Pregnancy thread

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Maximus, Aug 2, 2009.

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  1. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    Well, I guess I'd be hated at the USNA for believing in the integrity of the rules and what I swore an oath to obey, I'll take that with a badge of honor...."sir". And I thought all those rules I was forced to follow as an enlisted Marine a hundred years ago were draconian lol
    I was right, what's good for the officers in not necessarily good for the enlisted men. BTW, I'm not talking about pregnancy either :smile:

    Quoted from Marvin7794, the USNA "Pregnancy thread "What a road we're traveling down now.

    I don't know why getting preggars is a question of honor. As someone already stated, she is still very capable of fulfilling her commitment to the Navy. It isn't like she was going to be a SEAL or a bubble head anyway, so the fact that she is pregnant will be minimally invasive to her ability to serve.
    As for holding the rules intact, people need to get real and look at the situation like a human being. The position taken by Maximus reminds me of people at the academy who are hated and have no friends. We are all human. She had sex - like a human - and had a kid - like a human. She did nothing wrong. She didn't cheat on a test, steal from someones room or lie about drinking underage. Kudos to her for working the system. Every mid does what they have to do to get by. She skated and she rated. As for her being forced to admit her condition, coercion is a fairly common tactic in conduct cases (which this is). "
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2009
  2. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    To me it is a slippery slope..i.e. she gets pregnant over winter break, @ 6 mos from grad. Does she get to stay because she has yet to give birth? She will get 30 days of leave prior to reporting, by that point she will report and go on inactive status.

    FWIW I know 2 guys that grad., comm. and married on one day and the next he was in deers enrolling his wife's children, that were under the age of 2. The only difference is he still got to still live his dream of flying.

    I am more curious about the Dad. Is he a USNA cadet?
     
  3. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Pima - the midshipman had two final exams left when the pregnancy was discovered.
    The dad is apparently a Naval Officer but what does it matter if he was a USNA Cadet or not?

    Maximus - integrity of the rules? goodness. There is no rule against sex or getting pregnant. The regulations only say that if a pregnancy is discovered the mid (or cadet) may take a leave of absence until no longer pregnant. This is because there are no provisions for pregnant females in the barracks. Pregnant women have (eventually) physical restrictions, dietary needs and medical care that is not readily accomadated in the barracks environment. This is for her safety as well as the baby's safety and it's no different than being sent home with mono.

    After the pregnancy, if either parent is a cadet or mid and they are financially responsible for the child then they may not return and must resign.
    You are making a scandal out of nothing.

    As far as rule breaking goes- please leave the room when your son starts telling stories, before you start gathering names and companies calling the Commandant to "report" the offending cadets. **shudder**
     
  4. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    JAM,

    I am aware of that, what I was stating is it becomes a slippery slope, so she had only 2 exams left, what if it was discovered during mid terms? Afterall, then she would still be in her first tri. Where is the exact line that a definitive decision is made?

    As far as the father, I was curious, because another midshipmen should realize the risks they were taking, especially he should realize that her future career would be placed on hold while he gets to move forward.

    In the end I feel for her, she is not starting her career off in a good way. If she is only 2 months along, takes her 30 days leave before reporting to her training, she is now at least 3mos. If her school is 6 mos, she will not be able to graduate from it since she will have given birth, then she has 6 weeks maternity leave, pcs's to a new base, and has to find a home and a daycare giver while reporting in. Of course she may marry the father, but that does not mean they will be assigned to the same base, or that he will not be out to sea, so theoretically, her life could be an absolute living h*ll. I really can't imagine PCSing with a newborn and reporting to my first duty station as an AD.

    BTW the Navy might put her on casual status because it is not sound to send her to school knowing she will not be able to complete it in time. Don't fool yourself she'll be known very quickly that she was the mid, whether she goes casual or direct. I am not implying that out of wedlock pregnancy is something to be embarrassed or ashamed of, just that tongues will be wagging and many will be saying what the heck was she thinking? There is a file that goes with you. Previous commanders send a personal review of you to the new commander.

    As far as the kids talking and walking out of the room, here's my philosophy, he signed on the dotted line, I didn't. I will always be his parent, but I am the parent, not the cadet, it is the cadets responsibility to decide if and when a line was broken. It is their life, not mine. I respect that fact.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2009
  5. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    the exact line is drawn when the Academy discovers the pregnancy. Hence the need for a waiver. I believe this went to Sec Nav.
    If it had been discovered during mid-terms I seriously doubt a waiver would have been granted, for the reasons I stated.


    so should a Naval Officer. *stuff* happens.

    right. of course there are other options for her - clearly she won't be going to sea anytime soon.
    I also applaud her. She is courageous. If she had opted for an abortion, this discussion would not be taking place.


    Pima - I hear you and completely agree. As parents, we just can't get all wrapped up in their rules and regulations. They know (or should know) what they are.
     
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    MHO, she had to fess up because there is a medical exam done prior to commissioning, this includes ROTC students. She could not hide it.

    In all honesty I am more curious about her due date than anything else. I was one of those women who wore her regular jeans until 20 weeks. When I was OCSC president, people started speculating that I lost our 2nd child, because when I was 5 mos pregnant I was still wearing my zip up jeans. She could have easily been 4+ mos pregnant when she came forward, which goes back to knowing at mid terms. If she knew in March, but did not say anything until May, do you believe she did not violate the honor code?

    I am not trying to slam her, she may have gone to the USNA after 1 week being late. Or she could have informed them at week 16 when she knew that she had to pee in a cup for outprocessing and commissioning.

    IF it was the latter, than I can't defend her because it seems like she was working the system, since 16 weeks would put her back in Jan., and then she would not have had the credits to grad. From what I read, the waiver was granted because she had the credits to grad.
     
  7. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    JAM, I'm not making a scandal out of nothing and you know that. You have your teeth in this one and you're on the wrong side of the issue, looking to prove some point here. The issue is breaking policy. From what we've read here, the Midn was going to try to hide her pregnancy till graduation, and you and I both know you're not supposed to be pregnant while at a Service Academy; and for many good reasons other than punishing a poor girl.
    Her honor violation IMHO is, and of course it's speculation....but, with the quasi facts given, she should have notified the Chain of Command at the first confirmation. That's the only area where you and a few others can attack me on for being 'hated as big brother', not as a sexist monster wanting the poor innocent Midn to live up to standards that I would not dream of following. BTW, I'm only discussing this topic on an INTERNET discussion board and haven't turned anyone in just yet lol

    Frankly I'm a little surprised you said that to me, I was hoping to meet you up at West Point one day on some happy Parents event and now I guess you'll be afraid I might take notes???
     
  8. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    I just hope JAM isn't a proponent of "letting things slide".

    Surely they aren't doing that at West Point these days...are they?

    I had a classmate who was appealing disenrollment the week we graduated and was disenrolled either they day of, or the day before we walked across the stage.

    She's pregnant and she's going into the Navy. I can't imagine how far behind the curve she'll fall when her classmates are doing their jobs and getting their basic qualifications out of the way....
     
  9. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    I find it fascinating how "worked up" some folks became over this.

    If she'd learned an hour after graduation that she was pregnant, nobody would have cared. If she found out during her follow-on assignment training, nobody would have cared.

    But because she found out while still a Mid'n, and did the correct thing by informing USNA...folks are upset/rankled/out for blood/etc?

    What's that say about us as a people?

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  10. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    That can be applied to MANY things...and as they say, the book is closed once you walk across the stage, with some exceptions....like drugs...



    Every cadet and midshipman has broken the rules. I know I did a few things, all conduct offenses (not honor) that I could have received the boot for. I didn't. Had I been caught, I would think that's probably what would have happened.

    At some point you have to draw a line...is that line a day from graduating, a week, a month, a semester....where's the line?

    As far as I'm concerned, if you haven't yet received your commission, they you still need to qualify for that commission. Did they Navy invest some money in that mid? Yes. Did she commit an honor offense? Not that I can tell. Where does the Navy draw the line? How far in to the pregnancy does the mid have to be?
     
  11. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    If that's the case there should be no problem. Oh, and I'm not worked up enough to lose sleep, and I expected this reaction from the usual (like clockwork) so it's a "just a fun" discussion. :biggrin:
     
  12. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    That it has happened many many times before and no waiver was ever granted leads some to believe that "regulations" are no longer regulations, only suggestions or guidelines.

    :cool:
     
  13. pedro4

    pedro4 Member

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    Any examples at USMA or AFA?

    I can only assume that they will follow suit. The deterrent effect of the "death penalty" for pregnancy is now watered down. I recall reading that USMA separated their #1 ranked cadet the week of graduation for an honor violation. Now that is sticking to your principles. I wish the woman in question well, and hope her child has a father to grow up with.
     
  14. mombee

    mombee Banned

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    The only problem with your 'fun' is that it is at the unfair expense of another human being.

    It is pure speculation as to when she got pregnant and how it was revealed. Pima, you and Maximus are assuming the worst.

    One of the primary concerns of Academy leadership is the preservation of good order and discipline. They could not have left the impression after making their decision that she had gotten away with something, scammed the system. Had events transpired as you seem to want to indicate, I seriously doubt that the Administration would have been so quick to work with her.
     
  15. SteveHolt243

    SteveHolt243 Member

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    Except the three times waivers were granted.
     
  16. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    My discussion here has no bearing on this now Commissioned Officers life. The discussion is purely speculative and if you don't want to discuss it, don't read it.

    I think this discussion has everything to do with the preservation of good order and discipline, I can't believe you actually use that statement.


    "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards out of men."

    - Abraham Lincoln
     
  17. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

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    Getting pregnant/fathering a child is not an honor violation. (It is not grounds for disenrollment at USAFA, either.)

    Being the legal guardian of a child IS grounds for disenrollment. Some cadets/mids have let their parents adopt the child or similar methods in order to be able to graduate. USAFA (and I assume USNA) allows this.
     
  18. SteveHolt243

    SteveHolt243 Member

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    Policy gets "broken" (if you want to call it that) all the time. In fact, Midregs has procedures for asking for relaxations of rules, in addition to the general "sound judgment" guidance. So you had someone asking for a relaxation in acknowledgment that the policy as outlined would cause pointless problems, and leadership applying some pretty solid judgment. Other people have had waivers to graduate before, and no stink was made. Other parents have had waivers to graduate, and no stink was made.
     
  19. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    Well Steve, I wasn't around when the few other cases happened or else I would have mentioned them, or discussed it. I'm doing so now and my opinion would have been the same, it's a slippery slope.

    And while were talking about it, should the Navy relax it's pregnancy policy totally? I wonder how many pregnant 1/C spring brides the Chapel will see with their betrothed 1/C?
     
  20. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Maximus - it appears that the opposite is true and YOU are the one on the "wrong" side of this issue. You are the one who has opposed the Department of Defense and the Navy on this. They have the details and the case file. You don't.
    You don't know anything about this case at all. Now you are accusing you of "hiding" her pregnancy. You don't know that at all.

    Sure you are entitled to your opinion but before you form it make sure it's based on fact. While you are at it - explain to the mids and grads how they are "wrong" as well.

    Right. What this issue appears to be about is a woman. The old "double standard" rearing it's ugly head.
     
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