Political Views

[falcongirl]

There are for sure very few really extreme Michael Moore liberals in the service- but the US Military is not just a wing of either the Republican party or the Tea Party.

I agree that there are extremists on both sides, whether Michael Moore or Rush Limbaugh (or Zaphod ), who do go overboard.

I simply said that you won't find them demeaning our Armed Forces ... calling them murderers ... comparing them to Phol Pot, Nazis ...

Extremists. Why are they extremists? Their views are extreme and not representative of liberals as a whole.


Does anyone else find it slightly sad that the party bashing on this forum is all one sided? Yes, we all consider our views to be the right ones. What are you trying to accomplish? I believe the original topic under discussion was the political make-up of the military, not Republicans vs. Democrats or Conservatives vs. Liberals.

 

[Zaphod]

I agree that there are extremists on both sides, whether Michael Moore or Rush Limbaugh (or Zaphod ), who do go overboard.

The difference is that Rush and I go overboard DEFENDING this country and its ideals, while Michael Moore has to go to Cuba to pretend to be intelligent.

Extremists. Why are they extremists? Their views are extreme and not representative of liberals as a whole.

Well, all those examples came from members of Congress, on the floor of the Congress, which just confirms that a party that, despite my disagreements with their policies still loved America, has gone completely off the deep end. THEY are the extremists and the radicals. Not us.

Does anyone else find it slightly sad that the party bashing on this forum is all one sided? Yes, we all consider our views to be the right ones. What are you trying to accomplish? I believe the original topic under discussion was the political make-up of the military, not Republicans vs. Democrats or Conservatives vs. Liberals.

Wah. What's the matter, don't like opposing views? Isn't that what Liberals always accuse everyone else of?

I find it slightly sad that Liberals still get away with the notion that they are the party of thinking people, individualists, and the like when they they are the most close-minded pack of lemmings the world has ever seen.

Also, how can you possibly discuss the political makeup of the United States military without mentioning Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, and Conservatives? That's what we have in this country for political parties. Would you prefer we talk of Whigs, Torries, and Labour?

 

[falcongirl]

I will defend 1st amendment rights, including freedom of speech, to the death. I might not agree with what people choose to use that right to say or do, but I will defend their right to say and do it. Even though I have my own views, I keep an open mind to consider other viewpoints and the reasons behind them. However, there is a difference between stating ones views and trying to prove everyone else wrong. I see no point in making this thread an argument, so I'm out.

 

[Zaphod]

However, there is a difference between stating ones views and trying to prove everyone else wrong.

Tell that to your fellow liberals. After all, anyone who states a view they don't agree with is immediately labeled a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, or a bigot (in case they want to be brief in their description).

Remember, dissent was patriotic.......... right up until it was THEM being dissented against. Now it's "borderline sedition".

And I've been around long enough to know what views are legitimate and which ones are crap. It may surprise you to learn that I, too, once held very liberal beliefs despite being pro-military and ferociously patriotic.

You know what happened? I grew up. Time and experience are the best teachers on earth.

 

[MakeItHappen]

I will defend 1st amendment rights, including freedom of speech, to the death. I might not agree with what people choose to use that right to say or do, but I will defend their right to say and do it. Even though I have my own views, I keep an open mind to consider other viewpoints and the reasons behind them. However, there is a difference between stating ones views and trying to prove everyone else wrong. I see no point in making this thread an argument, so I'm out.

Very well said, falcongirl. No use in dealing with folks, who speak in generalizations and anecdotes, especially those who wrap themselves around Rush or Moore. Those guys get paid to be extreme and infotain; only the brain dead hold them out as anything more.

BTW, there once was this registered republican who detonated a truck bomb in OK city, killing and maiming scores. A terrorist, if you will. All republicans are probably like that. RRIIIIGGHHTT

 

[rotcdonde]

Tell that to your fellow liberals. After all, anyone who states a view they don't agree with is immediately labeled a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, or a bigot (in case they want to be brief in their description).
.

I think the liberals you're refering to tend to be the uneducated, unintelligent liberals. Not all liberals think that way, and even I am embarrassed for them and for myself when I hear them say things like that.

There are also some pretty unintelligent conservatives out there too, who are just as ignorant.

The problem is that too many people just parrot back political stupidity that they hear from their friends or family (or even the news), without thinking about issues and politics and actually forming their own opinion.

 

[nick4060]

What do you mena by that?

I was curious about that comment too.

I think people need to not look just at the President when it comes to the military. SOD is a big player in the game. Additionally, an even bigger player is the power on the Hill. And the final person that is the game player would be SOS.

IMHO, Clinton was a weak military leader because of Secretary Albright. SOD Cohen could not or would not stand ground against her. She was not a fan of the military and had no problem acknowledging it. She was against Iraq, but for Kosovo, even defending her stance after Leslie Stahl asked her about 500K children dieing under Saddam. Her power with Clinton literally tied Cohen's hands. I do think the best thing he did was to fire Gen. Clark.

What I mean is that Obama has taken a pragmatic approach to his foreign and defense policy. He's not a dove like Clinton, nor a G.W. Bush-like hawk.

And I agree with Pima that most policy comes from appointed officials. But its the President who appoints them. Case in point, he did not get rid of Bob Gates. Gates is a product of the first Bush admin and a long-time republican. But Obama kept him on. It seems to me that he understands national security isnt just another partisan political issue. He didnt take the politically-motivated route and put some party hack in during this time of war.

He trusts Gates and backs him up when standing up against big defense contractors on issues like the F-22 and F-136 engine. He added 30,000 troops to Afghanistan. He got rid of the neocon influence in DoD and put in practical people like Michelle Flournoy (policy) and Ashton Carter (acquisitions) while keeping effective ones like James Clapper (intel).

I'm not saying that everything Obama does is perfect. I dont agree with his economic policy and he's completely politically-motivated on social issues (i.e. healthcare). But my main concern when voting is national security. And in the past two years, the actions of his administration prove that he's willing to back off and let defense and foreign policy professionals work.

 

[mko1991]

But my main concern when voting is national security. And in the past two years, the actions of his administration prove that he's willing to back off and let defense and foreign policy professionals work.

True That.

 

[Luigi59]

To begin with, no modern Liberal would tolerate the phrase you quoted above being included in a public document. The "Creator" is not to be mentioned. So much for freedom of speech and religion.

I don't necessary think that is the case.

For example - would you consider AfricanAmerican voters more liberal or more conservative?

Most polls would indicate that as a voting block, over 90% of AfricanAmericans identify themselves with the Democrat Party/liberal side versus the conservative Republican side.

And yet, AfricanAmericans attend regular church services on a much higher percentage rate than whites, and more black voters identify themselves as "religious" as well.

Table 1: Adult Weekly Attendance by Family Structure, Race, Ethnicity, and Gender

How do you resolve such a discrepancy in you allegation that "most liberals" wouldn't tolerate the mention of "a Creator" when a majority of them are more religious than their conservative brethren?



Would you be in favor of mandatory membership in a State Religion or National Church (ala The CoE to run for Parliament in the UK) to run for office here in the USA?

Would you be in favor of closing down newspapers critical of the Government?

Would you be in favor of the Government accessing and classifying your library card data, keeping track of what books you checked out?

You can thank the most liberal organization in the world, the ACLU, for fighting for YOUR civil rights against totalitarian Government intrusion and control.

 

[vampsoul]

I agree.

I don't have to agree with someone 100%, so long as I am confident that they are dealing in good faith.

Sadly, I have yet to meet a Liberal who can claim that.

I know many well-intentioned social liberals. It is the fiscal liberals I find to be generally interested in a hand-out.

 

[Maximus]

Can you say tacky?

I'd say that was spot on.

 

[Maximus]

i was surprised when my AP US history teacher, a former Captain in the US Army Rangers held liberal views (he's in his fifties, and white); affirmative action, supporter for the single pay healthcare system (he said the military has tricare, so apparently the federal government is doing its job, why not for the civilian sector), supports banking regulation and probably more left than President Barack Obama . But the one thing that was stuck in my head is that when you're in the military, Officer or Enlisted, your political views should not be above your duties as a Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine, or Coast Guardsmen as the Constitution was left intentionally vague for future generations to interpret it to their times.

and btw: i also consider myself a proud liberal

Funny how he felt compelled to "teach" you that....sounds more like typical liberal indoctrination. BTW, he feels the Constitution is a living/breathing document? lol...not a surprise.

 

[Roman]

I know many well-intentioned social liberals. It is the fiscal liberals I find to be generally interested in a hand-out.

I hear quite a few people describe themselves as "socially liberal and fiscally conservative."

I have a hard time seeing how that is not an oxymoron.

 

[vampsoul]

I hear quite a few people describe themselves as "socially liberal and fiscally conservative," and I have a hard time seeing how that is not an oxymoron.

Why?

 

[Pima]

I think people's views change as they age. You will find most military members slant to the right because of the appearance that the right supports the military. When I married Bullet I was a dem., as time went by and I saw how the military was always being attacked by the left, my voting position changed. My main priority was my family, and I did not view the left as supporting my family.

There are studies out there that show people change their party based on the stages of their lives.

For example, younger voters place a higher priority on social issues than people in their 30's/40's. People in their 30's/40's generally are busy having children, buying homes, working, etc. They see their paycheck shrinking due to taxes. They are no longer concerned about the "draft", what they are concerned about is making a mtg pmt.

40's/50's, they start changing again because now they don't want their child to be "drafted", they worry about the market to pay for their child's education. Both are strong points regarding the right.

60's, they start leaning left because now they are looking at their govt benefits. They now want the govt involved for medicare and SS. Their children are grown and the military means little in their voting decision.
Additionally, their desire regarding the stock market is important, but it takes a back seat to SS and medicare.

Now regarding the teacher who retired as a Captain and is in his 50's. I would love for you to go back to him and ask if he is in Tri-Care. I doubt it unless he was enlisted 1st, because you can only be in Tri-Care if you are retired or AD. Capt would not fill that square unless he would have not served 20.

To state Tri-Care is doing its job, when not in the program is like me stating Medicare is working (I am 45). I have no working knowledge of Medicare. If he thinks it is working so well, I would love to talk to him, since as a newly retired spouse, Bullet and I do everything humanly possible to stay away from tri-care. We actually pay out of pocket for primary insurance so we don't use it. AND YES, retirees pay for tri-care, thus we pay 2 insurance payments. The irony is under Tri-Care we pay 128 a month, with 20% co-pay, referrals, no vision and no dental. Under Bullet's office we pay 133 a month, no co-pay, no referrals, and have both vision and dental. We have kept Tri-Care because it picks up the difference for prescriptions from our other insurance.

Ask him to defend Tri-Care regarding health insurance. Just like everything else in the military the lowest bidder wins the contract. Don't know about you, but when it comes to my health, my family's health, I prefer a doctor who is looking at the bottom $.

 

[Roman]

Why?

Money is required for social programs, and modern liberalism requires (largely unnecessary) social programs. Maybe that's a bad example...

I googled this oxymoron and people agree with me, so I'm satisfied.

 

[Pima]

Roman,

I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal. It is easy to be both.

I don't believe in big govt. I detest pork barrel spending. I believe that supporting the military creates jobs. Look historically at the outcry over base closures. No town wants the base to close because they know the military fiscally supports them through Real Estate, shopping, dining, etc., yet many of the voters in these towns would say they are dems. Same is true why Seattle goes insane if Boeing loses a large military contract. Funny how you can be anti-war/defense, but when it hits you personally you can change your tune very quickly. How can you be a liberal, but want the govt to spend on defense? Easy, it's your paycheck that is involved.

I am a social liberal, because I don't believe the govt should be involved in someone's personal life. If you want to be a homosexual, then go for it, I believe they should have the same rights as me, a heterosexual. If you want to have an abortion, whom am I to judge you? Just don't ask me to pay for the abortion. If you are watching a love one die from a terminal illness and they want to end on their own terms, they should have that ability.

A fiscal conservative can be socially liberal. Socially liberal does not necessarily mean we want the govt to pay for programs, it can mean that we want the govt out of our personal business.

 

[Roman]

Pima,

What are you opinions on health care?

 

[Pima]

If you are asking about Nationalized Health Care, I am opposed to it, especially if they try to sell it using Tri-Care as the model.

As I stated earlier, we receive better care under Aetna, with more benefits at the same cost as Tri-Care. Fun fact: A retiree now is usually sent off base/post because they are overcrowded, that means as a retiree you are going to pay a co-pay, and in certain areas you may be searching for a needle in a haystack to get that doc.

I lived Tri-Care for 20 yrs as an ADAF spouse, due to Tri-Care and their referral docs, I waited 3 months to get mis-diagnosed, I now have Traumatic Arthritis. Goes back to lowest bidder philosophy. As a military spouse of a flyer I got the "priviledged" treatment.

I understand that for some they have exorbitant premiums, however, the minute you change the system, supply and demand will be changed. We simply do not have enough docs to absorb the influx of new patients.

I will also state that I lived in the UK and was seen by an ER doc for a head wound while I was 3 mos pregnant. The horror story behind my treatment would make you cringe, thus my opinion is jaded.

 

[mko1991]

Now regarding the teacher who retired as a Captain and is in his 50's. I would love for you to go back to him and ask if he is in Tri-Care. I doubt it unless he was enlisted 1st, because you can only be in Tri-Care if you are retired or AD. Capt would not fill that square unless he would have not served 20.

To state Tri-Care is doing its job, when not in the program is like me stating Medicare is working (I am 45). I have no working knowledge of Medicare. If he thinks it is working so well, I would love to talk to him, since as a newly retired spouse, Bullet and I do everything humanly possible to stay away from tri-care. We actually pay out of pocket for primary insurance so we don't use it. AND YES, retirees pay for tri-care, thus we pay 2 insurance payments. The irony is under Tri-Care we pay 128 a month, with 20% co-pay, referrals, no vision and no dental. Under Bullet's office we pay 133 a month, no co-pay, no referrals, and have both vision and dental. We have kept Tri-Care because it picks up the difference for prescriptions from our other insurance.

.

yes, my former teacher was a prior enlisted, served 20+ years in the Army. and btw it wasnt liberal indoctrination during class; this was just small talk about US Government and i just played devils advocate to see where he stood on the political compass