Prep School Story

I have a problem with this article, but from a different perspective.

Yes, let's be honest the prep school is being used as a red shirt program.

Yes, our federal tax dollars pay for this school.

Now, here's my problem. The author forgot to give the flip side!
~ We all pay state/real estate taxes.
~~ Guess what part of those taxes go to? Your state college!

Colleges that have multi million if not billion dollar endowments.
~ UNC has a 2.38 BN endowment, and NC residents pay state taxes to subsidize their college.
~Penn State has over 2 BN, and PA residents still subsidize.
~ FSU has 500 million
~ VT has 550 million.

So before you sit here and discuss the red shirt program, that every college does...and every red shirt is also on full scholarship, take the time and show the real programs, where the AFA has NEVER been brought in front of the NCAA for breaking the rules like other colleges. Additionally, these athletes enter knowing that upon graduation playing in the NFL making millions is not in their future, but making less than 50k is!

My comment to the author is simple.
~ Just remember when we stop ISIS from doing another 9/11 in our country, it was those prep school students that were recruited athletes that did it! Can the author say the same thing about the recruited red shirt football player from the University of Alana!a that has a 1 BN endowment?
 
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Pima said:
~ Just remember when we stop ISIS from doing another 9/11 in our country, it was those prep school students that were recruited athletes that did it! Can the author say the same thing about the recruited red shirt football player from the University of Alana!a that has a 1 BN endowment?
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Correction: It was SOME of those prep school students that were recruited athletes that did it! They may have had SOME help from the direct admit students that were not recruited athletes, and the prep school students that were not recruited athletes, and the direct admit students that were recruited athletes.
 
aglages said:
Correction: It was SOME of those prep school students that were recruited athletes that did it! They may have had SOME help from the direct admit students that were not recruited athletes, and the prep school students that were not recruited athletes, and the direct admit students that were recruited athletes.
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+1:thumb:
 
I'm not sure if half of the NAPSters in my class graduated from CGA. Didn't we look at the graduation rates of prepsters in the past and find that the graduation rates were well below class averages.

Why is this an issue? Its a poor use of tax dollars to support athletic programs.

PIMA, state schools also have higher acceptance rates for in-state applicants. And some schools. University of Rhode Island... you might expect to get a majority of its funding from the state, but it's only 14%. That's because the states have cut contributions to state schools.

Do we need prep schools for academies? NOPE! So why have them. Why does a school with an acceptance rate of 10-20% NEED a prep school? It doesn't. We don't.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Do we need prep schools for academies? NOPE! So why have them. Why does a school with an acceptance rate of 10-20% NEED a prep school? It doesn't. We don't.
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Should we have a prep program for prior enlisted?
How about for meeting the Air Forces' goals for diversity?
 
Pima said:
Colleges that have multi million if not billion dollar endowments.
~ UNC has a 2.38 BN endowment, and NC residents pay state taxes to subsidize their college.
~Penn State has over 2 BN, and PA residents still subsidize.
~ FSU has 500 million
~ VT has 550 million.
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UNC's $2.38 billion is not only UNC Chapel Hill, but a 17-college UNC college system.

Only 17% of Penn State's funding comes from Pennsylvania (compared to 62% in 1971).
 
Usafamom2017 said:
The article states that 17 of 22 basketball varsity players and 69 of 189 football players are preppies this year. Let’s beak that down a little further. 17 of the freshmen through senior basketball players are preppies. That is just over 4 per year. For football the number would be just over 17. So for the 53 football players on the prep squad probably less than half are actually recruited.
If I recall correctly, about 180 preppies were admitted to the academy Class of 2017. That would be 15 percent of the class not one fifth.
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No idea if these numbers are accurate, but if they are then perhaps you might actually be making the case AGAINST the prep-school in it's current form...

15% total population of Prepsters at SA
vs 77% population of varsity Basketball program (17/22)
vs 37% population of varsity Football program (69/189)

If the prep-schools were not being used as a defacto Red Shirt factory, then one would expect their representation in varsity sports to mirror their total population percentage at the SAs. But if they are making up such a lopsided portion of varsity sports programs such as 2.5x or 5x higher than their broader population percentage... ... ... You can appreciate why people are asking questions.
 
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I still want to know the attrition rates of prepsters v. normal cadets/midshipmen...
 
LineInTheSand said:
No, we don't need a prep school for prior enlisted or diversity reasons.
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How would you suggest an enlisted member, out of school for 3+ years deal with entering a college environment?

Do enlisted member's belong at a Service Academy?

Does diversity belong at a Service Academy?
 
Wasn't the original intent of the Prep School to provide a means for enlisted to get into the officer ranks? I think this was right after WWII?

It wasn't until much later that the stated purpose was changed to include diversity and then later sports.
 
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We parents have been networking with social media, phone/text and in person at parents weekend, a-day and parent group meetings. Cadets talk with their parents. Here are a couple of the things being shared by parents of direct from high school cadets.

Many of those with preppie roommates during bct had problems. The top issue was being told point blank by the preppie that the high school basic was on their own when it came to bct because the preppie already had to go through this once and figure it out for him/herself. It didn't matter that the preppie knew he/she was expected to help and that the high school basic roommate was being held to a higher standard by the cadre. The cadre assumed that the preppie was being helpful, thus when the high school basic wasn't performing to a higher expectation, the cadre concluded it was because it was a problem with the high school basic. The high school basics don't speak up because they figure that they may not be believed, might be seen as a tattle tale, or that they are expected to handle everything themselves, etc. The parents remain quiet because it isn't their place to say something, the usafa knows and the kids are expected to find a way to deal on their own, or for fear speaking up could negatively impact their kid, maybe it's part of the bct training, etc. This isn't just a problem reported this year as parents of older cadets reported some of the same issues.

Note!!!!! The pre enlisted preppies and the pre enlisted direct were great. Sometimes the high school basic felt a little mothered, but those times were few, and of the eye roll category as opposed to the annoyed category.

Some Preppie kids were very cliquey. They often gravitated and associated only with other preppies, and they would only volunteer help to other preppies. If a direct out of high school basic was in a triple with 2 preppie roommates, she/he often felt excluded.

PLEASE NOTE: all preppies are not problems. There are some great ones out there. Also, I realize that feelings and impressions are not facts, but reactions to a given situation, and that a kids interpretation of a situation may be off. However, enough parents from across the country who never met before are reporting their kids, who are in different squadrons, are experiencing the same thing. So perhaps there is something to the cultural thing.

Perhaps the issue is in brining a diverse group of kids together, some who are friends and some who aren't, and as a result, it takes a while to pound out the "us" vs them into a we"
 
MombaBomba said:
We parents have been networking with social media, phone/text and in person at parents weekend, a-day and parent group meetings. Cadets talk with their parents. Here are a couple of the things being shared by parents of direct from high school cadets.

Many of those with preppie roommates during bct had problems. The top issue was being told point blank by the preppie that the high school basic was on their own when it came to bct because the preppie already had to go through this once and figure it out for him/herself. It didn't matter that the preppie knew he/she was expected to help and that the high school basic roommate was being held to a higher standard by the cadre. The cadre assumed that the preppie was being helpful, thus when the high school basic wasn't performing to a higher expectation, the cadre concluded it was because it was a problem with the high school basic. The high school basics don't speak up because they figure that they may not be believed, might be seen as a tattle tale, or that they are expected to handle everything themselves, etc. The parents remain quiet because it isn't their place to say something, the usafa knows and the kids are expected to find a way to deal on their own, or for fear speaking up could negatively impact their kid, maybe it's part of the bct training, etc. This isn't just a problem reported this year as parents of older cadets reported some of the same issues.

Note!!!!! The pre enlisted preppies and the pre enlisted direct were great. Sometimes the high school basic felt a little mothered, but those times were few, and of the eye roll category as opposed to the annoyed category.

Some Preppie kids were very cliquey. They often gravitated and associated only with other preppies, and they would only volunteer help to other preppies. If a direct out of high school basic was in a triple with 2 preppie roommates, she/he often felt excluded.

PLEASE NOTE: all preppies are not problems. There are some great ones out there. Also, I realize that feelings and impressions are not facts, but reactions to a given situation, and that a kids interpretation of a situation may be off. However, enough parents from across the country who never met before are reporting their kids, who are in different squadrons, are experiencing the same thing. So perhaps there is something to the cultural thing.

Perhaps the issue is in brining a diverse group of kids together, some who are friends and some who aren't, and as a result, it takes a while to pound out the "us" vs them into a we"
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:zip:
I would tread lightly on this one....
 
slothcannon said:
:zip:
I would tread lightly on this one....
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That isn't helpful. It doesn't address anything nor does it assist in creating or promoting a solution or in clearing up any misunderstandings, interpretations or false/misleading/incomplete information.
 
We are starting to get into the anecdotal comments here and just so we’re clear:

Anecdotal adjective, not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

While I appreciate your account couldn’t I come up with a counter story of it being a parent hearing their DS/DD complain they’re not doing good and that they have always been great at everything they’ve done so it must be someone else fault? Ask the Prep kid in your story what their view is and couldn’t they say that I’ve tried to help the kid but they just don’t get it. Could it be that?

I’m not saying that’s the case and the story is more than likely very true, but once we start talking in the anecdotal things just get carried away. People tend to feed off each other and we have a bad habit of developing a mob mentality.

I’ve been a member for a while and this topic always shows up. Is the Prep school worth it and it eventually boils down to the red shirt thing. The only person that I remember having ever given facts and research on this topic was Hornet. LITS if you want those number go search Hornet previous post you’ll find it eventually. He gave an excellent account of the data gathered and I think forms a very educated, but unpopular, opinion on the Prep School.

This is just my opinion but based on the grad rates and the percentage going into rated slots the Prep is not successful and changes need to be made. Shutting it down is not the answer but radical changes need to be implemented; not on who they let in but who they let through.
 
The OP's original article along with several others I have read present some compelling cases to reconsider how all military prep schools are being managed.

Statistics are good for aggregating a lot of data but they are impersonal. I am confident that there is a "good" outcome for every "bad" situation presented. I assume that no one would argue that there have been some great officers that came through the prep school system.

But it seems to me that looking a bit deeper at the role of these institutions is appropriate. Challenges to what seems like vague missions and execution of those mission is healthy. In fact, it is the responsible exercise of the public precisely because these institutions are taxpayer funded. Of course the way this is accomplished is by oversight by the GAO, DOD, the military branch itself, and other governmental bodies – who knows how successful those efforts might be?

A comment on the enlisted route to the prep schools: Even when we consider the opportunity for enlisted members to attend a service academy we should challenge ourselves. When these schools were started, many (most?) enlisted personnel did not have a high school diploma. In today's military, the vast majority do. That could change the need for the current model of prep school. Its worth debating.
 
AFrpaso said:
How would you suggest an enlisted member, out of school for 3+ years deal with entering a college environment?

Do enlisted member's belong at a Service Academy?

Does diversity belong at a Service Academy?
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I had a number of classmates who were prior enlisted. Some (maybe two or three), but very few, had been in the Coast Guard for 3+ years. Two made it to graduation. One didn't. Neither went through NAPS (which the Coast Guard Academy used, at the time, as it's primary prep).

Of the prior enlisted who DID go through NAPS, all had around one year or so of enlisted experience; basically boot camp and a year at a unit. As I've said, likely 50+% didn't graduate from CGA (of the CG NAPSters who started).

If you think, for a second, that a single year at a prep program is going to prepare someone who has been out of the academic setting for four years for the academy academic workload, you'd be wrong. There are certainly exceptions to that, but the vast majority have far more catching up to do that a prep school can provide. Someone who has been enlisted for a little over a year? Not so bad. If prep schools were first created after WWII, take a look at what was expected of freshman at service academies then, and then take a look now. There's much more ground to cover.

Diversity. My classmates that went through NAPS were not diverse. With a few exceptions they were black or Hispanic. And like I said, more than half did not graduate. Now, were these "diversity picks" or cadets who were athletes and happened to be black. Out of all of them, I think TWO were not athletic. TWO.

If you're losing over 50% of the students from the program one of two things (or both) is happening…. you are recruiting students who were never meant to attend an academy, or you have an academic program that does not prepare students for the academics of a service academy (or both)…..


If a prep school doesn't prepare a student or the students being offered spots are not of the variety to succeed in the academic rigor of an academy, you will find PLENTY of other candidates out there who can.

There is no NEED for a prep school today.
 
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