Promotion girl or ROTC student?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by MMM, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. MMM

    MMM Member

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    In September, my daughter, a cadet in ROTC class, participated in the ceremony of rising of the biggest US flag in our state. When we went to this site together, I found out that this flag is a part of a memorial, dedicated to the father of the owner of the real estate agency “Stars and Stripes,” located at the same site. This agency uses the US flag as a part of its brand image.
    In my opinion, this ceremony was a hardly separable blend of the promotion of that real estate agency, of the private memorial service, and of the rising of the US flag. Local newspaper did not report the event. I have a feeling that my daughter’s time was used – mostly - for the promotion of this private business, without letting her and her family know what the entire ceremony was about. So, I do not think that using ROTC students for purposes of private business promotion is appropriate.
    But this is my logic, and I’m not American. So I consider a possibility that this logic is a non-American one. I would like to figure out whether or not from American point of view such ceremonies are considered as those, where school teachers should and can call their students to participate without detailed explanation about the more-than-half commercial purpose of the event. Or, maybe, if the American flag is involved, it is not considered commercial in any case?
    Thank you.
     
  2. Marist College ROTC

    Marist College ROTC Member

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    If a local, veteran owned business, requested Cadets to participate in a memorial event, I would actively seek volunteers to fill that request. In my opinion, doing so provides good public relations for the program. If the veteran owned business is somehow able to generate customers from a ceremony that we participated in, that's fine with me.

    If the memorial event was for a veteran, I would not seek volunteers. Participation in the event would be mandatory.
     
  3. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    First, I am not sure what your real issue is.

    Is it:
    1. That it was for a business and not a govt agency, thus you believe it was for commercial purposes?
    2. Media ~~~ If the owner was trying to truly promote his business he would have contacted even the local newspaper, which would be run in a small blurb. However, it appears he didn't, thus he did not commercialize the event.
    3. Not informing prior to the event, and giving the cadet a choice not to attend?

    ROTC units do volunteer hours for the community. The ROTC commander decided that this was an event that presented dignity to the unit in the job they were performing. The ROTC commander is a commander, and the cadets report to him. That was an order, not an invitation, thus no there isn't a choice of saying yes or no. It was not an event that was political, which would have been wrong....i.e. posting colors for a candidate at a rally.

    Our sons university has all 3 ROTC branches, and each branch has their own community service that they perform (his AFROTC unit does Relay for Life and Susan G. Kohlman run), however, on top of that he has 2 more mandated events each semester. It is called clean up the stadium after a home game (for FB and BB). You don't have an option to say NO. I know the other 2 branches must do the same too. The university uses the units as free janitorial services, but the cadets know that it is the cost to be part of the community. That is something they are teaching them. They are learning that to be a leader, you need to also be a part of the community.

    I think you were reading way too much into it. He asked the unit commander, the unit probably informed your DD that as a cadet she would have mandated volunteer assignments when she signed up. This was part of her volunteer hours.

    Also, as Marist stated, for all you know the owner could be a Vietnam vet., his child could be in the military. As a realtor, in this day and age, Mom & Pop shops (i.e. this one, he isn't ReMax or C21) are very small, and the name is usually selected for a personal choice. They aren't millionaires racking in the dough, especially in this market. I would think the name Stars & Stripes, which has nothing to do with homes, was selected for his genuine pride in this country. That makes me think he asked out of pride of the accomplishments these cadets have done. He wanted to honor them too, I highly doubt he ever thought a parent would be offended or even thought someone saw it as using the cadets as a marketing tool.

    The only way I would change my opinion of not making it mandatory would be if the unit received a financial donation. In that case, it should have been all volunteer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
  4. -Bull-

    -Bull- Member

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    By some of your wording, I'm a little confused. Is she in High School JROTC or ROTC at a University?

    Lots of times, businesses or organizations will contact local organizations (JROTC, ROTC, VFW, American Legion, etc.) to do flag ceremonies since most of the time these businesses/orgs do not know how to conduct these ceremonies properly.

    Also, in my view, overall the flag may have been a big representation of this business, but I believe the part your daughter played was strictly for the flag, not the real estate agency.

    Additionally, if the program your DD is in has good instructors, most of the time they will screen events and only agree to those that fall within their criteria. (Time constraints, purpose of event, reasonable/unreasonable)
     
  5. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    I agree with many of the posters on this. Words like "memorial", "Stars & Stripes" and "U.S. Flag" are key as is the fact the sponsor called an ROTC unit and not something like the Boy/ Girl scouts. I also think that the ROTC unit's instructors can be trusted to use good judgement in making the decision to send representatives. Based on your confusion about the purpose of the event I would conceed that better communication should have taken place.

    If you daughter ever goes on active duty, let me assure you she will participate in many events: civic, local and military. She may have the honor to act as a color guard at a funeral for a veteran. You would be surprised how often units are sent out into the public to represent our country, their branch and their unit. It is an important assignment as we need the public to embrace and support the military (and vice versa).

    The military also supports select commercial entities when appropriate. For instance, active duty military are sometimes assigned to work with a movie company when they are filming a movie involving the military to make sure the branch is represented accurately and with honor. I am sure there are many other examples.

    As a side note, you mentioned that you were not an American. I would encourage you (and everyone- American or not) to read the U.S. Code, Title 36, Chapter 10. It is actually an excellent civics lesson.
     
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Great link.

    I am curious since the OP stated it was in Sept. and what I learned from the link was there are 2 days in Sept.

    I am curious if it occurred on one of these days.

    OP, we are not trying to make you feel uncomfortable. I hope as a new poster you understand it is not our intention.

    Our intention is to illustrate that the military, even in the AD world has a close connection to the community. It is not all about defending the nation. It is more about serving the nation with honor and respect from even the littlest action, such as assisting a community member by ensuring that the flag will be treated with the dignity it deserves instead of just hoisting it up on a pole.

    The RE owner in my view gets points because he could have just hoisted it up and proudly announced I have the largest flag in the state. Instead, he respected the flag and had it unfurled properly. There was no media, he didn't sell it out. Maybe he bragged about the size and named his company in the remarks, but he did it in a private ceremony. He had ROTC cadets there, but again they were not asked to be there for attention. They were requested for their experience.

    Dr. Phil has a great cliche... a pancake has 2 sides. You saw the side as a parent wondering why she was not offered the option to skip it. You saw it as self-deprecating from a business perspective. I see it as a person who understands the respect of the flag and wanted to give that dignity.

    Now if you drive by tonight and the flag isn't lit in the darkness, I am with you...it was a marketing tool.
     
  7. MMM

    MMM Member

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    I didn't provide any links, so I'm confused about your reference to the link.
    I don't remember exactly what day it was, 2nd or 3re Saturday in September.
    Thhe teacher (it's ROTC class in the high school) told kids that the local newspaper will report the event, so there were plans to attract the media. Our local newspaper often publishes articles about local businesses (that look like promotional articales), but this time it was nothing.

    "OP, we are not trying to make you feel uncomfortable. I hope as a new poster you understand it is not our intention."

    -- Thanks, I'm just asking questions because I still lack understanding of American culture especially of military and sport parts.

    "It is more about serving the nation with honor and respect from even the littlest action, such as assisting a community member by ensuring that the flag will be treated with the dignity it deserves instead of just hoisting it up on a pole."

    --- Thanks, it's very helpful explanation.

    "The RE owner in my view gets points because he could have just hoisted it up and proudly announced I have the largest flag in the state. Instead, he respected the flag and had it unfurled properly."

    --- Thanks again.

    "There was no media, he didn't sell it out."

    -- As far as I know he tried.

    "Maybe he bragged about the size and named his company in the remarks, but he did it in a private ceremony. He had ROTC cadets there, but again they were not asked to be there for attention. They were requested for their experience."

    --- This is exactly a question I have - if this is a private ceremony, should school ROTC cadets be called without letting them and their parents know what is it about? When I was told that there will be a ceremony of hoisting the biggest flag, I thought it was somewhere at community grounds and the flag is raised by some governmental entity. As a business person from different culture, I see the huge flag as a permament business sign. But I presume I can be wrong so I ask questions. And, these cadets had only couple of weeks of experience at the time of the ceremony.


    "Dr. Phil has a great cliche... a pancake has 2 sides. You saw the side as a parent wondering why she was not offered the option to skip it. You saw it as self-deprecating from a business perspective. I see it as a person who understands the respect of the flag and wanted to give that dignity."

    --- I understand this point of view and it makes me comfoertable. At least, I have guessed about the second side od this pancake!

    "Now if you drive by tonight and the flag isn't lit in the darkness, I am with you...it was a marketing tool."

    --- I will drive by soon, I'll see how the flag is treated in the night. I'll report here.
     
  8. MMM

    MMM Member

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    I don't know the owner's background, and I don't know how long ago the memorial site itself was opened. The ceremony was about raising of the flag.
     
  9. MMM

    MMM Member

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    "1. That it was for a business and not a govt agency, thus you believe it was for commercial purposes?"
    -- Yes, it's exacty how I feel.

    "2. Media ~~~ If the owner was trying to truly promote his business he would have contacted even the local newspaper, which would be run in a small blurb. However, it appears he didn't, thus he did not commercialize the event."
    -- I think he tried.

    "3. Not informing prior to the event, and giving the cadet a choice not to attend?"
    -- Not explaining that this is a ceremony at the commercial lot for a memorial dedicated to the father of the business owner.

    "ROTC units do volunteer hours for the community. The ROTC commander decided that this was an event that presented dignity to the unit in the job they were performing. The ROTC commander is a commander, and the cadets report to him. That was an order, not an invitation, thus no there isn't a choice of saying yes or no. It was not an event that was political, which would have been wrong....i.e. posting colors for a candidate at a rally. "

    --- I'm not against volunteering activities like cleaning the territory, helping local charities etc. I'm not sure that private ceremony can be considered a right cause for involving the cadets. So I ask.
    ROTC is not that commader in school ROTC class, as I presume.

    "Our sons university has all 3 ROTC branches, and each branch has their own community service that they perform (his AFROTC unit does Relay for Life and Susan G. Kohlman run), however, on top of that he has 2 more mandated events each semester."
    --- Is it a military university?

    "I think you were reading way too much into it. He asked the unit commander, the unit probably informed your DD that as a cadet she would have mandated volunteer assignments when she signed up. This was part of her volunteer hours."
    --- She is in high school, ahe has a lot to do with her academic studies, and she is not a citizen, so I'm nor sure she can be mandated to do something. I'm confused about this event because the commercial side of it was not expained to kids and parents at all.

    "Also, as Marist stated, for all you know the owner could be a Vietnam vet., his child could be in the military. As a realtor, in this day and age, Mom & Pop shops (i.e. this one, he isn't ReMax or C21) are very small, and the name is usually selected for a personal choice. They aren't millionaires racking in the dough, especially in this market. "

    --- I worked with local realters during thr homebuying process and I don't understand for what they charge what they charge. Our realtor spent with us about ten hours; if he spent the same amount of time doing the background work, his rate is $500 an hour. Too much, imho.


    " I would think the name Stars & Stripes, which has nothing to do with homes, was selected for his genuine pride in this country. That makes me think he asked out of pride of the accomplishments these cadets have done. He wanted to honor them too, I highly doubt he ever thought a parent would be offended or even thought someone saw it as using the cadets as a marketing tool."

    --- I think you are right. Maybe the attention to his business was not the idea he was driven with. Thank you for you point of view, it's a new (for me) way to think about it and it is a relief to realise that maybe the event was about honoring the flag or the veteran father or both and not about business promotion.
     
  10. MMM

    MMM Member

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    " Is she in High School JROTC or ROTC at a University? "

    --- yes, it's HS ROTC class, just one among math, science, English, etc.

    "Lots of times, businesses or organizations will contact local organizations (JROTC, ROTC, VFW, American Legion, etc.) to do flag ceremonies since most of the time these businesses/orgs do not know how to conduct these ceremonies properly. "
    --- Thanks!!! It's very important to me to know this.

    "Also, in my view, overall the flag may have been a big representation of this business, but I believe the part your daughter played was strictly for the flag, not the real estate agency. "

    -- Yes, I just was (in my mind) accusing this realtor in using the ceremony as a way to promote his business. But I felt I can be wrong in my accusations, so I'm very glad I asked.
     
  11. MMM

    MMM Member

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    "I agree with many of the posters on this. Words like "memorial", "Stars & Stripes" and "U.S. Flag" are key as is the fact the sponsor called an ROTC unit."

    --- Thank you for explaining this. I's really helpful to understand this.

    "If you daughter ever goes on active duty, let me assure you she will participate in many events: civic, local and military. She may have the honor to act as a color guard at a funeral for a veteran. You would be surprised how often units are sent out into the public to represent our country, their branch and their unit. It is an important assignment as we need the public to embrace and support the military (and vice versa)."

    --- Honestly, I will do everything to prevent her from going to active duty. I need her alive.

    "As a side note, you mentioned that you were not an American. I would encourage you (and everyone- American or not) to read the U.S. Code, Title 36, Chapter 10. It is actually an excellent civics lesson."

    --- Thank you for the advice. Whaere can I find it?
     
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Here's the link:http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

    Honestly, it is amazing you can find this site, but not google. This site is tiny, tiny, tiny. You would have to use google or mozilla, etc to find ServiceAcademyForums, but some how in your internet search you could not find The UNITED STATE CODE, TITLE 36, ChAPTER 10.


    Okey Dokey...did you just realize this is a site that we are proud and willing to sacrifice our children for the good of this nation.

    SORRY, but the I need her alive is offensive to me. Bullet and my son will be commission as an AD AD officer in MAY 2012. I guess you believe we as parents don't need him alive!

    That is what you stated to me. You need your child alive,

    Guess what she is in JROTC, SHE IS NOT REQUIRED TO SERVE. Your DD is safe.

    Why you are posting here now leaves me almost at a loss for words. I pity your DD for your one statement:
    "Honestly, I will do everything to prevent her from going to active duty. "

    You will do everything to make sure her wings never soar, Her dreams are never obtained.

    If I lose my son, an AFROTC cadet with a UPT slot, at least I know, I never PREVENTED him. I told him, I love you, this is your life, not mine.

    BAN ME... GO FOR IT!

    I cannot and will not sit idly by when my child is about to be commissioned in 6 months that the military doesn't care about the lives of every AD member.

    Over and out on this conversation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
  13. MMM

    MMM Member

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    --- I'm not sure her wings should soar in this direction. And I don't think she has a dream to serve. And I don't want army recruiters to put this dream into her brain. I want her to live freely and decide what to do with her life without advice from army recruiters. Also, I don't want her to get into a pretty difficult moral dilemma if she will be placed in a position that will require acting against her native country where a part of her family and friends live. So you can be proud of you son, but it doesn't mean that other parents don't have rights to act as they wish.
     
  14. Packer

    Packer Member

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    So you want to pick and choose the information she has available to her? Why not make sure she has all of the information to make her decision when the time comes.
     
  15. MMM

    MMM Member

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    --- Yes, I want to block some streams of info. There are "R" movies to do so, internet filters, and boxes in our school's paperwork "Do you want you child to be contacted with army recruiters?" - I can check or uncheck this box. I still have responsibility to raise her to the point when she will be mature enough to make hew own decisions. Until this happens, I don't want any intervention that can guide her to wrong - in my opinion - decisions. Besides, as I said, I don't think that she should go to serve if there is a possibility to serve against her native country.
    Someone already decided for kids that they shouldn't drink until they are 21 and smoke until they are 19, right? Why they can serve since 18? They aren't wise enough at this age and they can be trained to be anything. So I don't want for my daughter to be trained by someone except us, parents, and herself.
     
  16. Packer

    Packer Member

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    MMM, I have no interest in telling others how to raise their kids. We all try to do the best we can and hope we are making the best decisions.

    I do very little filtering of information with my own kids. I want them exposed to things while they are at home and we can talk about things rather than being exposed for the first time when they are out on their own. I want to help them become critical thinkers and good/careful decision makers.
     
  17. enived2

    enived2 Member

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    This is a very odd thread. Pima, I was offended by the "I want my daughter alive" remark also. Why is the daughter in JROTC??? Ignorance is bliss.
     
  18. MMM

    MMM Member

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    --- I want this, too. But I think joining the army is such a big decision -- it's not just life-changing, it's life-determining one -- that it should be postponed until kids become more mature and obtain good judgement skills. If she decides later to become a soldier, I will be strongly against it, but if she will really want it, she will serve. I will not be proud of the fact that she serves, if she will. I will be proud for certain actions of her, things she will do, maybe. However, I will be happier if I will be able to be proud of her for some other reasons.
     
  19. bruno

    bruno Retired Staff Member

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    OK- this is clearly not an ROTC topic. It's getting moved to Off Topic as it clearly has nothing to do with ROTC.
     
  20. scoutpilot

    scoutpilot Member

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    God, I'm glad I have parents who love and support me and take pride in my efforts and service, rather than parents who views me a project to be molded as they see fit to serve their narcissistic egos.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011

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