Pregnant?
- Thread starter pedro4
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I believe a lady who works for admissions... mombee mentioned that the CNO was leaning towards this policy. It sounds a little too progressive for me
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Luigi59
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mombee never mentioned any such thing.
The Academy was founded in 1865. Probably commencing about 1866, midshipmen have bee hiding the fact that they are parents to be, parents, or even married. I guess we are on new territory here since it is slightly more difficult for a female to hide it. No honor offense unless they lie about it. Just a violation of regulations. Definitely at least a Black "N".
I just find it ironic that the argument against a one year leave of absence was the resultant immorality of a child born out of wedlock since a Graduation Week wedding had been planned. Maybe I am just old fashioned.
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Just_A_Mom
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She would raise her right hand and take an oath. Same as anyone else.
Read the articles - she did not commission as a "new mother".
To be clear - commissioning is done by the US Navy not the Naval Academy.
It's not against US Navy Policy to serve as an officer while pregnant or while a parent.
The U.S. Naval Academy was established 10 October 1845.
I guess the Navy needs to change another rule/requirement for admissions and todays semantics lol
I don't think anyone was lying, cheating, or stealing here.
I'm old fashioned, honor meant following the rules and pregnancy is against the basic requirements.
I guess it's every pregnant/caused pregnancy (their word) Midshipman for him/herself now, whatever you can get away with...
Looks like another issue with the precursor "don't dare question this" lol
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I see where you're coming from, but when you go to USNA or I'm sure any other service academy there is a stark difference between an offense pertaining to honor and one to conduct.
The "whatever you can get away with" mentality is not new and I severely doubt that it's unique to USNA. "You rate what you skate" is a saying that's been around for a while.
I don't think that the details of this case merit this much scrutiny. Perhaps this former Midshipman made a mistake or was simply careless, but I believe it's inappropriate to view this as a gross disregard for rules and regulations. She was honest and forthcoming, and I think with two exams left and only a few weeks until commissioning the decision that was made was a good one.
usna1985
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A couple of thoughts.
First, a male in my class graduated married and with a 9-month old child. He didn't bother to tell anyone, of course . . .
Given that the mid was PG at the time of graduation, USNA had two choices -- commission her or not let her graduate. If they'd chosen the latter, she may or may not have had to pay back any of her education (such decisions are individualized). Thus, she would have 99.9% of a 4-yr education and possibly owe nothing. Now, she has to serve like everyone else. Which is better?
Also, had she realized she was PG one day after graduation, nothing would have been done as that is allowed.
Not condoning her actions -- you are told the rules at USNA and should abide by them. I'm just not sure there was a better option. Also, as noted, men can father children w/o it showing -- women are not so "lucky."
One other question, HYPOTHETICALLY, if the father of that child had been a 1/C mid, should he also have been kicked out?? Just asking.
First, a male in my class graduated married and with a 9-month old child. He didn't bother to tell anyone, of course . . .
Given that the mid was PG at the time of graduation, USNA had two choices -- commission her or not let her graduate. If they'd chosen the latter, she may or may not have had to pay back any of her education (such decisions are individualized). Thus, she would have 99.9% of a 4-yr education and possibly owe nothing. Now, she has to serve like everyone else. Which is better?
Also, had she realized she was PG one day after graduation, nothing would have been done as that is allowed.
Not condoning her actions -- you are told the rules at USNA and should abide by them. I'm just not sure there was a better option. Also, as noted, men can father children w/o it showing -- women are not so "lucky."
One other question, HYPOTHETICALLY, if the father of that child had been a 1/C mid, should he also have been kicked out?? Just asking.
The USNA also had the option of sending her to the enlisted ranks, that might have sent a message to try to keep the rules in tact.
Yes, the 1/C Midn father should have been given the same options for breaking the rules. Why would that even be a hypothetical question, it's obvious.
BTW, this is all part of "integrity", following rules and commitments. JMHO
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I'm not 100% certain, but I'm under the impression that going enlisted is just an option after they have decided to separate you (either that or pay back) so that may not have sent the intended message.
I still think that it is inappropriate to question her integrity, honor, etc. The Academy does not ban having sex, but you know what? **** happens, condoms break. No one knows the circumstances of the pregnancy, but suppose that it was the result of a broken condom. MIDREGS doesn't say anything about broken condoms, but the Academy constantly encourages you to stand up for your values and to do what you think is right. If the choice was between an abortion due to an accidental pregnancy and abiding by the rules, I certainly cannot blame her for upholding her values.
We don't know the specifics of the situation and may never will so why question her integrity?
usna1985
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If USNA separated everyone who broke a rule, or even a major rule, a lot of great officers wouldn't be commissioned.
I'm not suggesting that breaking rules is good or honorable or right. But it happens. Today, many mids who are convicted of honor offenses are given a second chance through remediation. Some would argue that an honor offense is worse than a conduct offense.
As noted, for years male mids have graduated having fathered children while at USNA. In most cases, their misconduct goes unnoticed until their classmates see them at reunions with kids who were obviously born/conceived prior to graduation. Women, after a certain point, can't hide pregnancy the way a man can hide that he's fathered a child.
Here, the woman admitted to what had happened which, as noted, is more than most males do (because they can generally avoid so doing if the mother of the child cooperates). Perhaps you should consider that allowing this woman to graduate is no different -- and perhaps more fair -- than the approach taken for males who graduate having fathered a child and not admitted so doing.
Not condoning either conduct. Just saying that the fact that the woman visually appears pregnant and the man doesn't -- or that the woman admits it and the man doesn't -- is no reason to treat them differently.
I'm not suggesting that breaking rules is good or honorable or right. But it happens. Today, many mids who are convicted of honor offenses are given a second chance through remediation. Some would argue that an honor offense is worse than a conduct offense.
As noted, for years male mids have graduated having fathered children while at USNA. In most cases, their misconduct goes unnoticed until their classmates see them at reunions with kids who were obviously born/conceived prior to graduation. Women, after a certain point, can't hide pregnancy the way a man can hide that he's fathered a child.
Here, the woman admitted to what had happened which, as noted, is more than most males do (because they can generally avoid so doing if the mother of the child cooperates). Perhaps you should consider that allowing this woman to graduate is no different -- and perhaps more fair -- than the approach taken for males who graduate having fathered a child and not admitted so doing.
Not condoning either conduct. Just saying that the fact that the woman visually appears pregnant and the man doesn't -- or that the woman admits it and the man doesn't -- is no reason to treat them differently.
My sole possible concern with the situation is that she possibly was forced to admit it, maybe fully intending to hide it otherwise. Apparently, she only admitted it when hesitating the receiving graduation fleet required inoculations. But since this is also a gender based situation, my concerns are probably ill founded. Otherwise, as I stated earlier, I entirely agree with usna1985. Looking at the history of the United States, not allowing any too-soon-to-be-but-hiding-it dads to graduate, may have actually altered history. Just a speculation. However, it is, in fact, a very old issue and not all that rare. Actually there is an urban legend out there that the Academy has more statistics on this than one would imagine.
Ha, I found it. Halfway down the page:
http://homeport.usnaweb.org/scuttlebutt.html
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Maybe they (those that violate honor codes) shouldn't be commissioned and aren't in fact "great Officers", we were supposed to be talking about the cream of the crop with Honor as the paramount character trait but, I guess it's like anything else today, standards are being lowered.
BTW, I doubt anyone would disagree with the fact that male Midn's have violated the code, it's not news and they too should have the same punitive action taken. <period Punitive being the operative word there....
Honor is honor.
And perhaps parents overall aren't doing the job instilling honor that was common in the past. It is my understanding that it is those new to the Academy, mostly Plebes, a few Youngsters, that perhaps have not quite yet grasped the overall true meaning of honor, that are most often offered a second chance.
Honor itself, in lieu of a specific example otherwise, is an almost impossible admission quality to quantify. Discussion is probably the only recourse. And a dishonest candidate can BS better than the honest. So, in reality, the Academy has to accept that which is offered, and make the best of it.
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