Pirates?

Interesting reading - re: guns on merchant ships

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/world/13shipping.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp

.....International rules pushed through by the United States after the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, authorized captains to monitor maritime security in their vicinity and maintain their vessels at elevated levels of vigilance in response to dangers. If that antiterrorism system were expanded to include piracy and ships were armed, Mr. Parker said, captains could be authorized to take greater measures. “The captain declares there’s some elevated level and they open up the gun locker,” he said.......

.....Most ports severely restrict vessels from having weapons on board, and changing those regulations in each country would be difficult, Mr. Flynn said. The United States Coast Guard has been especially wary, fearing that the weapons could be used for terrorist attacks. Because a commercial vessel might stop in a dozen countries during a voyage, it would be hard for it to carry weapons if any port along the route forbade that, Mr. Flynn said.................

http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2009/04/...-the-obvious-answer-that-may-be-simply-wrong/
 
It's a fun debate, and it should heat up...however, as has been said, there is no international law banning weapons on the merchant ships, there just isn't. Should they arm the crew? There are certainly good points to both sides. Should they provide armed security teams? Ups and downs to that too.

JAM, I'm not sure if your still looking for something to "prove" that weapons are illegal on merchant ships. I can tell you, you will find no international law banning it. You are welcome to consult your local/national maritime law enforcement experts, and that would be the U.S. Coast Guard.
 
Lineinthesand, I don't think Justamom or anyone else has ever stated that international law prohibits firearms on commercial ships. What has been a common thread throughout this incident is that many countries either A). Prohibit foreign ships entering their ports with firearms aboard, or, B). Require extra inspections for foreign commercial ships carrying firearms, such that the delay is economically unfeasible. Just because IMO doesn't prohibit it, doesn't mean shipping can violate local port laws. Neither would I expect my "local/national maritime law enforcement expert" to have the answers for each of the hundreds of countries which have ports. Should I decide to carry weapons in violation of local laws just because IMO doesn't forbid it, my "local/national maritime law enforcement expert" would be an international law attorney, not the USCG.

Again, from my previous post, we are caught up in inconsequential semantics. Obviously, some, probably including the USMMA Captain, feel that a local proclamation disallowing a foreign ship from entering their port armed falls under the purview of one of the many layers of international law. Obviously, Lineinthesand, you do not. It doesn't matter. The real questions are, are my statements A and/or B correct, and, if so, do they present such a burden that shipping companies have to blanketly prohibit firearms?

As a completely separate discussion, several 'expert' sources have discussed innocent passage. You have said they were wrong. Justamom has asked you to explain how they are wrong. Since it seems to be a common misconception and you are our "local/national maritime law enforcement expert", please tell us what it correct. Can innocent passage impact the firearm issues which we are discussing here?

In my limited offshore experience, consisting of a few trips to Bermuda and back, some solo, it never crossed my mind to carry a weapon. I guess, from the "local/national maritime law enforcement expert", I was stupid. They confiscate and store everything while one is there including spear guns and flare pistols so I didn't think it was worth the hassle.
 
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Lineinthesand, I don't think Justamom or anyone else has ever stated that international law prohibits firearms on commercial ships. What has been a common thread throughout this incident is that many countries either A). Prohibit foreign ships entering their ports with firearms aboard, or, B). Require extra inspections for foreign commercial ships carrying firearms, such that the delay is economically unfeasible. Just because IMO doesn't prohibit it, doesn't mean shipping can violate local port laws. Neither would I expect my "local/national maritime law enforcement expert" to have the answers for each of the hundreds of countries which have ports. Should I decide to carry weapons in violation of local laws just because IMO doesn't forbid it, my "local/national maritime law enforcement expert" would be an international law attorney, not the USCG.

Again, from my previous post, we are caught up in inconsequential semantics. Obviously, some, probably including the USMMA Captain, feel that a local proclamation disallowing a foreign ship from entering their port armed falls under the purview of one of the many layers of international law. Obviously, Lineinthesand, you do not. It doesn't matter. The real questions are, are my statements A and/or B correct, and, if so, do they present such a burden that shipping companies have to blanketly prohibit firearms?

As a completely separate discussion, several 'expert' sources have discussed innocent passage. You have said they were wrong. Justamom has asked you to explain how they are wrong. Since it seems to be a common misconception and you are our "local/national maritime law enforcement expert", please tell us what it correct. Can innocent passage impact the firearm issues which we are discussing here?

In my limited offshore experience, consisting of a few trips to Bermuda and back, some solo, it never crossed my mind to carry a weapon. I guess, from the "local/national maritime law enforcement expert", I was stupid. They confiscate and store everything while one is there including spear guns and flare pistols so I didn't think it was worth the hassle.

Check Post #33, that would suggest otherwise.

Wilbur you keep asking the same questions, and because of that, you will keep getting the same answers. You're "maritime law enforcement" experts are Coast Guardsmen, your "maritime law experts" are lawyers. And, no, the two are not completely the same. The Innocent Passage questions has already bean asked, and the presence of small arms on a ship wouldn't change it, as MANY ships have small arms aboard, private, commercial, fishing, etc. I think we've seen PLENTY of examples of people well higher and more experienced than the KP captain saying otherwise. Examples, the ADM Allen, USCG interview, or even yesterday's VADM, USN interview on CNN (I believe he was with 5th Fleet. I'll take the 7 Star total over the four stripes. The Navy's interview was midday. And yes, with a few crossings, I would call that very limited experience, but how dangerous are those waters?
 
In my limited offshore experience, consisting of a few trips to Bermuda and back, some solo, it never crossed my mind to carry a weapon. I guess, from the "local/national maritime law enforcement expert", I was stupid. They confiscate and store everything while one is there including spear guns and flare pistols so I didn't think it was worth the hassle.

Many victims also think that protecting themselves with a firearm isn't "worth the hassle."

That is, until the day comes when they need a firearm to save their life.
 
I think I have finally figured out your position. Adm Allen states that there is no effort in place to arm commercial ships. Therefore, the answer to my questions are moot. We aren't going to arm ships so we have no need to ask foreign ports to change their laws concerning the prohibition of guns on foreign commercial ships. I agree with Adm Allen, and I assume, also with you, totally.

Yes, the East Coast to Bermuda run is relatively safe and yes, Luigi, some people get killed because the effort to stay alive is not worth the hassle. I am getting ready to go sailing in the Caribbean. Infinitely more dangerous and infinitely more reasons not to carry a firearm. Many of the islands require prior approval. Others strictly prohibit any sort of weapon at all, permit or not. Sailors, as you know, don't always end up where they intended to go. I would hate for the possibility of a jail sentence in a third world rat hole to override prudent sailing decisions in the event of bad weather or an emergency. I suppose one could always throw it overboard. However, I am too cheap. And also, the result for the remainder of the cruise would be the same as not starting with one.
 
I think I have finally figured out your position. Adm Allen states that there is no effort in place to arm commercial ships. Therefore, the answer to my questions are moot. We aren't going to arm ships so we have no need to ask foreign ports to change their laws concerning the prohibition of guns on foreign commercial ships. I agree with Adm Allen, and I assume, also with you, totally.

Yes, the East Coast to Bermuda run is relatively safe and yes, Luigi, some people get killed because the effort to stay alive is not worth the hassle. I am getting ready to go sailing in the Caribbean. Infinitely more dangerous and infinitely more reasons not to carry a firearm. Many of the islands require prior approval. Others strictly prohibit any sort of weapon at all, permit or not. Sailors, as you know, don't always end up where they intended to go. I would hate for the possibility of a jail sentence in a third world rat hole to override prudent sailing decisions in the event of bad weather or an emergency. I suppose one could always throw it overboard. However, I am too cheap. And also, the result for the remainder of the cruise would be the same as not starting with one.



That is not what I got from the interview, nor did many I know. What I did get is that there are concerns from the private sector and insurance companies of arming crews. ADM Allen in the interview did not offer his opinion, but stated that he had talked to the private sector and there were real concerns. Never did he say that there was no interest. Obviously, if they're having those conversations, there is an interest, but does those interests overcome the concerns? Maybe not. The Navy VADM certainly wasn't against arming them.

Wilbur, I would check out the concept of "force majeure" in the case of an emergency. It should be a quick "google" for you.
 
"Wilbur, I would check out the concept of "force majeure" in the case of an emergency."

Again, definitions. My definition of an emergency as a conservative seaman whose idea of high winds and heavy seas might be 20 kts/5 feet is probably not the same as a Jamican, Dominican, or Mexican corrupt third world official intent on milking the "rich yanquee" for everything he is worth. When due process down there becomes a given I may change my mind. I am not so naive as to assume a rational decision with a local law enforcement official based totally on given facts

Luigi, it is risk analysis. Carry a gun and if by some very slim chance it is necessary to use it, run a 50/50 chance of escalating the incident such that I may cause myself bodily harm and also run the risk if I end up somewhere where guns are illegal, where the officials know a lot more hiding places than I do, have a 100% chance of ending up in jail. From all accounts some of the prisons down there do more long term bodily harm than a sucking chest wound. Yes, it might not be "worth the hassle". Maybe I should have added "possible" to the hassle.

Hey, this is kinda approaching the argument that we are having about firearms and commercial shipping, huh?
 
I'm kind of missing the discussion then Wilbur, what exactly would you like to happen? It seems that you are arguing for arguements sake. Are you saying "no guns" "why guns" "why no guns"...
:confused:
 
Actually, I am just attempting to get a clearer picture of all the issues, from both sides of the coin. There are owner issues, union issues, international law issues, psychology of dealing with pirate issues, etc, etc. The one issue which a lot of expert "sources" have alluded to is that in some foreign ports, it is either illegal to enter the port with firearms or a major time delay in getting them declared that ships do not carry them. Is this a real issue or simply a red herring? What percentage of the ports have these restrictions? Could ships check out a "gun locker" for some trips and turn it in for others? I would say that if out of the hundreds of ports only a few do not allow firearms, it might not be an issue. However, if of that same hundreds of ports, all but a few prohibited weapons, the entire issue of arming a crew would be a mute point.

My corollary sailing comments were in direct response to your comment that I was ignorant and had no idea of the dangers of the sea. I was just relating my personal opinions, which is probably that I might consider firearms for Bermuda, where, you agree, they are probably not necessary, but would definitely not consider them in the Caribbean where there is a much greater likelihood that they might be useful but the price might be to rot in a hellhole prison. Actually, just thinking out loud to continue a stimulating discussion.
 
Right, there was just an article last month about a killing in the Caribbean. While I don't think guns are needed everywhere, especially around the United States, that does not mean you won't find them. It also doesn't mean we don't expect to find them. We understand, now, that international law is not the issue. And I think it's been clear that the main people that need to be concerned about this are merchant/private ships around Somalia and those near the Staits of Malacca.
 
The presents of “small arms” on a merchant vessel are legal and they do not negate the “right of innocent passage”

What will jeopardize a vessel’s “right of innocent passage” are any of the following actions..

1. Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State. Such passage shall take place in conformity with this Convention and with other rules of international law.
2. Passage of a foreign ship shall be considered to be prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State if in the territorial sea it engages in any of the following activities:
(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;
(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;
(c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defense or security of the coastal State;
(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defense or security of the coastal State;
(e) the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft;
(f) the launching, landing or taking on board of any military device;
(g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal State;
(h) any act of willful and serious pollution contrary to this Convention;
(i) any fishing activities;
(j) the carrying out of research or survey activities;
(k) any act aimed at interfering with any systems of communication or any other facilities or installations of the coastal State;
(l) any other activity not having a direct bearing on passage.

For 19 years I have sailed as a Master on U.S. Flag merchant ships. Most of that time I didn’t carry a weapon on board and I would prefer continuing not to. The presents of weapons on board creates, among other things, additional problems for the master with customs officials in foreign ports.

There can be a reciprocity issue here too. If we have armed U.S. vessels (beyond having a 9MM in the ships safe) entering foreign ports, will the U.S. allow the same for foreign vessel? Is DHS/USCG comfortable reciprocating and letting that armed Liberian ship with a Pakistani crew into our ports? Maybe yes, but probably not without a thorough inspection, on arrival AND departure to account for those arms and insure they’re locked in a sealed and secured space.. In foreign ports U.S. ships will also be subjected to those same, probably time consuming, inspections. It’s all quid pro quo. Any additional inspections of arms and ammunition will likely delay inward clearance, commencement of cargo operations and the eventual issuance of a clearance to sail.

Also, as was alluded to in earlier posts “small arms” are of little deterrence against determined pirates or terrorist that would in all probability be more HEAVILY armed. Getting “bigger guns” isn’t the answer either. I don’t want to start “ratcheting up” and get into an “arms race” with the bad guys to protect my ship and crew.. especially in view of the fact that most merchant mariners have little if any weapons or tactical training.

Given the growing threat of piracy and terrorism at sea, I think the U.S. Navy needs to step up it’s efforts to provide the necessary protection for U.S. flag shipping and guarantee our freedom of movement on the high seas..
To those that say the U.S. Navy is hard pressed to provide that necessary protection because the vast areas that sometimes need to be covered.. I say the mission of the Navy is clear and unequivocal. It is, in part, “to defend the right of the United States and our allies to move freely on the oceans”. By law that is what they are tasked to do. I have yet to see an asterisk in the mission statement that refers to footnotes..

*except in cases where the area of the ocean is more than twice the area of the state of Texas
or
*except where it’s too difficult due to limited assets

Understand, I am NOT being critical of the Navy. In the MAERSK ALABAMA incident the Navy performed admirably and with great skill and courage in freeing a fellow shipmaster. As brave as Captain Phillips and crew of MAERSK ALABAMA acted, it was the U.S. Navy, with better resources and training that ultimately insured the positive outcome.

Let’s make sure the Navy has the necessary “mission” support to do what they do best, so we in the U.S. Merchant Fleet can do what we do best..

My first 3rd Mates job was on the SeaLand containership SS MAYAGUEZ. A year before I joined the ship she was seized by armed Khmer Rouge in the Gulf of Siam. The ship was unarmed at the time. The Navy responded swiftly with force and the Cambodians were “compelled” to return the ship and crew after they had held them for four days. When I came aboard a year later nothing had been done since the seizure to arm the ship. We continued as before, unarmed, plying the same trade route sometimes less than 20 miles from the “killing fields” of Pol Pot’s Cambodia. Despite that, the Captain and the rest of us in the crew felt fairly comfortable and safe going about our business knowing the "cavalry" was not far over the horizon at Naval Station Subic Bay and Cubi Point NAS in the Philippines and patrolling the nearby waters of the South China Sea.

I'm sure Pol and his boys in Phnom Penh had a pretty good idea where that "cavalry" was too :wink:

For a little historical perspective on current events in the IO see the link below..

http://www.usmm.org/mayaguez.html
 
you're quite welcome LITS.. :smile:
 
FYI - the Marines killed on Kaoh Tang Island were the last official casualties of the Vietnam War
 
deepdraft1 - thanks for coming aboard and offering up that very thorough explanation.
Your knowledge and expertise is appreciated by this landlubber in trying to understand a complex situation.
Thanks as well for that piece of history.
 
Ditto. Thanks, deepdraft. I like it. Insist that the Navy do the job for which they were created.

One question please. ALL the news sources said this was the first act of piracy against a US vessel since the early 1800s. Lineinthesand alluded to, but was unable to provide examples of others. Was the SS Mayaguez an act of war or an act of piracy? Your link stated that President Ford declared it an act of piracy.
 
I guess they just needed the info to come from someone else to believe it. I'm ok with that.
 
An interesting side story is that the USS Bainbridge, involved in this incident, was named after Captain William Bainbridge who, as captain of the USS Philadelphia, ran her aground during the war against Tripoli. He and his crew were taken prisoner for 19 months. The Philadelphia subsequently freed herself, was captured and rearmed by the pirates (Bainbridge had thrown all the cannons overboard in an attempt to lighten the ship). The ship's subsequent destruction by the US Navy sounds like a SEAL team mission precursor:

http://www.mariner.org/usnavy/06/06a.htm
 
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