Pledge of Allegiance Banned...

[Christcorp]

fly boy. I don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest, or similar, but we are responding to 2 quotes you made that sound contrary to the last post you just made. You said in both of those, basically, if you are in this country, and especially if you're a citizen, and you love this country, then you shouldn't have any problem pledging allegiance to the country and the flag. That's what you said, and that's what the most recent 3 replies are referencing.

In your last post, you said that a person shouldn't have to prove their love for their country by saying a pledge. "That is the RIGHT answer". This should be left right there. If a person says a pledge or doesn't say a pledge, there is no significance on their love for this country. Just leave it at that. Let it drop.

We all agree, and this is the ONLY important thing; that if a person(s) WANT to say the pledge of allegiance, that they SHOULDN'T BE DENIED that right. And if there are some there that DON'T WANT to say the pledge, they can respectfully just stand there for 10 seconds. That's how our national anthem is handled at events. If you want to sing, put your hand over your heart, etc... then you get to. If you don't want to, then you stand there respectfully. I'm not Jewish, however, I've been to jewish services. Out of respect, if they stood up, I stood up. Same thing here.

But your "passion" was quite high on the first page. The pledge of allegiance is obviously important to "YOU", that's good. For what it's worth, it's important to me too. But it's also important to me that the person who for WHATEVER REASON doesn't want to say it, that they shouldn't have to. AND, most importantly, they shouldn't be ridiculed or made to feel like they are "Un-American". That TOO is wrong. In my other example, if when that woman told me I was killing women and children, had another person told her to shut the hell up,,,, I would have told that person that THEY WERE WRONG. That woman has every right to feel the way she does, and to express it. Was she being considerate of my position, the oath I took, the circumstances I might have been in? No, she wasn't. But that doesn't take her rights away. So, people don't need to be told to move out of the country, and as you said, they don't have to PROVE they love this country by saying a pledge. But you passion on the first page was pretty convincing that if a person "Really did love this country" that they wouldn't have any problem saying a pledge of allegiance. I think we can drop that part and agree that those in the school should be allowed to say it if they want to.

 

[LineInTheSand]

No, it's perfectly okay for you to express your opinion. Stating that I think your opinion is stupid, misguided, and contrary to American principles does not actually constitute censorship.

I think your opinion is stupid.

 

[fly boy]

fly boy. I don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest, or similar, but we are responding to 2 quotes you made that sound contrary to the last post you just made. You said in both of those, basically, if you are in this country, and especially if you're a citizen, and you love this country, then you shouldn't have any problem pledging allegiance to the country and the flag. That's what you said, and that's what the most recent 3 replies are referencing.

In your last post, you said that a person shouldn't have to prove their love for their country by saying a pledge. "That is the RIGHT answer". This should be left right there. If a person says a pledge or doesn't say a pledge, there is no significance on their love for this country. Just leave it at that. Let it drop.

I wouldn't quite say that it was contrary. I'm saying that saying the pledge does not prove one's allegiance, but that if you do love the country, there should be no problem with saying it. NOT that it proves anything, but that's how it should be if you love the country. I'm also not saying that saying the pledge is the only way to prove one's allegience, but that it CAN BE a sign of it.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I wouldn't quite say that it was contrary. I'm saying that saying the pledge does not prove one's allegiance, but that if you do love the country, there should be no problem with saying it. NOT that it proves anything, but that's how it should be if you love the country. I'm also not saying that saying the pledge is the only way to prove one's allegience, but that it CAN BE a sign of it.

Would you say refusing to say the Pledge would be a sign of not allying with it?

 

[Christcorp]

Excellent point LITS. Flyboy, you're definitely allowed your opinion. But you've made it quite clear that you think "Less" of a person who is in the country, and especially a citizen, if they don't/won't say the pledge of allegiance. And I personally think that's wrong. I had a minister once who told me too his face that he "Questioned my salvation", basically because on Wednesday Evenings, I wouldn't walk around the neighborhood and hand out those cartoon pamphlets. Well, I'm sure that based on my posts, that you can guess what I told him I thought of him, his church, and his salvation.

So, are you basically saying that you "Question" a person's love and loyalty of the United States because they don't say the pledge of allegiance. If you're saying the pledge, simply so you can "SHOW" those around you that love your country, then you're doing it for the wrong reason. And maybe that's why some people don't say it. Just like christmas has lost it's meaning and has become commercialized, maybe they believe that most people who say the pledge have simply memorized a mantra and that it's lost it's meaning; and they don't want to be involved with perpetuating the same fallacy.

Sorry, but your posts are contradicting each other. You admit that saying it doesn't prove your patriotism, therefor, not saying it doesn't prove your disloyalty. Yet, you say a person who does love this country and is loyal should have no problem saying the pledge. That contradicts what you just said.

Anyway, this is the last post I will make on this thread. Feel free to continue on. I won't question any further posts. I know when it's time to move on. I can see that you really do love and appreciate this country. That's fantastic. But in time, you will realize that when you take the other to protect and defend the constitution, that means that you EQUALLY protect the rights of people to exercise their rights the way they see fit, even if you don't necessarily agree with it.

 

[OBXmom]

I am humbled by the purity with which you defend our rights. I am not so pure of heart, and hopefully your words will ring in my heart when I am tempted to judge other's patriotism. (I mean that very seriously, you have given me much to think about.)

Until that time, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for defending my right to give the mom-death stare and earlobe twist to anyone within my reach who is not showing proper respect during the playing of our national anthem or the recitation of the pledge.

 

[fly boy]

Excellent point LITS. Flyboy, you're definitely allowed your opinion. But you've made it quite clear that you think "Less" of a person who is in the country, and especially a citizen, if they don't/won't say the pledge of allegiance. And I personally think that's wrong. I had a minister once who told me too his face that he "Questioned my salvation", basically because on Wednesday Evenings, I wouldn't walk around the neighborhood and hand out those cartoon pamphlets. Well, I'm sure that based on my posts, that you can guess what I told him I thought of him, his church, and his salvation.

So, are you basically saying that you "Question" a person's love and loyalty of the United States because they don't say the pledge of allegiance. If you're saying the pledge, simply so you can "SHOW" those around you that love your country, then you're doing it for the wrong reason. And maybe that's why some people don't say it. Just like christmas has lost it's meaning and has become commercialized, maybe they believe that most people who say the pledge have simply memorized a mantra and that it's lost it's meaning; and they don't want to be involved with perpetuating the same fallacy.

Sorry, but your posts are contradicting each other. You admit that saying it doesn't prove your patriotism, therefor, not saying it doesn't prove your disloyalty. Yet, you say a person who does love this country and is loyal should have no problem saying the pledge. That contradicts what you just said.

Anyway, this is the last post I will make on this thread. Feel free to continue on. I won't question any further posts. I know when it's time to move on. I can see that you really do love and appreciate this country. That's fantastic. But in time, you will realize that when you take the other to protect and defend the constitution, that means that you EQUALLY protect the rights of people to exercise their rights the way they see fit, even if you don't necessarily agree with it.

I still don't see how it contradicts, but anyway, we all have our opinions, and I don't think any of us will change each others'. Thanks for the thread, though. It was fun.

 

[fly boy]

I am humbled by the purity with which you defend our rights. I am not so pure of heart, and hopefully your words will ring in my heart when I am tempted to judge other's patriotism. (I mean that very seriously, you have given me much to think about.)

Until that time, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for defending my right to give the mom-death stare and earlobe twist to anyone within my reach who is not showing proper respect during the playing of our national anthem or the recitation of the pledge.

Hahaha. Good one, OBXmom

 

[Maximus]

These are jokes right? Or did freedom of expression cease to be a hallmark of American values? Is it suddenly freedom of expression as long as you love everything about America and never saying anything bad? You've got to be kidding me.

Fabian Socialism.

 

[Maximus]

I send this from another country that I shall tell you a bit about.

It required an oath stating loyalty.
Citizens were required to announce a creed of patriotism.

It's Germany. This was 1939.

While I know some posts will start screaming at me for comparing USA to Nazi Germany, I'll give this to those who've read this far at least.

Patriotism, love of country, etc. does not come from saying a statement of allegiance or requiring it in a classroom. I agree, if they want to do it, let them. Don't ban it. But those who are stating that people should say it if they are a real citizen, or things like love america or get out -- honestly?

Love of country or values is represented in as many ways as there are people. Please be careful about these types of assumptions, they are insulting to many amazing people in our country who choose not to pledge or have chosen other avenues of love.

All due respect hornetguy but you should have been around here a few years ago when this really made a difference in our hearts. You are young so you get a pass.

 

[C/ 2nd Lt. McKnight]

It's funny. I was reading this this morning. And then I came upon today's "Baldo" comic strip in the Sunday paper. Made me think of the conversation here kind of...

http://www.gocomics.com/baldo/

 

[SteveHolt243]

Fabian Socialism.

Yah... I'm going to need you to explain what any of this has to do with the slow encroachment of socialism....

 

[Maximus]

Yah... I'm going to need you to explain what any of this has to do with the slow encroachment of socialism....

Oh I'm sure you got my reference but for the rest of the class: slowly tearing away the institutions and traditions that made this Country great in the name of fairness...lol

 

[SteveHolt243]

See when I think of what makes us great, I think of the recognition of inherent human rights such as freedom of speech. Also the ability to actually exercise such a freedom. Incidentally, a much longer standing tradition than the Pledge.

If you want to say the Pledge, go right ahead, I'll be there doing it as well. Mandating an expression of allegiance as a requirement for residence, however, is completely wrong.

 

[Maximus]

See when I think of what makes us great, I think of the recognition of inherent human rights such as freedom of speech. Also the ability to actually exercise such a freedom. Incidentally, a much longer standing tradition than the Pledge.

If you want to say the Pledge, go right ahead, I'll be there doing it as well. Mandating an expression of allegiance as a requirement for residence, however, is completely wrong.

Who said any students there were being forced to recite the pledge?
It's the opposite, they are *not* allowed to recite the pledge.

Just 3 seconds research on the Principal, the school and the silly Library 2009-2010 acquisitions list show the direction of this game.

http://www.arlington.k12.ma.us/ahs/mediacenter/documents/newbooks.pdf

LoL! Emma Goldman's book from the '20's yeah, they're not Fabian Socialist's at that school lol
The list reads as Al Gores must say you read (even though I'm sure old lecherous Al didn't even read anything he praised on Socialism)

Check out "How to Watch TV News" lol...please

 

[SteveHolt243]

I was commenting on the earlier thread comments that we should mandate everyone say the pledge, not the school's actions. Which if you read any of my posts, you would probably understand I am opposed to. The school shouldn't restrict voluntary recitation. That being said, with "3 seconds' research," the story doesn't seem to be that the school prevented Harrington from saying the pledge, but rather that they chose not to have "voluntary" participation during loudspeaker broadcast Pledges during class time. So tell the teen to get there five minutes early or during a break and express patriotism to his heart's content.

 

[The OC Josh]

the story doesn't seem to be that the school prevented Harrington from saying the pledge, but rather that they chose not to have "voluntary" participation during loudspeaker broadcast Pledges during class time.

I believe the quote from the article was the school will not allow Harrington to say the pledge.

I agree that no one should be forced to say the pledge or thought less of for not saying the pledge. However, everyone should be given the opportunity. And the lack of the opportunity presented by the school is the main problem I see.

 

[Christcorp]

I said I wasn't going to respond to this thread any further, but it seems to have evolved into a sidebar that is definitely significant in mentioning and possibly discussing. It's early, I just woke up, nothing planned until later, so forgive my "Novel". If you don't want a long post, then don't read this.

In the last couple of volleys, both steve and max have shown that they are both correct, and actually what the real problem is. The real problem, and that which in my opinion is actually tearing our country down in many respects, is "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS". While it is true that our country wasn't founded with any one religion in mind, it can not be ignored that the founding fathers and most significant socio-political individuals since that time were indeed men/women of faith. And that faith was indeed christian based. Of course, political correctness has watered that down to have us almost believe that our forefathers were agnostic.

Instead of allowing and respecting the minority as they celebrate or express their beliefs, the politically correct instead try and forbid the majority from expressing their beliefs. 94% of Americans say they believe in some form of God, while 76% identify themselves as Christians. So while it's true that our country is based on the principal that there is no state dictated religion, one can not argue that the majority of Americans, including those who have made historic choices and laws in our country, were indeed those of a christian faith. But even though the vast majority of our country considers themselves Christian, that majority is challenged all the time from putting up christmas symbols in public or using the word God in many venues.

This isn't just about religion. Political correctness is dividing people of our country from many directions. Simply listen to the news. If a group of individuals are referenced based on race, in the same sentence, one group will be called "White" while the other group isn't usually referred to as BLACK, but rather as "African American". In order to not offend anyone, because they aren't given enough credit to have enough self esteem on their own, the word "MAN" which is actually a root word referring to a species and does not reference the "SEX" of a person; e.g. huMAN, MANkind, etc... But instead, we now have "SalesPERSON", "CongressPERSON", etc...

And because we want others to "Feel Good" about themselves, we can't push our capitalist economic system in front of them where they might feel less important or successful as others. So they can't be a "Garbage Man", they have to be "Sanitation Engineers". Even the part time worker at Wal-Mart or whatever is now referred to as a "Retail Associate" or something similar. Just to boost their self-esteem.

Political correctness is indeed causing great harm to this country. They are trying to convince people that "Fairness" and "Equality" are the same thing. Therefor, people have to be referred to neutrally, so that they are equal. And this leads to economic means of making people "Equal". TAKE from those who have, and GIVE to those that don't have. At one time, our country gave a large percentage of their private income to charities, neighbors, helped family members in need, etc... But then the government got too involved with different forms of welfare. What once was a means of a "Helping Hand" to get someone back on their feet, has turn into "ENTITLEMENTS". And again, many people are being made to believe, by the "Politically Correct" that "FAIRNESS" and "EQUALITY" are the same thing. Well, they aren't the same.

What is "FAIR" is allowing everyone the same opportunities. That however doesn't mean that we will be equal. Kobe Bryant, even if I was given the exact same basketball opportunities as he was, will ALWAYS be better than I could ever be. No matter how good I think I am with money and business, Bill Gates and Donald Trump will always be better at business and investing that I will be. Same with people are carpenters, electricians, plumbers, auto-mechanics, drafters, chess players, lacrosse, etc... We will NEVER be equals. Some will be better than me at certain things, and I will be better than others are at certain things. But Political Correctness has eaten the core value away of a person being in charge of their own destiny. Now, if one person has MORE money, better job, more possessions, more free time, or more of anything else than someone else; and they aren't equal; then that's NOT FAIR. And the Politically Correct want to change that.

And they may not inside believe that they are changing this country into a socialist state, but they are. Again, "Fairness" and "Equality" are not the same thing. But that is the only way you can have equality of many of the social and economic means in the world. And whether it's not allowing people to say certain things publicly, because they have the word GOD in it, or they change the terminology that they referred to individuals as, it's purpose is the same: to create an equality. NOT A FAIRNESS!!!! Remember, Fairness and Equality are NOT the same thing. ONLY the Politically Correct are having people believe they are. If the "MAJORITY" of a classroom believe in saying the pledge of allegiance, then that is what should be allowed. And for those who don't want to participate, they don't have to. I grew up in the New York City area. There are a LOT of sub-cultures there. little italy had their own celebrations. Greeks had theirs. Chinatown had theirs. Everyone was allowed to celebrate and express themselves as they saw appropriate. And if you didn't want to participate in another's, that was fine. That is "Fair". Equality has nothing to do with it. And when the majority of an area happens to be christian, and they celebrate Christmas, then there is nothing wrong with allowing them to display a christmas tree or even their associated pagan symbols such as "Santa Clause". But they are the majority. And as such, it is normal for their expressions to be more recognized.

But the Politically Correct are going for "Equality". That is totally against what our country was founded on. People don't realize that Atheism IS A RELIGION. Therefor, "NO GOD" in public, and forcing people to adhere to this, is EXACTLY the same a forcing everyone to recognize and believe in the SAME God. If everyone ISN'T ALLOWED to publicly acknowledge God, then they are equal. If No-One is allowed to say the pledge or national anthem, then they are EQUAL. If No-One is allowed to put up "Religious Holiday" symbols, because we don't want to offend certain people, then they are EQUAL. And the more you try and make people Equal SOCIALLY, the more you MUST make them Equal ECONOMICALLY. Which will lead to socialism. The problem with the pledge, national anthem, religion, god, race, sex, etc... isn't anything about respect or our rights. It's about political correct individuals convincing you that "Fairness" and "Equality" are the same thing. And as long as you believe that these 2 things somehow are related and go together, the more socialist our country will become and head towards.

 

[SteveHolt243]

I believe the quote from the article was the school will not allow Harrington to say the pledge.

I agree that no one should be forced to say the pledge or thought less of for not saying the pledge. However, everyone should be given the opportunity. And the lack of the opportunity presented by the school is the main problem I see.

It's pretty clear the school was banning any form of school-led pledge, even voluntary. I don't get the impression the school was banning him from standing out in the hall in the morning and saying it himself.


EDIT: Didn't make myself clear here - it seems from the story and the school's response that Harrington wasn't just trying to say the pledge, but rather that he wanted the school to formally lead the students. I don't think he tried to say the pledge in the hall and someone told him he wasn't allowed to.

 

[LineInTheSand]

So is the ban an encroachment of the freedom of speech?

Surely someone is offended by having to sit through morning announcements....let's ban that too.

Maybe they don't want to listen to Martin Luther King Jr.'s daughter speak on MLK Day....let's ban that too.

Goes on and on.

We had the pledge when I was in high school. One kid our of 20-30 would not say the pledge, and this was immediately after 9/11/01. No one yelled at him or made fun of him. Sure, in the back of our minds, we always questioned what was wrong with him. Turns out something was wrong with him, he shot himself once he got to college.

Saying I love my girlfriend isn't the only way I show I do, but if I am unwilling to say "I love you", what message does that give her about me true feelings.