Pro's / Con's

Christcorp said:
One thing I have to say is; the MORE AP and IB classes you take, the EASIER the academy is. The one thing I and my son liked about the IB program, is that it's an entire program and not just individual classes. As such, ALL classes are advanced honors type classes.
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This is another item that should be stickied! (with my page long post somewhere on here about it) AP/IB courses help you prepare like none other! The more you have the better. They also allow you to skip ahead which means:

  1. Less classes overall
  2. Available time to do other classes (maybe get a minor).
  3. IMO, a better workload
 
I don't know I think if my parents made me experience freshmen life starting at home I would've chosen a path other than usafa :p


It's always nice to be prepared as much as possible though... just always remember that it is only temporary. Life gets alot better after recognition.

Speaking of which... 63 days? nice.
 
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Pima,
It sounds like your son made his decision fairly easily and never looked back. So, did I read this correctly? Did he sign his ROTC papers before or after he recieved his appointment to The Air Force Academy? If so, how did he feel when the appointment arrived? Did he even open it? It sounds like he has no regrets. I think my daughter will always wonder what if, not because she isn't happy, just because!
With appointments to Air Force, Navy, and ROTC scholarships to both and the option to just go flat out civilian.... Ahhh... It was a very stressful time for her. She had an extremely difficult time choosing which path to take to reach her ultimate goal. I don't think she returned any paperwork in until a day or two before they were due! She ultimately chose to attend the Air Force Academy and although not the most athletic one in the bunch is doing very well. She wonders what life would be like had she chosen a different path, just as she would be wondering what she missed out on had she not attended Air Force. That is great that your son is so confident in his decision of having to check the No thank you box for the Air Force Academy.
Good luck to all those who are making these same decisions. It was not fun!
My only advice,no matter where you all choose to attend school, is to enjoy the pro's and learn to deal with the con's. That is pretty much what life is about!
 
How much does the IB diploma help? Will I be able to get rid of English :barf: completely with the Higher Level test? Will I still have to take all of the placement tests despite my AP and IB scores?

Thanks:smile:
 
Depends on the class. English will take the AP tests for validation (don't know about the IB, but I would assume so). Same with Biology and Physics C.
 
hornetguy said:
Same with Biology and Physics C.
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Noooooo! I took biology last year and somehow managed to score a 5. I kind of doubt I will be able to repeat the feat if I must take a bio validation test. Physics C will be an interesting test. Studying for my first semester exam (next Wednesday), I now realize how much I need to review.
 
I think hornetguy means AP tests count as validation, am I right? No more tests for you!
 
Of course, my kids had no IB or AP, but did take courses at the local University, including Physics with lab, Calc., English Comp and Lit, and several others. They felt very well prepared but this method of instruction.
 
J.NordicSkier7 said:
I think hornetguy means AP tests count as validation, am I right? No more tests for you!
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Looks like you're right. I misread it as having to take a validation test at BCT in addition to the AP test.
 
fencersmother said:
Of course, my kids had no IB or AP, but did take courses at the local University, including Physics with lab, Calc., English Comp and Lit, and several others. They felt very well prepared but this method of instruction.
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Did they get those validated? Because that sounds exactly what I am doing.
 
Salj, our ds signed before the board released results (end of Feb). He never looked back and no, he has no regrets nor does he even wonder about it. He is loving life too much. We once asked him if he did and he looked at us like we were invaded by the body snatchers!

As a matter of fact, yesterday Bullet and I talked to him b/c he said he had an epiphany (I immediately thought okay, have you decided that you now want the AFA, don't want ROTC, don't want AF?) It was none of the above. His epiphany was that as a military child it wasn't the easiest life (9 public schools/6 states) and that one day he would do this to his own children. That being said he is now happy that we did this to him (be honest what kid likes to move and make friends over and over again) He feels that it will mkae him better prepared for his military life and how to be there for his own kids when he does it.

I truly think for our DS he was a special circumstance compared to the avg kid. He knew no other life, but the AF, and he is committed to it, but for right now he needed to take a break from it and experience life as a "normal kid". In the end if DS follows Bullet and makes it a career, he will have spent at least the first 43 yrs of his life living the AF life (He could even spend up to his first 50). Even though ROTC is not as intense as the AFA, he still has a committment to them and it is a part of his life. Not many people, very few, in the AF has that long of a relationship with the military.

So as you can see, we were concerned about him burning out, by doing what we did it really made him think about his options. He never had a desire to go towards the engineering field, even though he took all AP's and scored 4/5 in the Ma/Sci classes, he enjoys classes where it is more oriented towards, debate and ideaology (not a match for the AFA). DS wanted to be a JAG from 4th grade until his JR yr, started to get his pilots license and he was bitten by that bug. DS also realized that he wanted his collegiate yrs to be free for the most part, and not following orders. He knew that day would come soon enough and he was in no rush for it. Finally, DS saw through his DAD that you can have a successful career without being an AFA grad, which was the real reason he never looked back. He is very committed to the AFROTC det and understands that he can't rest on his laurels, but it also is not as demanding as the AFA and that added into his deciding factor.

We have no regrets, we could have let DS sit back and put the AFA on top without ever showing him the core courses he would have had to take, without forcing him to clean his room, go work out and everything else. However, if Bullet and I were honest, we would tell you that our DS would have probably been miserable and most likely one of those 25% that didn't make it through.

I might be Janie Rain Cloud, but I wish alot of people saw the AFA for what it truly is and not the illusion. It is hard and only those that get the fact of what will occur will make it through. This is why Bullet and I have the utmost respect for these kids, they do not have a "typical" college experience, but they love what they are doing...for them it is a match, but I bet ea cadet there knows at least 1 kid that has dropped out. My question is why? (I am talking about those that are not med) I would bet alot of money, it is b/c they didn't realize how hard academics would be, or that they hate being in such a rigid schedule. In our last town, a 4 dig came home at xmas and told the folks I hate it and I want out...folks convinced to bear through it until Mar and see if things changed. He is now at UNCCH in AFROTC.
 
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buffalo said:
Looks like you're right. I misread it as having to take a validation test at BCT in addition to the AP test.
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;) True. Chem requires both the AP/IB test and validation (unless you rock the validation tests). Math and language require the validation test. Physics can be done with either the C exam or validation test here.
 
I might be Janie Rain Cloud, but I wish alot of people saw the AFA for what it truly is and not the illusion. It is hard and only those that get the fact of what will occur will make it through. This is why Bullet and I have the utmost respect for these kids, they do not have a "typical" college experience, but they love what they are doing...for them it is a match, but I bet ea cadet there knows at least 1 kid that has dropped out. My question is why? (I am talking about those that are not med) I would bet alot of money, it is b/c they didn't realize how hard academics would be, or that they hate being in such a rigid schedule. In our last town, a 4 dig came home at xmas and told the folks I hate it and I want out...folks convinced to bear through it until Mar and see if things changed. He is now at UNCCH in AFROTC.
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Nailed it! I have seen many people leave. It's more normal to me now. Being a 2 dig is nice since most of my class will still be here when I graduate, but, I still watch the lower two leaving here and there.

I think the biggest shock for most is the academics. No one wants to believe that the typical school in this country that they are acing with no problems will not follow at USAFA. I consider myself lucky that my high school was well above the average in difficulty which made acclimating here much easier. That's not the case for many. So many people will try to emulate their high school academic habits until the Academy finally says, "look, you haven't figured out that what you're doing doesn't work, sorry, but good bye." Probably the greatest reason for 25+% drop out.
 
"but I wish alot of people saw the AFA for what it truly is and not the illusion. It is hard and only those that get the fact of what will occur will make it through."

I have to totally disagree with your statement. It wasn't long ago that most knew nothing about what they were TRULY getting themselves into. My husband is a prime example. He had NO idea what lied ahead. The stories he tells of his I-Day are amazing. He had no clue. Our son, who is at the Naval Academy, had internet, a father, an Uncle, DVD's, as resources, but still had no idea what it would really be like until he was there. I don't think it is anything anyone can fully be prepared for.

Also, I am really confused here. You post a lot about pro's and con's of attending the AFA. I thought your husband went to the AFA. From your last post it sounds as if he did not. Also, you have stated that your son decided to accept his AFROTC scholarship over attending the AFA...Did he ever get an appointment to the AFA? That makes a big difference. It is much easier to make a decision when there isn't really one to make. I don't mean to be rude, but if this is the case, your posts are very misleading. I apologize if I am wrong. Please clarify.

Sometimes I feel as you are trying to talk kids out of the AFA. I had no idea if my daughter would make it through basic yet alone the academic year. I would have NEVER discouraged her from giving it a try. (and I am not saying you discouraged your ds from trying) In my opinion, everyone who is offered an appointment deserves the chance to give it a try. Are some going to leave? Yes. Kids leave colleges all over the country. No news there. Looking back, the AFA would not have been my first choice for my daughter, but I would have never even suggested that. She did make it through and actually did extremely well academically. I am glad she gave it chance.

"I bet each cadet there knows at least 1 kid that has dropped out. My question is why? (I am talking about those that are not med) I would bet alot of money, it is b/c they didn't realize how hard academics would be, or that they hate being in such a rigid schedule. In our last town, a 4 dig came home at xmas and told the folks I hate it and I want out...folks convinced to bear through it until Mar and see if things changed. He is now at UNCCH in AFROTC."

What? Kids drop out of every college. I bet each college student knows of someone who has dropped out or changed schools. What is your point? I bet a lot of kids drop out of any college because it is too hard or there is no schedule and they just can't seem to get their act together.

I am sorry, but the decision to attend a service academy should be no different than anywhere else. If your family has no money and that is your sole reason for attending so be it. Will you be an officer upon graduation, Yes! My husband loved being a Naval Officer, but he chose to leave after his commitment time and recently retired from the reserves. Two masters later, he is on his third career.

Don't steer away from the AFA because you are afraid you won't like the routine or the academics might be too hard and you might not make it. Anyone who receives an Appointment can make it if they want to. The Commandant at the Naval Academy told us at an orientation several years ago, that if our children WANT to make it, they will. The academic assistance available and student teacher ratio are among the best at the service academies.


And by the way, the AFA is not an illusion, it is REAL!
 
Salj; I can appreciate and understand a lot of what you say here. I can't really say that I agree with some of it though. I don't believe that Pima was trying to say that a person SHOULD know what they are getting into prior to applying to the academy; or that they shouldn't apply. What was trying to be conveyed; at least the way I read it; was that it would be nice if the applicants knew more of what they were getting into. The truth is; a child of an active duty military mom/dad has a much greater understanding of what the academy and a military life is all about. Reserves/Guard (kids)/JrROTC/CAP have somewhat of an understanding. Those who had the opportunity of attending Summer Seminar have a little bit of understanding. Those who think they do because of a tv show, movie, or someone they spoke with who spent a night at a Holiday Inn Express, probably know very little. The point was; it would be NICE if they knew more.

You did say something however that really caught me off guard. You said: "the decision to attend a service academy should be no different than anywhere else". Sorry, but that is simply wrong. The academy is nothing like any other school. To try and compare it, it totally illogical. Now, certain aspects such as the difficulty of academics can be compared to an Ivy League school; or the similarities of IC athletics being compared with other NCAA schools; is quite understandable. But college is not just going to school and taking classes. College is a culture and a life all it's own. The academies are no way similar to any other school. As such; deciding to attend an academy should NOT be considered the same as attending any other school. Are there some that attend the academy or enlist on active duty purely for the free college education and for no other reason? Of course there are. Are there those that IF they had better choices, would have chosen that over the academy? Yes there are. But those are rare. The academy is too competitive. If you have the grades to be accepted to the academy; there is a real good chance that you were, or could have been, accepted to other colleges. And there's a real good chance that many of those schools would have or did offer scholarships.Very few if any kids go to the academy because they had NO WHERE ELSE TO GO.

Having said this; the academy SHOULD be your 1st choice of colleges. It should NOT be your choice because they are the only one that accepted you and are paying the bill for you. Again; if you are good enough to get accepted to the academy, then you got accepted to another school. The #1 reason to attend the academy should be to ultimately become commissioned and serve your country. Whether it's for 5 years or 20 years. There's nothing wrong with having other motives like the education, medical benefits, travel, training, etc... But the #1 reason should be serving your country.

But I don't agree that applying to the academy is the same as applying to any school. That's wrong. I would also say that any kid who got accepted to the academy; and tried to convince me that they are ONLY THERE because the academy was the ONLY school that accepted them or that they could afford; I would say they are blowing smoke. The process of applying to the academy is a 1 year process. You can apply to a college; find out if you've been accepted; and how much of a scholarship they are offering; all in less than 60 days. Besides the academy; my son applied to 5 other schools. In less than 60 days; (Prior to being accepted to the academy); my son found out he was accepted to all 5 schools with full ride scholarships to 2 schools; a 75% scholarship to the 3rd school; and the last 2 schools telling us to call them and lets talk. Considering the academy appoints the majority in march; I would say anyone saying the academy was the ONLY place that they could get into, is WRONG.

P.S. Many applicants DO have an delusional impression of the academy. Some come in only seeing the glory of a fighter pilot. Or traveling to exotic places around the world. Some don't see going to certain parts of the world with 105 other military members/friends/co-workers; but coming home with ONLY 98. Or leaving your dorm in Saudi Arabia and coming back later and it's GONE and there's stretchers of military friends/co-workers/etc... who won't get to see their family again. Yes, some do see the academy and air force in a non realistic way.
 
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Although Pima will chime in later, Bullet is not a USAFA grad. His son is now at the same university his father graduated from.
 
OK, it seems to me that this thread is going down a slippery slope closer into the flame-war nether regions, so let me try to straighten up some points, provide some perspective, and hopefully nip this all in the bud.

Salj, I hope you will see that Pima was not trying to be mis-leading, only trying to pass on some advise from our years in the service and from what we've seen here on numerous occassions. Please allow me to also add my thoughts on what occurred in my son's case and why we say the things we say...

First, I am NOT an AF Academy Graduate. Haven't even been to C. Springs. Neither has Pima. So, can we state "your academy experience will be like this." Frankly, no. But if you look at ALL the threads and posts we've added to this site, you won't find that quote from us. Usually, our quotes are along the lines of "your AF CAREER will be like this." Very different situation, and something both of us have AMPLE experience with.

Now, I suppose you're asking "then what gives you the right to even post on here?" Well, we found this site a couple of years back when our son starting his application process. The fact that he even was considering the Academy blew us away! Talk about out-of-left-field! He never showed any interest before, and it was totally unexpected. So, we did what hundred of other parents did -- we researched the internet and found this site. LOTS of great advise on the academy and the application process.

But there was always this nagging fear in the back of Pima's and my mind, we worried our DS was doing this for me and not for himself. Was he really interested in the AF and the Academy, or was he trying to live up to my life as a career officer and flyer? For me, it was simple, the AF was something I've wanted snce I was a kid. We never heard the same enthusiasm from him as he was growing up. So, we did what we felt a good parent should do -- we gave him THE FACTS and asked for his reasons. The academy life is unlike any other college experience, for both some good reasons and some not-so-good reasons. We made him understand the ups and the downs. And I'll admit it, we pestered him on his reasons for wanting the academy, and more importantly the commitment in the service it entails.

After weeks of pestering (I'm his dad, it's my perogative to do that if I want to :shake:), the truth finally came out: "I want to be an officer, and I want to fly." Our answer: "So, is the Academy something you want just as much?" He continued being truthful to us (shocking, I know!), "No, it's just a the best garauntee that I can get both." (which, in fact, it is. He ain't dumb, that son O' mine :smile:). We then asked, "So, if you could have it, what would be your real dream life?", to which he replied "to go to XXXX (hint: Not the academy, but to the same state school I went to. Don't get me started on my next thought: "Great! Again, he's trying to follow in my foot-steps!"), then to go on to the AF. I'll do the Academy, but it's really not the type of education or college experience I want." Our next step was to take him to the school he really wanted to go to, and see if he could achieve that dream. They were truthful to him as well. Chances to fly out of ROTC? Well, not as good as at the Academy, but still pretty darn good if he put in the effort, kept his nose clean, and had good grades. He actually walked out of that meeting smiling! And with his acceptance letter already in hand, we walked out of the ROTC offices and straight to the Bursers office and paid his tuition down payment. We still hadn't heard from the Academy on his acceptance status at that point, and when the letter came in the mail two weeks letter from C. Springs, we tried to hand it to him, and he just said: "That's nice", turned around and went back upstairs, letter still in my hands. He made the choice on his own, and has never regretted it.

Perhaps your next question is "then why are you still here?" Valid question. You see, we made friends here, and saw that our experiences in the Service and the advise we gave about those experiences were important to those young kids here looking for answers. And quite frankly, that SHOULD be the ultimate goal for everyone: not the path to get to a service career, be it Academy, ROTC, or OTS. But the ACTUAL career itself. Even moer alarming to Pima and I was what we sometimes observed here: young people infatuated and enthralled by the Hollywood image of the glamorous fighter pilot life-style. No understanding of the commitments and sacrifices that get you to that "glamorous" life, or how hard it really is to get there. So, we provided some perspective, and more importantly, we provided the TRUTH. DOes the truth hurt sometimes? You betcha. But these kids deserve the thruth. It's not all sunshine and lolli-pops, and the Academy demand A LOT of commitment and dedication. Some will be shocked by this and fail. Some will thrive, and it sounds like your children are in that category. They sound like great kids, and you SHOULD be proud of them.

So, sometimes Pima and I may come off as "glass half empty" kind of people when we burst a bubble or two here on these forums. So be it. We also see the value of the truth we preach. But more importantly, we want these kids to walk into this situation with their eyes open: they need to know, just an inclining, of what they are getting into. And the REAL truth? The Academy life is NOTHING in comparison to active duty. Now that is tough! And I'm sure you and your husband can attest to that as well...
 
Excellent post Bullet. I for one am glad you and pima are on this forum. You bring a lot of insight to those exploring a military career. And I guess I am another fellow bubble popper. I just like to see applicants applying for the right reasons. Not because their parents talked them into it. Not because it's a pseudo free education. Not because of the prestige of saying you are going to the academy. Too many have made it to those doors and regretted being there. Even on day one. I can't say it enough times. The Air Force academy should NOT be your GOAL. It should be a means of REACHING your goal. And the goal has to start off with getting commissioned and serving your country. How or in what capacity; e.g. pilot; is secondary. I never thought my son would want a military career. He was born at TJ Spain. Spent a few moves before I retired. But it is something he's mentioned since Jr. High. So, good for him. Great post again Bullet. later... mike...
 
Why would your goal be the AFA? Being an officer is the cool part :thumb:
 
salj,

Welcome to the forums. It sounds as if, with a husband, son and daughter all having gone to at least two different academies (USAFA and USNA, that right?) you can add another perspective based on at least three different experiences. That means more AD experiences, too. Thanks for chiming in! :thumb:
 
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