Pro's / Con's

To me though, the best advice on a SA forum, comes from those with direct academy connections. When ALOs, DodMerb people, academy families, and especially cadets themselves post, they offer the best answers because they have seen academy life first hand or have direct info from the academies. Their info is usually spot on.

We all know there are pro's and con's to all the choices our kids have these days. I would hope this USAFA forum continues to be a great place for Air Force Academy discussions. I believe there is an ROTC forum, and actually a forum for all service academies. Also, there is College Confidential which includes a huge list of just about every college in America. Thank God we have so many choices and places to get our questions answered! I have no idea what people did before the internet!

Excellent posting to keep posters on track.
 
Off topic for a second...CC I am with flyersboy how could you ever get bounced from CC...did you say something on the parents threads:eek:
 
I guess I am going to toss my $.02 worth in the ring here ...

I think everyone agrees that open eyes are important for those accepting a SA appointment. They are equally important for those accepting any scholarship be it a SA, ROTC or even a sports scholarship. No one wants to hear about anyone to dis-enroll from anywhere. That being said, dis-enrollment occurs at all SA’s, colleges & even with ROTC scholarship recipients & sports scholarships.

In the interest of ensuring applicants have their eyes open, I bring this up because this topic reminded me of a situation I know well. Hopefully someone with more recent information on how AFROTC scholarships are awarded will verify if they are still handled in this way. If they are no longer handled like this, then it may be a moot point.

I know of examples of several ROTC cadets that later dropped their scholarships. There are any number of reasons including grades, friends, other interests, or even poor major choices. Because AFROTC scholarships are major specific it is of extreme importance that an applicant be sure to apply for a major they really want because it can be very difficult or impossible to change (& still keep the scholarship). Six years ago it was nearly impossible to change majors & retain the scholarship. I personally know of an AFROTC scholarship recipient, & have heard of several others, that had been awarded a full scholarship (tuition/room/stipend/books) for a specific major. Back then when applying for an AFROTC Scholarship you designated major on your scholarship app. I don’t know if you still apply for them that way.

After a year in the major the student realized they cannot envision their life in that career field & returned the scholarship which resulted in the return of all funds expended to date (in this case, after one school year I recall it to have been nearly $40k expended between tuition, books, housing, stipend - don't remember the exact # but it was big). I have heard rumor that although this can still occur, a student may no longer be obligated to reimburse all scholarship monies paid - but I’d want to verify that! Scraping together that kind of money was extremely difficult for that family. Not only do students in such situations have to find financial aid for future years (for which they did not apply) they also have to figure out how to pay these funds back.

I share this because there are very real life decisions being made by both SA & ROTC recipients. What this story shows is not only to be sure you have the right major but more importantly, no matter where you end up (SA/ROTC) be ready for the unexpected. There are consequences for decisions. These types of situations are rare - but they do occur in almost all areas of life. Be ready for the unexpected & prepare for that which you can prepare. Make sound decisions based on thorough research and well thought out conclusions. If you do your homework & want a SA then apply, get accepted and give it your all. If you decide you want ROTC (or anything else) then do it. The key is research what you are planning & make an informed decision.
 
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christcorp, I didnt know you got booted from CC, lol. From your posts on SAF it seems like you would be the last person booted from any forum

To make a long story short; I didn't get booted off for anything in the military/academy forums. It was in the "Parents" forum. But that is another story. No regrets. I prefer to hang in the military/academy forums anyway. Most of the people who I chat with know where to find me. It's cool. later... mike.l...
 
Haha ok nice, I like this place better than the CC forums anyway, but don't tell them that
 
Sometimes candidates need a little "tough love."

Let me give a few examples:

1. Basic Cadet X came to USAFA because his father wanted him to. He was qualified and able. However, by day 2 of BCT he realized this was not the place for him. He spent the next 4 weeks fighting (over the phone) with his father and completing the outprocessing work. Meanwhile, he was miserable and dragging the entire flight of basics down with him. He did not know what was ahead of him and went along with his father's wishes.

2. Cadet Y came to USAFA to be a college football player (with NFL aspirations as well). This particular person had ego issues. He knew what he (thought) he was great at, and did not want to undergo what everyone with other goals had to do. Obviously, this didn't sit to well with the leadership or many of his peers. His heart was elsewhere. He outprocessed before Thanksgiving break of 4 degree year.

3. Cadet Z wanted to be a fighter pilot. He almost glowed when he talked about anything aviation related. He wasn't a bad leader, and had the "right" attitude...except he realized he didn't want to get there through USAFA. He outprocessed during his 3 degree year.

I'm betting that at least 2 of these cases could have gone differently, if they had known more about the academy. If they had a better idea of the reality of the academy (the bad and the good), I don't think they would have accepted their appointments. If someone had been able to communicate these things, they might not have suffered/declined the college they wound up going to.



Of course the opposite happens as well...
Another cadet absolutely knew he wanted to be an AF officer. He didn't go to Summer Seminar, didn't visit the academy, didn't even know it was on the side of a mountain...I'm not sure if he knew it was in Colorado Springs...The academy wasn't even his first choice...but nothing was going to stop him. He is currently on Wing Staff, doing well in all areas of measure to the academy, and happy. (Sure, he had a few setbacks and struggles along the way, but that never stopped him!)

Sometimes you just don't know who is cut out for USAFA...
 
Some of you guys should write a book about the academy you sound like inspirational speakers or something =) :wow:

Guys as in people not boys I've gotten yelled at in english for that
 
In many ways the people who contribute to these boards already have. Between the Applicants, Cadets, Parents, and ALO's the SA and CC boards are the modern day equivelant of the Modern Candidate Book. :thumb:
 
"You only go b/c it is the only thing you ever wanted to do...and not for any other reason, which includes becoming a pilot or for a free education."

Wow... This is the first time I am posting but I have been lurking for a while. I feel I need to say something here because I feel a bit intimidated reading Pima's post--it is pretty scary stuff and I thought perhaps someone should hear the "kid's" perspective. I have an AFA appointment in hand and an LOA and nom for USNA--I am anxiously checking my mail and feel very, very fortunate. A service Academy Education and Officer Commission to serve my country is my first choice, however, two years ago an SA was not EVEN on my radar, let alone "the only thing I ever wanted to do." This decision was one made after a family visit and an inspiration that stayed with me. The process of applying was daunting for sure but so were my apps to the other first tier schools--some of whom I have yet to receive notification of admission. I have had candidate visits to both Navy and Air Force and have friends at both SA's. During my CVW to USNA the plebe I stayed with and several members of the brigade staff were very clear that they too had reached their conclusion about where they belonged after a rather short journey and and I thought it interesting that the admissions committee reps who spent a great deal of time speaking with the candidates and parents emphasized that they look very carefully at those who say "I have always wanted to do this" because just as often (if not more) those sentiments are a reflection of family history, pressure or a childhood dream that may or may not be reality.

I have done all that I can do get the "real" picture. Yet I know that NOTHING will prepare for the reality of the SA--but nothing prepares one for the reality of life in the university setting either. It is all about what YOU do to commit to either challenge. The resources and support are there, you have to utilize them and WANT to succeed. And, at the end of the day, if you decide that you are not destined to be an officer there is no shame in walking away if the fit is not the right one. The system works the way it is meant to work.
My mother is on the admissions staff of a very selective public university. The average "attrition" rate at the end of freshman year is about 25%. The latest stats I looked at said that USNA graduates 87% of their mids. Pretty good odds I would say.
So, come spring I will most likely be a very lucy, lucky young man and have a an exciting choice to make. I will be going in with my eyes as open as they can be, however I AM taking a chance, hoping for the best, and YES probably glorifying the experience just a bit because to me that is part of the pride and commitment of the challenge and adventure I am about to take.
 
Time for the Moderator Speech

Hello Everyone,

I have been following this thread, and to this point haven't stepped in because no one had broken any rules of the forum. I truly believe in letting the USAFA forum run it's course of discussion without interfering.
However, based on the number of PMs that I am getting, I felt it was time to say something.
This section of the forum is for getting, giving, and discovering information about the United States Air Force Academy. Most of you know that I have a 2011 cadet at USAFA, which gives me an insight into the Academy, but far from the whole picture. I know that there is a lot of info that I do not know.
My cadet is very happy at the Academy, has done very well, and makes me very proud.
The point to many of the PM's that I have gotten is that much of the information being posted on this thread has more to do with ROTC than the Academy, or is a comparison of the two. There is also a sense among the readers that there is a agenda promoting ROTC over USAFA. Whether this is intended or not, I can't say.

So here is what I will ask of all of you:

First, do not take anything said in these forums as a personal affront to you or your child; Everyone has an opinion, and it may or may not be the same as yours.
Second, if you are posting, please keep in mind what your area of knowledge is. If you know a lot about ROTC, then look to see if your post would be better off in the ROTC forum. If have a DoDMERB question, ask it in the DoDMERB forum.
Third, remember that everyone has the right to post in any forum. If you have any questions about a posting or the intent behind it, please try to PM the poster and ask for a clarification before you get angry/upset/PO'd.
As always, I am here daily reading the posts. I try to post infrequently, since I know many of you have much more experience than I do. Any time you have a question or concern, please feel free to PM me.

Thank you for your time.
Stealth_81
 
Congratulations downstater5!

It sounds like you have exactly what it takes to commit to any challenge. You are so right when you say that the resources and support are there if you utilize them and WANT to succeed. What a great kid. You were able to decipher all these posts and come up with such a logical view on the decisions you will be making in the next few months.

Best of luck with the remainder of your decision making process. And, if your goals change during the next few years, I am sure there will be a new and wonderful challenge waiting for you.

Beat Army!

That is all we are allowed to say at my home now that my daughter has jumped ship and gone USAFA!?

I am glad you posted some more attrition statistics. Interesting.
 
Thank you stealth. A good dose of reality for all posters and readers is needed once in a while. Downstar and others; please when reading posts (Especially mine); try and find the spirit of the post and not always the "Letter of the law". One of my biggest faults is being long winded. Both verbally as well as written. I do this in my attempt to ensure that others understand my point and don't interpret something I didn't mean. Unfortunately, in a world of forum posts and threads, we can't always read the non-verbals in a post. Somethings we take it totally different than it was meant.

I can definitely understand how a statement like; "You only go b/c it is the only thing you ever wanted to do...and not for any other reason, which includes becoming a pilot or for a free education."; could seem rather direct. But having served for 20+ years in the air force, having a son at the academy; having helped others find their place in the military; and so on; it isn't as cut and dry and it may sound. It was basically a metaphor. Obviously, there are a lot of reasons people apply to the academy or join the military in the first place. Hell; back in my day; people actually did join the military because there was NOTHING else for them. Some prior to me even chose the military because "LOCAL POLICE" had indeed given them the choice of the military or going to jail. I met 2 people in this category. However; the quote you mentioned above is all about passion. It's about knowing that there are many benefits and advantages to an academy education and military service. But, even with all those benefits, having the passion to serve your country is the ultimate selfless reason. That isn't to say that you can't think about all the benefits of such an education and life style and include those into your decision. Of course you can. I didn't just join the military because it was the ONLY thing I ever wanted to do. I also looked at all the benefits. Obviously, that helped make the decision easier for me. Especially in a time when the military was not a very popular place to be.

So I guess the way I would suggest to those interested in an academy education, is to definitely look at all the benefits of such an education and military lifestyle. But to remember that the ultimate responsibility of a cadet and future air force officer is "Service Above Self". In other words, your ultimate purpose for being a cadet and future officer is to defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. And that you ultimately are there to defend it's people who aren't serving. If you are willing to do that, then by all means take advantage of the great benefits of an academy education and military lifestyle. It's simply a matter of the glass being half full or half empty.

HALF FULL: I want to serve my country. In return for such service, they will give me an Ivy League education; medical/Dental benefits; training; decent pay; travel; etc...

HALF EMPTY: I want a somewhat free education. I want a secure job and pay after graduating. I want other benefits. IN RETURN; I am willing to give 5 years of my life to the military.

Neither way is wrong. There is still EXACTLY the same amount of water in the glass. It's just a matter of how you perceive the military. The military tends to instill positive attitudes. You realize after a while how short life can be. Therefor, it is very common to have a positive attitude. I.e. WANTING to do something instead of HAVING to do it.

It's simply a matter of perspective. If you aren't sure exactly what a person writing a post meant; the easiest thing to do is ask. Don't assume. Don't comment back with any preconceived opinions. Simply ask. If you don't want to post such a question; then PM the person directly. It's cool. No one here bites. Best of luck to you. Later... mike....
 
I really didn't expect a response, and did not need clarification regarding anyone's statement-but now I really am a bit confused. I thought sharing my experience might help someone else who felt uncertain because they did not have a lifelong dream of attending an SA. I wanted to let people know that in my case it does not make me less passionate or motivated. As I emphasized I was just attempting to respectfully share one appointees perspective. I am not sure what question I was supposed to ask. If I offended anyone I apologize--I re-read my post and I truly cannot find anything out of line. Please note this qoute from my post "A service Academy Education and Officer Commission to serve my country is my first choice, however, two years ago an SA was not EVEN on my radar, let alone "the only thing I ever wanted to do."" Hope that clarifies the fact that we are definitely on the same page......I just wanted to illustrate that there are different ways to arrive there, and as you pointed out--they are all okay.
Thank you for all of your wisdom and advice!
 
I don't buy the "only ever wanted to do." I had a classmate like that. He didn't last. He was in love with the idea. Some people don't have the exposure, or did not have the understanding.

I did not have a clear understanding of service academies until early in my senior year. I was at one time looking at Army ROTC, switched focus, 9-11-01 happens, and opted for a service academy. I went, graduated and received my commission. I would say that I have not met many people who "have always wanted to", although that is a wonderful pipe dream to believe that is the only reason to go, and for no other reason. Something tells me there are some admirals and generals walking around that can attest to that as well.
 
Downstate and Line; I agree with you. And that is exactly what I said. You don't have to have had a "Life Long" desire to attend the academy in order to want to apply and attend. And thereafter become a commissioned officer and serve your country. I don't understand what you might be confused about. In my half full/empty glass analogy; I specifically said that not matter what direction you approach an academy education, it isn't wrong. As long as understand what the #1 priority of that education is. To become commissioned and serve your country. That's pretty simple. You'd be surprised at how many people make comments like: "This isn't what I thought it's be like" (Meaning all the MILITARY discipline and such). Or when I was playing in the sand box, hearing people active duty/guard/reserve saying something like: "I didn't sign up for this".

The point is; it doesn't really matter when you decided that you wanted to apply to the academy. And it doesn't really matter WHY you decided to apply to the academy. As long as you realize what is expected of you if you do attend the academy and your responsibility after graduation. Obviously, the attitude and direction in which you come to the decision to attend the academy will affect your success and level of tolerance. But that too isn't important. What's important is that you know what you're getting into; you're true to yourself of WHY you are getting into it; and that you're willing to live up to your responsibilities at the academy and after graduation. That's all that's important. later... mike....
 
Maybe I misread then, that's not what I originally took away from that, but I agree for the most part with that.
 
I propose that we look at Christcorp's profile, copy and paste his posting history into a word document and finally publish it as a book called "Everything you will ever need to know about the Air Force Academy... Period". Any takers?:shake:
 
Will you have been officially nominated for the job...ANYBODY want to second it?:shake:
 
Ha! A similar book already exists but what a nice compliment to Christcorp!:smile:
 
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