Letsdothis
Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2015
- Messages
- 209
Does anyone know how long it typically takes for nominations to post to the candidate portal? And then if a kid is the principal nominee (and is 3Q) how long until the appointment happens?
Principal Nomination Question
- Thread starter Letsdothis
- Start date
HopefulDad3210
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2015
- Messages
- 322
Had the same question. There appears to be no good answer.
batinhand1
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Messages
- 78
FYI...I always thought if you had the Principal nomination, it was 100% guaranteed you got an appointment as long as you were 3Q. We found out here 2 years ago that wasn't true as there were more than one who didn't get an appointment that year. I'm thinking it is really rare but just know....
Letsdothis
Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2015
- Messages
- 209
I am hoping those were outliers and the reasons for not getting an appt were not really known..... I hear what you're saying.... But we also don't know all the information. (And I will probably be slammed for saying that that). When the congressman calls and says "you're heading to USNA, that's a pretty awesome thing to hear". We are going to roll with our high for now.
Last edited:
Letsdothis I agree with you. Not sure what happened a few years ago. I think there was some redistricting and elections an outgoing MOC submitted a slate and a new MOC submitted a slate. Also a candidate might not have been 3Q either. It's a mystery we will never know! The SA never said anything officially. And agree, we never know the whole story on this forum. Although a Principal is as good as it gets, usnabgo08 points out that per the law it doesn't guarantee an appointment. I always defer to them as they are a BGO and know the rules way better than me. Generally I would say it does lead to an appointment.
5Day
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2015
- Messages
- 1,732
This is from the sticky at the top of this forum, the source is congressional Reseacrh service:
When the Member specifies a principal candidate, that individual will be appointed to a DOD academy as long as he or she meets all other admission criteria. If the principal candidate is disqualified, the service academies will appoint the first fully qualified, ranked alternate, if specified by the Member.
If qualified they WILL be appointed. Not may or should.
When the Member specifies a principal candidate, that individual will be appointed to a DOD academy as long as he or she meets all other admission criteria. If the principal candidate is disqualified, the service academies will appoint the first fully qualified, ranked alternate, if specified by the Member.
If qualified they WILL be appointed. Not may or should.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2007
- Messages
- 2,412
I specifically asked this question at recent BGO training and the response was still what I said on my other post...a principal nomination and 3Q does not necessarily equal appointment. It is good to be hopeful and I think it is the exception, rather than the rule, however the reality is USNA does not have to offer an appointment to a principal nominee. Thus, I would not be making certain assumptions with a principal nomination...assume it is just like any other nomination.
The actual law does not state that a principal nominee must be offered an appointment if they are qualified. All the law says is that slates may be submitted in three different methods, thus, there is nothing legally binding. You might be assuming that was the intent, however, the law should have been wrote, to say the above, if that is what Congress actually wanted/intended.
For USNA...here is what it says:
"Each Senator, Representative, and Delegate in Congress, including the Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico, is entitled to nominate 10 persons for each vacancy that is available to him under this section. Nominees may be submitted without ranking or with a principal candidate and 9 ranked or unranked alternates. Qualified nominees not selected for appointment under this subsection shall be considered qualified alternates for the purposes of selection under other provisions of this chapter."
As you can see, it does not stipulate that a principal nominee must be selected for appointment, if they are qualified. It is probably intended to be that way, but it isn't clear.
Compare that to this paragraph, which is well defined...it is very clear how the "national pool" must be decided:
"(b) If it is determined that, upon the admission of a new class to the Academy, the number of midshipmen at the Academy will be below the authorized number, the Secretary may fill the vacancies by nominating additional midshipmen from qualified candidates designated as alternates and from other qualified candidates who competed for nomination and are recommended and found qualified by the Academic Board. At least three-fourths of those nominated under this subsection shall be from qualified alternates under paragraphs (2) through (8) of section 6954(a) of this title, and the remainder shall be from qualified candidates who competed for appointment under any other provision of law. An appointment of a nominee under this subsection is an additional appointment and is not in place of an appointment otherwise authorized by law."
The actual law does not state that a principal nominee must be offered an appointment if they are qualified. All the law says is that slates may be submitted in three different methods, thus, there is nothing legally binding. You might be assuming that was the intent, however, the law should have been wrote, to say the above, if that is what Congress actually wanted/intended.
For USNA...here is what it says:
"Each Senator, Representative, and Delegate in Congress, including the Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico, is entitled to nominate 10 persons for each vacancy that is available to him under this section. Nominees may be submitted without ranking or with a principal candidate and 9 ranked or unranked alternates. Qualified nominees not selected for appointment under this subsection shall be considered qualified alternates for the purposes of selection under other provisions of this chapter."
As you can see, it does not stipulate that a principal nominee must be selected for appointment, if they are qualified. It is probably intended to be that way, but it isn't clear.
Compare that to this paragraph, which is well defined...it is very clear how the "national pool" must be decided:
"(b) If it is determined that, upon the admission of a new class to the Academy, the number of midshipmen at the Academy will be below the authorized number, the Secretary may fill the vacancies by nominating additional midshipmen from qualified candidates designated as alternates and from other qualified candidates who competed for nomination and are recommended and found qualified by the Academic Board. At least three-fourths of those nominated under this subsection shall be from qualified alternates under paragraphs (2) through (8) of section 6954(a) of this title, and the remainder shall be from qualified candidates who competed for appointment under any other provision of law. An appointment of a nominee under this subsection is an additional appointment and is not in place of an appointment otherwise authorized by law."
Last edited:
HopefulDad3210
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2015
- Messages
- 322
Yours is obviously the correct answer. I also saw you say in another post that the principal nom was not that significant. Given that, however, then what is the purpose of the designation? Is it just to give the MOC the ability to have some input beyond the nom itself? An expression of preference? If so, there must be at least some deference given. No? My guess is that by now you are finding this topic tedious.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2007
- Messages
- 2,412
I think the intent, as others have mentioned and my view for a long time until USNA stated otherwise and I actually read the law, is to allow MOCs to designate a candidate as the principal nominee, who must be appointed, if he/she is otherwise qualified. However, that language or language to that affect is not written into law. You would think a sentence or two would have been included if that was the intent or been defined elsewhere.
You could also interpret the meaning in the way you mentioned in your response...the slate is "just a suggestion" or preference, where USNA ultimately decides who to pick or not pick from that slate.
What is the exact intention? I don't exactly know...we would have to bring back the MOCs who signed that into law. Maybe the intent was just to make the slates a preference, where USNA ultimately picks who is qualified, but then what would be the point of submitting slates in three different ways? That's why I agree with you and think the intent is what I mentioned in the first paragraph...BUT and a big but...the law doesn't make it very clear. It just says how the slates may be submitted but not how nominees are chosen from there. I'm not a lawyer, but I can see how you can come to this conclusion.
The bottom line is that USNA has put out to BGOs that even if a principal nominee is 3Q'd, it doesn't necessarily mean appointment. I'd rather have the facts out there for candidates and parents to understand before they start jumping for joy. That's why I say to treat a principal nomination just like any other regular nomination. I think the reality is that a good portion of principal nominees will end up receiving appointments because the data used in both processes (USNA Admissions and MOC nominations) are closely aligned and that it is easy to come to the same results most of the time. But this isn't always true.
You could also interpret the meaning in the way you mentioned in your response...the slate is "just a suggestion" or preference, where USNA ultimately decides who to pick or not pick from that slate.
What is the exact intention? I don't exactly know...we would have to bring back the MOCs who signed that into law. Maybe the intent was just to make the slates a preference, where USNA ultimately picks who is qualified, but then what would be the point of submitting slates in three different ways? That's why I agree with you and think the intent is what I mentioned in the first paragraph...BUT and a big but...the law doesn't make it very clear. It just says how the slates may be submitted but not how nominees are chosen from there. I'm not a lawyer, but I can see how you can come to this conclusion.
The bottom line is that USNA has put out to BGOs that even if a principal nominee is 3Q'd, it doesn't necessarily mean appointment. I'd rather have the facts out there for candidates and parents to understand before they start jumping for joy. That's why I say to treat a principal nomination just like any other regular nomination. I think the reality is that a good portion of principal nominees will end up receiving appointments because the data used in both processes (USNA Admissions and MOC nominations) are closely aligned and that it is easy to come to the same results most of the time. But this isn't always true.
5Day
5-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2015
- Messages
- 1,732
Usnabgo08,
I am by no means an authority, I am just trying to be an informed parent who's son would love to serve our country as an officer in the Navy. Also, I don't doubt what you have been told as a BGO. But, when I read in the "Congressional Nomination Guide" that 3Q and principal = appointment, I start to question. So, the guide is not the regulation or law, so off to google and to the eCFR. But, I cannot find anything in the CRF for USNA appointments. I found sections for USMA and USAF, but nothing for the naval academy. Could point me the the CFR section for the Naval Academy, because what I have found, and copied below, seems to be clear that Qualified + Principal Nom = Appointment.
Here is what is said about USMA
CFR Title 32, Subtitle A, Chapter V, Subchapter F, Part 575 "Admissions to the US Military Academy
575.3 Appointments; sources of nominations......
(a) Congressional / Gubernatorial Nomination. (1) Up to 10 nominations may be submitted for each vacancy. Nominating authorities may use one of three methods of nomination:
(i) Name 10 nominees on a totally competitive basis,
(ii) Name a principal nominee, with nine competing alternates, or
(iii) Name a principal nominee, with nine alternates in order of preference.
(2) The priority that a fully qualified candidate may receive when considered for appointment is actually governed by the method of nomination used. For example, a principal nominee who is found minimally qualified must be offered an appointment. Conversely, the same individual nominated on a totally competitive basis, may be ranked as one of the least qualified nominees for that vacancy and, consequently, may not be offered an appointment. Many nominating authorities hold preliminary competitive nomination examinations to select their nominees. Those selected are required to be actual residents of the geographic location represented by the nominating authority.
(The bold is my doing)
Air Force Academy
Title 32 → Subtitle A → Chapter VII → Subchapter K → Part 901
§901.18 Appointment vacancy selection.
To fill a vacancy in the Vice-Presidential quota or in the quota of a nominating authority in the congressional and U.S. Possessions categories, selections for appointment offers are made according to the following nomination methods.
(a) The principal numbered-alternate method. The nominating authority indicates his or her personal preference by designating a principal nominee and listing nine numbered alternate nominees in order of preference, and the appointment is offered to the first fully qualified nominee.
(b) The principal competitive-alternate method. The nominating authority designates his or her principal nominee and names up to nine other nominees who are evaluated by the Academy and ranked behind the principal nominee in order of merit. If the principal nominee is fully qualified, that individual is offered the appointment; otherwise, the fully qualified nominee ranked the highest by the Academy is offered the appointment.
(c) The competitive method. At the request of the nominating authority, the Academy evaluates the records of all the nominees and ranks them in order of merit. The fully qualified nominee ranked the highest by the Academy is offered the appointment.
(Again the Bold is mine)
I am by no means an authority, I am just trying to be an informed parent who's son would love to serve our country as an officer in the Navy. Also, I don't doubt what you have been told as a BGO. But, when I read in the "Congressional Nomination Guide" that 3Q and principal = appointment, I start to question. So, the guide is not the regulation or law, so off to google and to the eCFR. But, I cannot find anything in the CRF for USNA appointments. I found sections for USMA and USAF, but nothing for the naval academy. Could point me the the CFR section for the Naval Academy, because what I have found, and copied below, seems to be clear that Qualified + Principal Nom = Appointment.
Here is what is said about USMA
CFR Title 32, Subtitle A, Chapter V, Subchapter F, Part 575 "Admissions to the US Military Academy
575.3 Appointments; sources of nominations......
(a) Congressional / Gubernatorial Nomination. (1) Up to 10 nominations may be submitted for each vacancy. Nominating authorities may use one of three methods of nomination:
(i) Name 10 nominees on a totally competitive basis,
(ii) Name a principal nominee, with nine competing alternates, or
(iii) Name a principal nominee, with nine alternates in order of preference.
(2) The priority that a fully qualified candidate may receive when considered for appointment is actually governed by the method of nomination used. For example, a principal nominee who is found minimally qualified must be offered an appointment. Conversely, the same individual nominated on a totally competitive basis, may be ranked as one of the least qualified nominees for that vacancy and, consequently, may not be offered an appointment. Many nominating authorities hold preliminary competitive nomination examinations to select their nominees. Those selected are required to be actual residents of the geographic location represented by the nominating authority.
(The bold is my doing)
Air Force Academy
Title 32 → Subtitle A → Chapter VII → Subchapter K → Part 901
§901.18 Appointment vacancy selection.
To fill a vacancy in the Vice-Presidential quota or in the quota of a nominating authority in the congressional and U.S. Possessions categories, selections for appointment offers are made according to the following nomination methods.
(a) The principal numbered-alternate method. The nominating authority indicates his or her personal preference by designating a principal nominee and listing nine numbered alternate nominees in order of preference, and the appointment is offered to the first fully qualified nominee.
(b) The principal competitive-alternate method. The nominating authority designates his or her principal nominee and names up to nine other nominees who are evaluated by the Academy and ranked behind the principal nominee in order of merit. If the principal nominee is fully qualified, that individual is offered the appointment; otherwise, the fully qualified nominee ranked the highest by the Academy is offered the appointment.
(c) The competitive method. At the request of the nominating authority, the Academy evaluates the records of all the nominees and ranks them in order of merit. The fully qualified nominee ranked the highest by the Academy is offered the appointment.
(Again the Bold is mine)
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2007
- Messages
- 2,412
5Day, your information is correct. It is also supports the role of the three different types of slates. But as you identified, those only apply to USMA and USAFA...not USNA. So it is true the other 2 SAs have to abide by that. But the same language is not in the USNA section. I think we all know what the intent is...but it is why I say there is nothing legally binding USNA. And if the law doesn't specifically state it (unlike the 2 SAs listed) then it isn't there!
I also should of been clearer that this only applies to USNA.
I also should of been clearer that this only applies to USNA.
Last edited:
In addition, there is another small item to think about too. USNA would be extremely foolish to NOT follow the principal nominee desires of a Congressman....... that keeper of the money, promoter of Admirals, passing authority of new shipbuilding, and granter of new and exotic weapons systems.
Thanks, 08, this indeed new info for a lot of us.
Thanks, 08, this indeed new info for a lot of us.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2007
- Messages
- 2,412
I think a lot of us (BGOs) were shocked with the debacle a few years ago. Apparently, it was enough to disseminate the information down the entire BGO chain of command. Agree with Spud and that the majority of time a principal nominee, if qualified, will receive an appointment...especially for oversight and budgetary reasons. But as I always try to do on these boards...better to err on the side of worst case than best case.
Blessedmom
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2016
- Messages
- 479
Yes I like how you put it, if a candidate is 3Q'd with MOC principal nom it would be very foolish for SA to not pick that student, that would be like dismissing the MOC judgement??
Blessedmom
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2016
- Messages
- 479
I am assuming two nom gives him double chance & on 2 slate?? I don't know if presidential weighs heavier than MOC?? But you got 2 so that is very good
.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2010
- Messages
- 15,994
No nomination is given more weight than another. The competition is on each individual slate where you appear as a nominee. Having multiple nominations helps in the same way that having multiple lottery tickets helps... just more chances to win a slate.