to know about it and learn the details. Just horrific, but there was no washback, no do over, no anything but gone.

So, even if you do make it through UPT, don't count yourself winged until you actually get those wings on the stage!
 
Aggie,

Yep...7 more were lost in the T-38/T-1 phase.

One of DS's groomsman at his wedding was 1 one of them. DS proposed 7/5, asked him Nov. when they got their wedding date sorted out, @ 6 weeks after tracking. He said yes. January he was FEB'd.
~ He sat casual until mid April. He is now Intel.
~~ I know that because the invites were sent in April and I mailed it to Del Rio.

The latest drops are not pretty compared to earlier drops.

XL 14-12 Active Duty

T-38s

A-10
F-15C
T-6 FAIP
T-38 FAIP
T-38 ADAIR (Tyndall)

T-1s

KC-135
KC-10 X 4
EC-130
C-130
C-21
C-17
C-5
C-146
RC-135
T-1 FAIP
U-28 X 2

Columbus's T38 drop had:
F-15E
F-16
B-2
T-6 FAIP
E-3

Don't know T1 drop

VN 14-12 was:

T-38s

F-15 -- Seymour Johnson
F-16 -- Holloman (x2)
CV-22 -- Hurlburt
F-16 -- Turkey
T-6 FAIP

T-1s

C-17 -- Charleston (x2)
C-17 -- McChord
KC-135 -- Fairchild
KC-135 -- McConnell
C-130J -- Ramstein
C-130J -- Little Rock
HC-130J -- Moody
C-130H -- Yokota
U-28 -- Hurlburt

6 more winged at Vance, but they were ANG or AFRC....basically they were tracked the minute they entered UPT.

for our DS's class he 1 Guard if I recall.
 
Holy cow! Thanks to you all.

I am going to guess that the first drop listing was for Laughlin?

This site is great all along the journey, thank you all for the information. DS 3 weeks from Phase 1 completion - had IFS last August and was casual until February for UPT. UPT has, by his account, been far harder than anything he has done before, still not "out of the woods" to finish phase 1.

He has indicated there is a trend towards more students wanting to go T1's than before - not sure what the other groups have experienced.

Also, not sure what makes up for a "bad drop" - are there certain planes which are undesirable to most?

Thanks again,
C
 
SO many folks worry about "the drop" and "what the drop consists of..."

Folks...the goal of every student in UPT should be: GET THOSE WINGS!

The airframe is "nice" but I'm a guy that's flown trainers, fighters, and tankers...and you know what?

There wasn't a mission I flew that was more important than the other one. EACH aircraft and mission has a role and none are unimportant. And they're ALL fun!!!

SO...get the wings...the airframe is a bonus!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Dkdarnoc,

Those were drops for Laughlin(XL), Vance and Columbus.

I agree with flieger the airframe is the bonus winging is the goal....unless you get FAIP at Laughlin :shake::eek::wink:
~ If you have been to Del Rio you'll understand.

The thing is after a grueling year of your life your perspective changes. You enter on Day 1 with dreams of a certain airframe. By winging those dreams have been replaced with just give me thos damn wings, and any airframe will be fine with me.

What I meant by pretty is not just the airframe, but also the % that were getting fighters (Fs) I know for our DS he told us the night before drop he didn't care at all what he got as long as it didn't start with an E. His fiance had said she didn't care if it had an E, she didn't want it to start with a T. his drop was just a few months ago were 22s and 16s. The 10s were not dropping a lot because of the fact that they were looking like becoming boneyard.
~ That plane has more lives than a cat.

UPT does not get any easier after phase 1 In our DSs class @25% were FEBd during the T1/38 phase, the same amount as the T6 phase.

Every class is unique when it comes to how many want heavies and how many want fighters. I also think that as they get closer to track night they become more realistic of which track they will go, almost as if they start weeding theirself into tracks. They basically, or at least our DSs class had a ballpark regarding the number going heavy vs fighter a month or so out.
~ In our DSs class there was 1 of the students that could have tracked fighters, but wanted the C130 (he was prior E, maintainer on the 130) The rest that went heavy would have gone heavy just from a pure rack and stack system.
~ There are years that many of the top grads want heavies. One reason is the fallacy that they will get hired faster by the airlines later on, key word is fallacy. Airlines like heavy pilots, but they also know that the fighter guys graduated at the top of their class, so they are desired by the airlines too.

Every drop will also be different. It is luck and timing regarding what is dropped and how many, which is out of the control of the student.
~The one thing I learned at DSs winging is the wings play a game of switch sometimes like the NFL draft. I.E. they know that nobody in their group asked for a 15, but they got one, and at another base they didn't get that so they will swap their 16 for the 15.

Good luck to your DS. If you have not read raimius's blog on the AFA forum. I would read it. It somewhere in the bowels over there (look around March). It is a very good read.
 
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WING WING WING WING.... that's the GOAL.

Both of my kids requested the heavies, and I think a huge part of that is that one was married shortly into UPT (with a baby due in the fall... fencersgrandbaby, class of 2036?), and the other (who married in July) has a wife who is also serving. Those circumstances affected their desires, but if you asked either young man, they would both say, their goal was not heavy, not fighter, not bomber... their goal was to WING!
 
I don't want to make this off topic too much but pima what are the C-146 and U-28 used for exactly? I googled them to see what they are but there isn't much about their mission that I could find. They are just classified at utility aircraft.
 
I believe and someone else can correct me, but those two planes are Special Ops. U28 is assigned to Hurlburt, which would support the belief that they are part of AFSOC. The 146 is stationed at Fairchild, which also supports the belief that they are a part of AFSOC.

The C stands for Cargo, which can include troops.
 
The U-28 and C-146 are AFSOC. U-28 is an ISR platform and the C-146 is being used kind of like a mini-MC-130.
 
I agree with flieger the airframe is the bonus winging is the goal....unless you get FAIP at Laughlin
~ If you have been to Del Rio you'll understand.
:biggrin:
Uh...yeah, I have to agree with Pima here..."Del Rio by the Sea" is...uh...well, a FAIP assignment there isn't the WORST job you could get with wings...I mean, you could be the only USAF pilot assigned to Diego Garcia as the token AF guy/gal...or you could be the ops commander at Shemya AB (in caretaker status) ensuring that the arctic foxes don't overrun the buildings...

Otherwise... :eek:

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
FAIP at Laughlin...

Yes, my son did ask me to 'PRAY MOM! PRAY! that I don't FAIP."

It is not exactly the garden spot of the universe (but I have lived in worse places than his duplex behind the Berlin Wall there).
 
Flieger,

I believe Bullet was once diverted to Shemya, and if my memory serves me correctly it was a double whammy BC he was on his way back from Kuang Ju after 4 months The misery just didn't seem to end for him on that TDY.
~~~ Off top, but the fox comment had me ROFLMAO. Bullet was flying one day, and during take off a new pilot calls the tower and tells them there are two foxes on the runway. SOF says see if they blink. This goes back and forth for a few minutes...yanking the pilots chain. Meanwhile everyone can hear this conversation and are LAO. The base to keep birds away had fake foxes set up on the runway and everyone was suppose to know that. I am betting he got a call sign revolving around this. He was a 15 guy.
The funny thing about my DIL was she didn't say her wish in total clarity....as long as it didn't start with a T. God thought she meant the airframe, but what she really meant was Texas! She is an NC girl, being landlocked at Abilene is scary to her :shake: Her very curly hair needs humidity.

Me OTOH would take Abilene over Goldsboro any day of the week, and twice on Sunday....I am a Jersey girl and need more than three main roads (2 lane) in town, and driving from one end to the other, including hitting every red light needs to take more than 10 minutes.

I have always said some bases stateside should be classified as a remote. Del Rio belongs in that classification.
~ What shocked me the most about Del Rio is there is nothing off base for shopping needs and their on base Commissary/BX is the smallest I have ever seen in my life. The BX is the size of our WaWas here.
~ OBTW the number 1 factor for classification of being a remote should be driving distance to a Target.:shake: Come on what town doesn't have a Target?

The other test would be how high is the pregnancy rate. Bullets FTU class at Mt. Home (hub of Elmore county, pop. 8000) had 8 married couples, only 1 was pregnant when the class started, by graduation only 1 was NOT pregnant. As wives we just figured what the heck we have nothing else to do, might as well have a baby to keep us busy!:shake:
~ I was one of them...that was after I got board building things at the wood shop and had framed everything possible in the house. I tried taking up golfing, but after I saw a snake on the course, I decided getting pregnant was more appealing to me than getting bitten by a snake.
 
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OK, I'll post in defense of the Dirty Del. Being from a small town in Wisconsin that has three bars and a convenience store, my son didn't think that Del Rio was bad at all. With both a Walmart and an HEB store, he could get everything he needed to survive. If he needed something a little more selective, they did the three hour trip to San Antonio once a month or so. I guess it depends on your frame of reference.

Fencer, I grinned at the reference to the Berlin Wall. Son lived on Yarborough St. in the regular housing and he said the best parties were always behind the Berlin Wall in the student duplexes.

Stealth_81
 
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