Plan b college is angry

Many kids last minute change their mind and change schools. Athletes de-commit. What is the difference? The SA gave him a better packaged to attend their school. What a sorry sap he is for contacting your DS and school about this. I wouldn't worry one more minute about it.
 
My DD's Plan "B" university sent it back. I thought , since it was my only experience, that it's the norm. I do not see any harm in asking.
 
I know I am not going to win over any fans in regards to this issue. But, students are told they are not to accept admissions to more than 1 school after May 1st, which is why there is a deadline to make a final decision. It is considered unethical and the College Board has comments about this on their website. Let call this for what this is - most every parent here knows double-acceptance is not allowed, which is why this is done on the sly. Most just choose to ignore the ethics of the issue, and hope it doesn't become a problem if the back up plan is needed. Now, with that being said, I personally feel that candidates who have been selected to a service academy SHOULD have special provisions that allow them to do so, because of the unique nature of the physical requirements during the summer basic training. A serious injury can keep a candidate out of the "freshman" class. I have shared before that our school counselor would refuse to release the final transcript to more than one college, thus nullifying the admissions to more than one college, because of the ethics of the issue. The only way that she would allow for it, was for my son to get approval from both the "plan B" school and USMA approving our son to do so, with each of them understanding that there would be a double acceptance. We were grateful that both schools agreed to this. I would bet than a college that is "burned" by a student, would think twice about admitting other kids from the high school that allowed the double deposit. Some people here might say, "Not my problem; my kid had the insurance he needed in case something went wrong." Even ROTC Scholarships are nullified once a candidate shows up to an academy, so if they are hurt or change their mind after showing up, then no longer have that back up. In the end, can any school really do anything to you if there is a double deposit - No. We all talk about the character we are instilling in our future leaders, so why are parents not showing the same? Just some food for thought.
 
USMAROTCFamily said:
I know I am not going to win over any fans in regards to this issue. But, students are told they are not to accept admissions to more than 1 school after May 1st, which is why there is a deadline to make a final decision. It is considered unethical and the College Board has comments about this on their website. Let call this for what this is - most every parent here knows double-acceptance is not allowed, which is why this is done on the sly. Most just choose to ignore the ethics of the issue, and hope it doesn't become a problem if the back up plan is needed. Now, with that being said, I personally feel that candidates who have been selected to a service academy SHOULD have special provisions that allow them to do so, because of the unique nature of the physical requirements during the summer basic training. A serious injury can keep a candidate out of the "freshman" class. I have shared before that our school counselor would refuse to release the final transcript to more than one college, thus nullifying the admissions to more than one college, because of the ethics of the issue. The only way that she would allow for it, was for my son to get approval from both the "plan B" school and USMA approving our son to do so, with each of them understanding that there would be a double acceptance. We were grateful that both schools agreed to this. I would bet than a college that is "burned" by a student, would think twice about admitting other kids from the high school that allowed the double deposit. Some people here might say, "Not my problem; my kid had the insurance he needed in case something went wrong." Even ROTC Scholarships are nullified once a candidate shows up to an academy, so if they are hurt or change their mind after showing up, then no longer have that back up. In the end, can any school really do anything to you if there is a double deposit - No. We all talk about the character we are instilling in our future leaders, so why are parents not showing the same? Just some food for thought.
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Not sure I see a character issue here. Colleges want to make money. They want your money. You're not hostage to their timeline regarding an issue that intimately affects your future (not theirs).
 
school counselor needs to do their job and send out the transcripts. If there was some legal recourse, the Plan B schools would be taking it. If the counselor feels so inclined to limit the opportunities of a student, they should step up and guarantee that one opportunity will come to fruition.

We all know it doesn't work that way.
 
Give this astoundingly petty sap the supe’s phone number. I’m sure he would be fascinated to hear this story!

Your kid got the golden ticket. Let the chips fall where they may. We’re going to discuss character here? Admissions guy is showing his character well.
 
Your SA is NOT your typical college and the application process takes longer due to a number of requirements you won't find at civilian universities. There is nothing wrong in having a plan B since you might have to wait longer to find if you are 3Q, have a NOM, perhaps need some medical waivers, are on their wiat list.........etc. and therefore be offered an appointment. Most civilian universities will be very accommodating if you explain the reason it takes longer to make a decision. At most you might lose your deposit, but any college that tries to bully/badger applicants into accepting an offer isn't a place worth attending.
 
Considering most, if not all "regular" colleges require acceptance/commitment/enrollment fee paid by 1 May, and the service academies' "Day 1" is not until 29 - 30 June, I fail to see an ethical issue especially if you have been in contact with the Plan B school and explained the situation. A lot can happen in the 60 days prior to entering the Academy, especially if your DD/DS refuses to wear their bubble-wrap suit;). And, if scholarships are on the line at the Plan B school and you do not "commit" by their 1 May deadline, these will be lost, which can add up to a considerable amount of money, if your DD/DS ends up attending the Plan B school for whatever reason.

DD and I coordinated with her Plan B school, before paying the enrollment fee and signing up for an orientation date, which we intentionally set for mid-August so it was after BCT and before Plan B classes began. The nice ladies we spoke with understood and just asked that DD send them an email as soon as she knew she would be continuing at USAFA versus coming to the Plan B school. We spoke with the college's "office of first experience" versus admissions when doing so. This did not seem like it was anything new or unusual to them and wished DD success whether she attended their school or not.

As USMAROTCFamily mentioned, even ROTC scholarships are not nullified until the student enters the SA. The ROTC scholarship is not nullified just because the person received and accepted an appointment to the SA.

Open lines of communication with all concerned is usually the best policy in any situation.

Although, in some cases, you will come across some people who should be working for the IRS collection department versus college admissions.
 
I agree that colleges do their drop date of May 1 or the 15th for the deposit. However, I still throw up the BS flag! I stated this before...show me a college that does not have a waitlist!

Now, if you agree they have waitlists and call some of these kids in June/July/Aug. to say a spot has opened up would you like to take it, than impo it is the pot calling the kettle black.
~ Think about it...they are now pilfering from another school where this kid paid the deposit....heck, may have even attended orientation in June.

SAs are Ivy league colleges. I live in VA. UVA is considered a public Ivy, always number 1-5 in the nation. Many of their students will apply to HYPPSM and get waitlisted. Do you think that if Harvard called them 1 week to move in date and financially it was the same cost that they wouldn't bolt to Harvard? Now do the domino effect. That kid bolts, which means UVA has an opening. In VA, as a ROTC cadet they probably applied to VT. Now they call that VT kid, and they bolt to UVA. SO on and SO forth.

This idea that these colleges believe that everyone only paying one deposit or will show up to collect their dorm key is like me believing that when I asked my kids when they were 6 did they wash their hands before coming to the dinner table and they said yes, while I saw their dirty finger nails! They know it, and they expect it!

OBTW, think about this in a different way. Colleges now are insanely expensive due to bloat because they are playing the keeping up with the Joneses from a recruiting aspect for college kids.
~Those pretty rock climbing walls = more employees at a Gym where the avg Joe could not afford to join. Outdoor pools with sun decks?!?! Gone are the days of dorm living is 2 to a room and communal living space and showers. Now it is suite living where OMG 4 of you share a bathroom, or you can pay extra for a single dorm room.
~ As a parent, do you not remember our dining meals, one step above HS cafeteria food, with limited dining hour times? Look at your kids meal plans. 24/7 with options like steak or sushi.

Also, for the OP or any parent that has ever been threatened like this...google their endowment fund. If they said this to me, I would say let me get this right, you have an endowment fund of 250 million invested somewhere collecting 3-5% interest to increase your pockets while you increase the cost by 10% annum, even though COLA is 1%, huge amount of money in their pockets when you place that altogether.
~ My kid was going to pay zip ( most SA cadets get college merit scholarship, ROTC scholarship and take out FAFSA), It is a non-refundable fee of 250-500 and now you are going after me for him not showing up in Aug? Money you get to put back in your pocket with no harm or no foul. Actually they should love an SA kid, because most of them have merit from the school. They just got to keep that deposit and throw back their college merit into their FA pool for other students.

Do I believe you should talk to them about this in Apr. ? Yes. Do I believe that it is morally wrong to place the deposit as plan B for these kids? No!

Remove the SA plan B factor, because honestly, these kids will take more than a hit financially on I Day if they do not complete BCT. The scholarship is gone. They may have a medical issue where they cannot enroll in ROTC. That deposit saved them a spot, but they will miss orientation (scheduling freshmen classes) and dorm choices. They are just going to be happy to live in a triple dorm that was designated a double and their class schedule will be all over the place.

Glass house here when you discuss that deposit date. If MIT comes knocking at your door in Aug. and you placed a deposit with USC would you have your child jump to MIT? Or are you going to say to your child that morally/ethically you owe it to USC to stay with them because you paid the deposit? To me that is what this is all about. That and the fact that MIT will find someone off their waitlist that will jump, and they are keeping that deposit.

JMPO, but if you think colleges are about academia only and not a business, than I have a piece of land in Florida to sell you for your next home. Trust me, it is a little wet, some call it swampy, but with enough truck loads of dirt we can fill it and it will be fine. That is what they are doing.
~ Disagree with me...google your school endowment....Harvard 38 BILLION. MIT 14 BILLION. USC 4.7 BILLION. UCLA 3.5 BILLION. UPENN 10 BILLION. Notre Dame 10 Billion. UVA 7.5 BILLION. UNC 2.9 BILLION. Penn State 3.6 BILLION. I can go on and on and on, but you get the gist. They don't need your deposit money, nor will they be going under if that waitlisted kid shows up, because now that merit money for your kid will not be used for the waitlisted kid, thus they keep it and gain interest until spring semester..
 
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No one on this board knows what would happen, unless they are part of USMA admissions - and no one has copped to that. After going through the effort of qualifying, appointing, and getting a candidate into Beast, it is unlikely (but not impossible) that academy admissions would pay attention to complaints from the Plan B college. Hopefully the response would be a polite version of "sorry, not my problem."

In this case, the director of Plan B may have been intimidated at the prospect of "calling the Army", instead of his squash buddy over at college X. Count that as a bullet dodged. (Or maybe he got voicemail so many times he gave up. ;))

Service Academy admissions are not a part of the incestuous clique of college admissions officers and high school counselors that control student behavior. Many belong to a professional organization that requires their cooperation in this situation. It is how they maintain their power over students. A private business would be indicted for unfair business practices for similar actions. Colleges may revoke an offer of admission just to set an example for future applicants, but the appropriate amount of grovelling on the part of the family and high school counselor should avoid that.
 
Different perspective, but it has happened at USCGA that appointments were given the week or even days before R-Day due to a dropout. I'm assuming other SA's have had that situation as well. Plan B school then had an opening.
 
Mom22 said:
...........He even called the high school. He sent my son a harsh email and said the matter is closed.
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How ridiculous does that make this college appear? Calling the h.s. where your son has already graduated seems futile and not likely to win any fans at the h.s. for other students thinking about applying to that college. "Harshly" worded emails can be easily deleted, most would refer to these as 'junk mail'. If he says the matter is closed, I would move on and just forget about it.

Even at the SA's, if you accept your appointment you may still change your mind and not show up and no one will come knocking at your door looking for the applicant.
 
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I know I am usually the lone voice dissenting to about Plan B deposit , but without any dissension there is nothing for candidates and parents to consider.

A lesson I learned from West Point was to not ask is it legal or illegal or against the regulation or not first, but ask is it right or wrong before making a decision. Perhaps, it's a reflection of our society when a Presidential candidate's line is something like "I didn't do anything illegal . . .."

As other folks pointed about and defended, nothing illegal about putting a deposit down and not attending a college. I know I am over thinking it, but to me the deposit represents that person's commitment to attend the college. At what point does it become unacceptable making deposits as an insurance policy. If one school is okay, why not two or three more if the candidate cannot make up his or her mind, can afford it, or the school is willing to refund the deposit?

Before discussing in detail what a deposit is not, one should consider what the deposit is for.

I know we don't read things we sign anymore, but is there something student/parent sign when they send in the deposit? If so, what's in the paperwork?

If I was a school pissed off about an applicant making a deposit and not coming AND the deposit agreement included some language about making a commitment to attend my school, I will send the copy of such deposit agreement to West Point attesting to the moral character of the applicant.
 
MemberLG said:
I know I am usually the lone voice dissenting to about Plan B deposit , but without any dissension there is nothing for candidates and parents to consider.

A lesson I learned from West Point was to not ask is it legal or illegal or against the regulation or not first, but ask is it right or wrong before making a decision. Perhaps, it's a reflection of our society when a Presidential candidate's line is something like "I didn't do anything illegal . . .."

As other folks pointed about and defended, nothing illegal about putting a deposit down and not attending a college. I know I am over thinking it, but to me the deposit represents that person's commitment to attend the college. At what point does it become unacceptable making deposits as an insurance policy. If one school is okay, why not two or three more if the candidate cannot make up his or her mind, can afford it, or the school is willing to refund the deposit?

Before discussing in detail what a deposit is not, one should consider what the deposit is for.

I know we don't read things we sign anymore, but is there something student/parent sign when they send in the deposit? If so, what's in the paperwork?

If I was a school pissed off about an applicant making a deposit and not coming AND the deposit agreement included some language about making a commitment to attend my school, I will send the copy of such deposit agreement to West Point attesting to the moral character of the applicant.
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I respect your voice of dissent, LG and you are a valued contributor to the forum, but I respectfully disagree.

It is indeed the real world where:
  • Real estate deposits are walked away from because a better property becomes available.
  • Deposits for a vacation are forfeited because a relative becomes ill.
  • A down payment on a car is lost because the buyer cannot raise the balance.
In my opinion, none of these cases represents immoral behavior. They may be "bad business" practices, but are only immoral, if there is intent to defraud or to deceive.

In 2015, my DS placed a deposit on a SMC which accepted him to hold his spot, but ultimately received a better financial aid opportunity at his current college. The SMC promptly and courteously refunded his deposit....no questions asked.

Just my dos centavos.
 
Agreed. A college deposit secures a business relationship only, and is not (itself) a binding contract. You can treat it like it represents your moral and ethical standing, and no doubt some people do, but you will then be treating it differently than colleges do. It is only and exactly like a deposit for a new home or a new car, as @AROTC-dad said.
 
There is nothing unethical about placing a deposit and then exercising your option to cancel if a better offer comes along. It is part of the contract and colleges don't hold it against the student. There is no double commitment. The student is only under deposit at one college at a time.

Having deposits at two civilian colleges at the same time is unethical and in clear violation of the contract, which prohibits double commitment. The argument that colleges plan for this through wait lists and therefore no one is hurt is a false argument. The college is not hurt. The student that did not get the offer early in the process because of the double acceptance is the one screwed.
  • In most cases, wait lists are not managed in order of merit (most colleges, including USMA, explicitly state this). The student not taken from the wait list in May/June because of the double deposit will not necessarily be chosen in July/August. Financial aid may no longer be available or the college's priorities may have shifted leading to the student not getting an offer.
  • The student may also be so financially and emotionally tied to the 2nd choice by that time that they decline a wait list offer from the 1st choice.
Service Academies are a special situation - although it still violates the contract with the backup school to maintain that deposit. The intention is not to take unfair advantage of the system, but to prevent being the one who is screwed come September. Having a deposit at a civilian college until beast is over straddles the ethical line, but can be justified.
 
^^ditto

I personally could not in good conscience turn in /send in a complaint to a SA because a potential student chose to attend their institution. Especially if the potential student did not request a refund. It happens all the time with their regular students. Should the service academies start contacting the colleges of all the no shows at R, I and S day?

I will take it further to say I would question the persons ethics and professionalism for passing judgement and trying to tarnish a "kids" character and damage their future. These kids represent less 10% of Americans who are voluntarily willingly choose to serve their country at the end of the day. Really how low does someone want to go? I know I am preaching to the choir here, but any school who gets their nose in a crook over a change in decision to attend their college really need to go back and look at their numbers of the regular students who don't show up. Every year they have athletes who decomit. These athletes actually have a Signed NLI....What happens to them? meh...they lose a year of eligible play..that's it. I am pretty sure IF they have an academic scholarship at the new school they will still be able to keep it.

IMO it's case of sour grapes.
 
AROTC-dad said:
I respect your voice of dissent, LG and you are a valued contributor to the forum...
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+1 and I've read LG's posts for many years.

MemberLG said:
Before discussing in detail what a deposit is not, one should consider what the deposit is for.
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The deposit is a place holder. Nothing more nothing less. Unlike an "Early Admission", there is no personal pledge to attend, implied or otherwise. Maybe they return the deposit, maybe they don't. It is not unlike accepting an xROTC scholarship while waiting for an LOA to an SA.

DS #2 received 4yr NROTC scholarship to dream school U Mich where he was accepted. Also accepted to local BIG 10 U with a full ride (tuition, books, room and board). U Mich OOS cost of attendance was out of the question when stacked up against free. He got whacked in the eye playing soccer in gym class (he is perfectly fine now) requiring a DoDMERB waiver.

As the deadline approached at the local U, DS called and explained the situation: U Mich was his dream school and the NROTC scholarship was his only ticket to attend. Could they please extend the deadline until DoDMERB made a decision? The answer was, "Yes, just please let us know". Ultimately, he did not receive the waiver, he attended the local school knowing that they didn't just want him, but they wanted what he felt was best for him.

LG, your desire to simply do the right thing is the right way to be. Unfortunately, most university admissions do not operate by the same code. They will do anything to meet their deliberately opaque goals. I would compare them to Middle Eastern rug merchants, but that would be unfair to Middle Eastern rug merchants.
 
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