Possibility of Appointment, and suggestions?

frenzymando said:
I don't think even Harvard requires 2 years of a foreign language. There is a difference between having to have something and something being very helpful. I will only have 1 year of a foreign language by graduation but I still have full ride offers from many schools and have been told that I am competitive for service academies.

I am curious, how do you have full ride offers for next year at this moment for the class of 2020?

Not saying you don't, but most colleges even for EA won't send out the merit packages until Nov. at the earliest.

Are your offers Merit, athletics, or Diversity based? There is a huge difference.
I'll automatically qualify for full ride based off of my GPA and test scores at several colleges. I'm not sure if that's the same thing as an offer, but I qualify for them.

I would take that as an In State program. Totally different impo than applying to that same college as an OOS applicant.

Totally different than applying to an Ivy, or top tier college like Notre Dame, Stanford, etc. USAFA is on the level of Ivy or top tier.
~ Again Noah could live in CA where the Senators can have 500-700 applicants for 1 slate of 10. Do you believe that they would make it to the interview level if they only have 1 or 2 foreign languages on their transcript, if the other 499 have the exact same cgpa, same ECs, but took 3 years of foreign language?

That is the point. Eventually there will be a cut. It starts at the MOC nomination level.
 
frenzymando said:
I don't think even Harvard requires 2 years of a foreign language. There is a difference between having to have something and something being very helpful. I will only have 1 year of a foreign language by graduation but I still have full ride offers from many schools and have been told that I am competitive for service academies.

I am curious, how do you have full ride offers for next year at this moment for the class of 2020?

Not saying you don't, but most colleges even for EA won't send out the merit packages until Nov. at the earliest.

Are your offers Merit, athletics, or Diversity based? There is a huge difference.
I'll automatically qualify for full ride based off of my GPA and test scores at several colleges. I'm not sure if that's the same thing as an offer, but I qualify for them.

I would take that as an In State program. Totally different impo than applying to that same college as an OOS applicant.

Totally different than applying to an Ivy, or top tier college like Notre Dame, Stanford, etc. USAFA is on the level of Ivy or top tier.
~ Again Noah could live in CA where the Senators can have 500-700 applicants for 1 slate of 10. Do you believe that they would make it to the interview level if they only have 1 or 2 foreign languages on their transcript, if the other 499 have the exact same cgpa, same ECs, but took 3 years of foreign language?

That is the point. Eventually there will be a cut. It starts at the MOC nomination level.
I come from a very competitive district, one of the most competitive in the country. I live right by an Army base so many people apply to service academies here. I was told by an FFR to take JROTC instead of a foreign language class because my academic profile strong while my leadership profile isn't all that great. I would be shocked if a 2400 SAT valedictorian didn't even make it to the interview stage just because he or she only had 1 course of a foreign language. If 2 candidates are identical and one has foreign language courses and the other does not, I would bet the one with foreign language courses would win. If one candidate has a 2400 SAT with no foreign language classes and the other candidate has a 1900 with foreign language classes, I would bet on the 2400 SAT candidate. Is it harder to get in without foreign language courses? Yes. Is it impossible? No.
 
frenzymando said:
I don't think even Harvard requires 2 years of a foreign language. There is a difference between having to have something and something being very helpful. I will only have 1 year of a foreign language by graduation but I still have full ride offers from many schools and have been told that I am competitive for service academies.

I am curious, how do you have full ride offers for next year at this moment for the class of 2020?

Not saying you don't, but most colleges even for EA won't send out the merit packages until Nov. at the earliest.

Are your offers Merit, athletics, or Diversity based? There is a huge difference.
I'll automatically qualify for full ride based off of my GPA and test scores at several colleges. I'm not sure if that's the same thing as an offer, but I qualify for them.

I would take that as an In State program. Totally different impo than applying to that same college as an OOS applicant.

Totally different than applying to an Ivy, or top tier college like Notre Dame, Stanford, etc. USAFA is on the level of Ivy or top tier.
~ Again Noah could live in CA where the Senators can have 500-700 applicants for 1 slate of 10. Do you believe that they would make it to the interview level if they only have 1 or 2 foreign languages on their transcript, if the other 499 have the exact same cgpa, same ECs, but took 3 years of foreign language?

That is the point. Eventually there will be a cut. It starts at the MOC nomination level.
Also it's not an in-state program, anyone with my test scores and GPA can qualify.
 
OK, let's say you opt not to take 2 or 3 years of a foreign language, and by a miracle, you receive a nom, and then an appointment. Now, you show up at BCT and you will be ASSIGNED a language, having taken none in high school. Yeah, that's gonna do wonders for you.
 
Unfortunately, there is no Black and White checklist that you can look at and say: "Complete the following Blocks and you receive an appointment". It doesn't work that way. And for what it's worth, I've seen an individual with a 35 ACT. (3 of the 4 tests they had a 36, the 4th test a 35). And they DID NOT receive an appointment. This was a couple years ago. The problem was, academics and the standardized test was all this individual had. A 4.0gpa unweighted and a near perfect ACT.

I mention this, because you can't blindly say that a valedictorian with a 2400 SAT with 1 foreign language course would win over a 1900 SAT and 4 years of foreign language. There is so much more to the process. How about the athletics they were involved in? What about the clubs they were part of? What about any leadership roles they had? How about their volunteer hours? What about the mandatory online letters of recommendations by their teachers? What about their school profile? Did they have the IB program and/or many AP classes to choose from? Did they TAKE those classes or were in the IB program? If their school was small and didn't have all those great classes, did the individual do the best with what was offered? (That's why class RANK is so important). Did the individual try to make up for a lack of available classes by taking community college courses or online classes?

What about adversity? Did the individual have to overcome some horrid experiences in their life? Were they raised by a single parent? Were they in foster homes or an orphanage? Did they have to work every day after school to help support their younger brothers and sisters? Did they grow up on a ranch/farm where they had to work the land because their parents couldn't afford to hire farm hands; and therefor they couldn't participate in sports or many after school activities? Did they have social issues to deal with? Were they they only member of their family who spoke English as a pseudo native language and they spent most of their time helping their parents with their business assimilate into the culture. (I met a kid who's parents immigrated here from Morocco and didn't speak english - this kid didn't apply to the academy, but what if he had?) You have no idea of all the variables that goes into selecting a qualified candidate. There are plenty of things I am not thrilled about with the academy or the process. But all in all, it's a pretty good system.

MOST OF ALL........ What about their COMPETITION??? I, and others, have seen SO MANY applicants with kick A$$ academics, who don't receive appointments. Many don't even get a nomination from their representative or senator. And no matter HOW GREAT you are, without a nomination you can't receive an appointment. (Yes, there are plenty of other ways to get a nomination). It is not uncommon for the 1900 SAT student you exampled to receive an appointment from one district/state, but if s/he was in a different area, they wouldn't have received an appointment. This is why the AVERAGE high school GPA every year of appointees going into the academy, is around 3.86. There will be some of the 4.0's and there will be some of the 3.4's. There will be 34-36 ACT's, and there will be 26-28 ACT's. There will be super-jocks who played 3 high schools sports and captained and played varsity for 3 years. And there will be some that only had the opportunity to play city league soccer in the spring.

I'm simply saying, that you can't say that a particular candidate, with an ABC academics and schedule, WILL or WON'T receive an appointment over someone else who you believe has an XYZ level of academics. It is so much more. And as I said, as will Steve (Flieger) and any other ALO or individual who's been directly involved with the Academies, there have been PLENTY of 4.0 unweighted gpa's and 35/36 ACT 2300/2400 SAT who DIDN'T receive appointments. Of course, some times you find an individual who is in the "NO BRAINER CLUB". They have that 31+ACT/2200+SAT, 4.0GPA unweighted, IB Program or took every AP class there was, Class Rank #1, Class Officer, Played 3 Varsity Sports, captain of 2 of them, belonged to other clubs and activities and was a leader in them, had 200-300 hours of volunteer time, was selected and did boy/girl's state, kicked the crap of the CFA, bla bla bla. Easily passed their medical and ALO interviews with flying colors. Basically, the best applicant possible. This is about the top 1% of all applicants. They will make it into any of the academies. Hell, they'll make it into ANY university that they apply for. But with this 1% aside, the academy is full of cadets who use to be the big fish in a little pond. But the academy has also rejected a lot of applicants who many thought were shoe in's. Usually because their academics were so high. The only reason that academics makes up 60% of the application's score, is BECAUSE IT CAN. Out of the 12,000 applicants who start the process to apply, about half of those would have no problem with the academics at the academy. The academy knows that finding kids who can handle the academic work load is NOT going to be a problem. But the academy isn't in the business of graduating a bunch of future professors, stock brokers, lawyers, etc. They are in the business of graduating LEADERS! Individuals who have a well rounded education; has been involved with the "TEAM CONCEPT" and understands how to be part of a team. (One reason sports is so important). An officer that can lead individuals with earned respect. An officer that can ensure the objectives are achieved, while hopefully keeping their team alive.

Basically, when comparing any 2 applicants; or comparing how "COMPETITIVE" you think your school is; or how good your chances are, etc. Most of the time these questions are moot. Unless you truly know the applicant's ENTIRE APPLICATION, and unless you know the applications of all their competition both at district/state level and NATIONALLY; there is absolutely no way to say if the academy would take the 2400 SAT with little/no language over the 1900 SAT with 4 years of language. You're trying to create an IMPOSSIBLE theoretical. You can't say: "All other things being equal". I can tell you right now, there are NO 2 applicants in the entire process, who's applications are "EQUAL". That's why ALO's interviews are SO IMPORTANT. An ALO can not GET you an appointment. But I can guarantee you that an ALO can STOP you from ever receiving an appointment. This is the variable that you can talk about "All other things being equal". Simply doesn't work that way.

Sorry for the diatribe. Nothing I was saying here is to be taken personal by anyone reading this. I may have used some examples that were in some of the previous posts, but I'm simply making a point about the process. About how complicated it is. Not trying to argue anyone's position.
 
Noah,

Just some ideas about language learning to increase your numbers and be creative with your language options.

Perhaps you can complete a language program in the evenings by taking a class that is NOT offered at your high school, such as a National Security Language. In the school area that I live, my DS was able to get high school credits for taking a Russian language class at the local college paid for by the Youth Options Program. It looked great on his high school transcript and he enjoyed his adult classmates. He also went to Russia twice during high school because of his interest in the language. He enlisted in the Navy and instead of cussing in English, he works the Russian while stationed in Japan! ;)

Also, there are programs that offer a full high school credit for language learning during the summer, such as Concordia Language Village in Minnesota. It's expensive, but their are many scholarships available. My dd (a rising Senior) took a huge course load her freshman and sophomore year, which also included some online classes, summer school and Concordia Language Village. She completed five years of German language classes by her Junior year and will be completing a Hindi immersion language program this summer for six weeks in India.

By the way, DD has stuck with Orchestra all four years. Music means so much to her.

Hope this helps Music Man!
 
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At our HS in NC, we had a friends DD that also took foreign language on line from our CC because she was really into photography. She started her own photography business at 15. Eventually she had so many clients that she was doing weddings on the weekend, thus weeknights she was working on the proofs. Her summers were filled with doing senior portraits. Thus, the only way to get foreign language was on line.
~ She also managed to pop out 4 years within 1 year. (Fall, spring, summer1, and summer 2).

In the end she was accepted to UNC for photography. She was able to do what she loved at school, and still found a way to be competitive academically for one of the top 5 Public Ivies in the nation.

Sometimes you have to think outside of the box.

Noah, years from now you will have to write essays for USAFA, MOCs and colleges. IMPO, it is the kid that found success via a unique path make the best essays. Being able to stay with Marching Band and finding a way to stay academically competitive can be one of those great essays.
 
I second Janie Raincloud!
 
frenzy,

Having 2400 is great, but now a days because they superscore it is not as uncommon as it was years ago when they only used best sitting. For AFROTC scholarship they do not superscore. It is best sitting. The avg for a type 1 is @1370 out of 1600. It would not be a shock to me that these same candidates will be 2300+ from a superscore aspect.

I am not trying to be antagonistic, but just agreeing with Mike. Also illustrating that your assumption you will be the only one with that SAT score in your district/state is an assumption.
~ Fairfax county boasts that the average SAT (best sitting) for their schools are 1350. That is their average. There will be a lot of 1600s in their county.
~ VA is considered not only an academically competitive state in the nation by rankings (USNWR, Money, Fortune), but also because they have so many military installations, many kids try for the SAs. It is not uncommon to have 500-750 candidates for each MoC. The MoCs talk to spread the wealth. Gaining more than 1 nomination is typically a feat! It gets even worse for the candidates where that 1 nomination comes from an MoC that does principal.

Again, not trying to be my usual Janie Raincloud, but once you start to see how big your pool, and if the MoCs talk, than you probably should realize that you probably will not be the only valedictorian, with 2400 on their slate. From there it becomes who wins that appointment. Thus, they will be looking at everything Mike stated. Every point will matter, that includes the rigor of your curriculum to volunteer hours, athletics and CFA. 3 years of foreign language could give them the edge over you by a smidgen. That smidgen equates to you going to the NWL since you did not win the appointment. Now you are fighting for the appointment with everyone else in the nation.
~ Using VA again, it is not uncommon to see many kids come off the NWL from Fairfax because as I stated before that school system ranks high in the nation.

Best of luck, as everyone will always say keep adding onto your resume. Get plan B in place. If you know of some medical issue that may require a waiver start researching that now to get in front of it.
 
Mike or Steve,

Curiosity question regarding the avg SAT/ACT. Do ALL Prep cadets retake the SAT/ACT while they do their 1 year or is it optional? From a mathematical perspective that could pull down the avg score if they didn't retake it during that year. If they don't take it as a prep, than I wonder what would be the direct admit from HS avg.

As you stated, if the median is 32, that means for every 36 cadet there will be a 28 cadet. If the prep cadets avg 28 without a retake, than it changes the real numbers. Basically if 100 are prep with a 28 avg, than you need 100 36 straight admits to get to the 32 number.
~ No flaming, I know that is just rough figures, but you get my point.

Just asking because I have always been under the impression that the majority of cadets offered prep are given this opportunity because academically they need 1 more year in their opinion to be on par with the direct admit cadets.
 
There's no firm Yes or No on retaking. It really depends on how they did when they were applying the first time around. Some think that if a person is at the prep school, then they automatically must have had a bad ACT/SAT or their GPA wasn't all that great. Usually, the individual who gets to the prep school; excluding enlisted personnel which is totally different; didn't do all that bad during the application process. What I find is the norm. is that it's an area in that person's application that wasn't so good. Example: One of my kids (Applicants) a couple years ago, did decent on their ACT tests. They averaged a 29 I believe. But for the life of them, no math class they ever took was above a "C". They had sports, leadership, volunteer, EC, etc. They were actually the type of person you'd expect to get a prep school slot. They learned how to do math at the Prep school and they received an appointment and received an appointment the next year on their existing application data and existing ACT scores. On the other hand, I had a prior enlisted who got into the prep school who had very average grades in school and very average ACT/SAT scores. They made it through the prep school, but they didn't receive an appointment the next year. Even after retaking the ACT/SAT tests. He met the minimum requirements, e.g. 26 ACT, but combining his grades at the Prep school and everything else, he did not receive an appointment. (That was this year actually). He returned to being an Airman like he was before getting the prep school. And in case anyone is curious, he's also a minority, so that didn't even help him in this case.

So some retake the ACT/SAT to better improve their chances. Being the applications close in February, many of the prep kids actually already retook the ACT/SAT in the spring prior to attending the prep school in the hopes it would help them, even though it wouldn't help that year's application. So I'd say it's an individual thing.
 
Thanks.

I was just wondering, because I was also thinking how they can do it since SAT/ACTs are on Saturdays. Do they offer them there are do they have to find a way to go off base to the closest HS? In the Fall, that could mean if they take both the SAT and ACT they are taking it 2x a month for 3 month, it would be hard to do this if they don't proctor it there.

I never saw it as that they did bad on the SAT. I always saw it as they did not have the academic foundation. Let's be honest, USAFA is known as the Little Engineering School in the Rockies! They (USAFA) know that the next 4 years is a ton of Math and Science. That foundation has to be there before they show up.

I think many do see it that way because the chances are if you don't have the foundation than your SAT/ACT score will be lower.
~ I guess the reason why I see as the foundation aspect is because I have never heard of a candidate that had a 36 on their ACT, but a 3.0 cgpa offered Prep. In this scenario it is saying you have the brains, but didn't apply yourself in the classroom. I have seen the 3.6 cgpa, but 26 ACT because they may have test anxiety.

Back to my question, if the candidate does not take it again, than you are saying that will be their SAT score used if admitted the following year? That means to me that direct HS SAT/ACT may be higher than the avg appointment score.

I can be 1000% wrong.

Sorry for going off topic.
 
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Honestly, I've not checked on HOW they do retaking ACT/SAT at the academy. I know some have retaken them while at Prep. Maybe they are done there. Maybe at Academy High School which is on Base too. Either of those would make for a very convenient way to retake. Again, I don't know how they do it, but I do know some that have retaken the ACT/SAT. And like I mentioned previously, I know quite a few that retook them in the spring after the february cutoff. It didn't help that year's application obviously; but it may have helped them for the next season and they didn't retake it again because it improved.
 
What about adversity? Did the individual have to overcome some horrid experiences in their life? Were they raised by a single parent? Were they in foster homes or an orphanage? Did they have to work every day after school to help support their younger brothers and sisters? Did they grow up on a ranch/farm where they had to work the land because their parents couldn't afford to hire farm hands; and therefor they couldn't participate in sports or many after school activities? Did they have social issues to deal with? Were they they only member of their family who spoke English as a pseudo native language and they spent most of their time helping their parents with their business assimilate into the culture.

I have known several kids who do not want to mention adversity in their lives. Some believe it is because it is looking for "the pity vote," and others because they don't think it is "adverse" enough, and etc. Some of these kids had a parent diagnosed and treated for cancer during their high school years. They had to limit their participation in activities due to the situation at home (helped take care of household, siblings, ill parent,etc. during all this). They did manage to keep up good grades though their gpa dropped approx 5 to 10 points during that time. They wouldn't mention it on any college applications when asked about dealing with adversity.

It isn't easy to get kids to open up about such events in their lives. How often do you encounter kids in an adverse situation who doesn't see it as adverse or doesn't wish it to be presented as adverse? I have tried to convince a few that mentioning a parent with cancer and the extra responsibility they took on is not looking for the "pity vote" as it shows they dealt with a very difficult situation. Keeping up A's in honors levels courses and participation on a limited basis while taking on additional family responsibility during such a time is demonstrating responsibility, maturity and ability to cope with a difficult situation.
 
Mike,
Thanks for the reply. Like I said it was just a curiosity question regarding when USAFA states the incoming class profile.
~ I will repeat what you and Steve always say...what should you shoot for on the SAT/ACT...2400/36.

Momba,

10,000% agree.

There are many candidates that have faced problems as a teen, that we, as parents, have difficulties with as adults.
~ This is where impo the essays and interviews become a factor.

IE: Candidate in an interview with their ALO or MOC committee:
~ I/WE see your cgpa dropped last year, can you explain why?
~~ Yes Sir.
My sibling died after being hit by a drunk driver. It hit my family hard. However, you can see with my newest transcript, I am back on track. I realized that she would be mad at me if I didn't !

They are not heartless people. They look at the whole picture. They remember being 17. They are not the enemy, nor do they expect you to be the best thing since hot sliced bread. They get it.
~ Nobody should ever view them as anything more than the people that want to see you succeed.

That being stated, for candidates, I am not someone that believes you do no harm by having 2400 SAT and less than 3 foreign languages.
~ Sorry frenzy, but I can't see a valedictorian at my kids schools (1 graduated NC, 2 from VA), having only 1 foreign language under their belt in HS. Caveat: My kids schools had AP/IB/AICE programs.
~~Maybe it is just me as an east coast girl, but as a parent that would never ever happen or fly in this house. 3 years is the min. for foreign language.
~~~ I am going to look up my kids HS requirements for graduation, but I am almost 1000% positive they need 2 years foreign language for HS requirements.
~~~~ Edit: Just looked it up. In VA to get a HS standard diploma according to VA, you need 2 as the minimum. That is standard, not to be confused with the requirements for AP/IB/AICE diploma.

School profile will also matter.

My new mantra is leave no points on the table. Foreign language from a school profile/rigor is leaving points on the table impo.
 
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I am going to look up my kids HS requirements for graduation, but I am almost 1000% positive they need 2 years foreign language for HS requirements.
~~~~ Edit: Just looked it up. In VA to get a HS standard diploma according to VA, you need 2 as the minimum. That is standard, not to be confused with the requirements for AP/IB/AICE diploma.

Different states have different minimum requirements for HS graduation. Having said that, most competitive colleges require a minimum of 3 years. CT, MA and RI have no minimum foreign language requirement and in NY there is only 1 year. However, if I remember right, the local school districts can set a higher standard than the minimum in these 3 states.
 
Momba. That's where the alo really comes in to play. While some may only meet with the candidate one time just to do their interview, most of us don't. Most alo's meet numerous times with the kids. Most of us mentor the kids and let them know the things they need to work on with their application. We talk with them numerous times. Many times face to face. We ask them what their parents think of their decision to apply. We ask what their parents do for a living. We ask a lot of questions. Some to discover why they lack certain activities like sports, clubs, etc. we ask if they work.

Trust me when I say, that after a couple of meetings, in person or on the phone, we get a feel if the individual has things in their lives that can help or hurt their application. If needed, we go more into it to get more information. And while I can't speak for all or even most alo's, I can tell you that Steve (flieger) and myself speak to the school guidance counselor about our kids who make it to the candidate status.

If we recognize adversity that's been overcome, we will put it in our report in some way. There's even places in the application where we will tell the candidate to make mention of it.

Yes, some applicants don't like to talk about some things. But an alo worth a crap will speak with the candidate enough times to find out if there's anything significant to mention. And the kids are generally more open with us because we aren't their parents or teachers. We are definitely a 3rd party that doesn't affect their private life. So they are usually pretty open with us. Assuming again, the alo is involved. Most are.
 
Noah,

Just some ideas about language learning to increase your numbers and be creative with your language options.

Perhaps you can complete a language program in the evenings by taking a class that is NOT offered at your high school, such as a National Security Language. In the school area that I live, my DS was able to get high school credits for taking a Russian language class at the local college paid for by the Youth Options Program. It looked great on his high school transcript and he enjoyed his adult classmates. He also went to Russia twice during high school because of his interest in the language. He enlisted in the Navy and instead of cussing in English, he works the Russian while stationed in Japan! ;)

Also, there are programs that offer a full high school credit for language learning during the summer, such as Concordia Language Village in Minnesota. It's expensive, but their are many scholarships available. My dd (a rising Senior) took a huge course load her freshman and sophomore year, which also included some online classes, summer school and Concordia Language Village. She completed five years of German language classes by her Junior year and will be completing a Hindi immersion language program this summer for six weeks in India.

By the way, DD has stuck with Orchestra all four years. Music means so much to her.

Hope this helps Music Man!

I've asked my GC about any possible extra classes available before, and she said there were none. I asked about summer classes that would count for a credit, after school, etc.. I'll be sure to look into these other programs though!
 
Momba. That's where the alo really comes in to play. While some may only meet with the candidate one time just to do their interview, most of us don't. Most alo's meet numerous times with the kids. Most of us mentor the kids and let them know the things they need to work on with their application. We talk with them numerous times. Many times face to face. We ask them what their parents think of their decision to apply. We ask what their parents do for a living. We ask a lot of questions. Some to discover why they lack certain activities like sports, clubs, etc. we ask if they work.

Trust me when I say, that after a couple of meetings, in person or on the phone, we get a feel if the individual has things in their lives that can help or hurt their application. If needed, we go more into it to get more information. And while I can't speak for all or even most alo's, I can tell you that Steve (flieger) and myself speak to the school guidance counselor about our kids who make it to the candidate status.

If we recognize adversity that's been overcome, we will put it in our report in some way. There's even places in the application where we will tell the candidate to make mention of it.

Yes, some applicants don't like to talk about some things. But an alo worth a crap will speak with the candidate enough times to find out if there's anything significant to mention. And the kids are generally more open with us because we aren't their parents or teachers. We are definitely a 3rd party that doesn't affect their private life. So they are usually pretty open with us. Assuming again, the alo is involved. Most are.

Is it too early for me(rising sophomore) to speak with an ALO?
 
OK, let's say you opt not to take 2 or 3 years of a foreign language, and by a miracle, you receive a nom, and then an appointment. Now, you show up at BCT and you will be ASSIGNED a language, having taken none in high school. Yeah, that's gonna do wonders for you.
You won't necessarily be assigned the foreign language that you studied in high school. I know many cadets who studied Spanish and were given Russian, Portuguese, Chinese, etc. Needs of the Air Force and all. ;)

In any case, once you learn a new language, it's usually easier to learn a 3rd. The exceptions to that are Chinese and Russian -- that whole new alphabet!
 
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