QNS Letters have started going out

[MemberLG]

yessir, I will probably re-apply.

The MOC told me personally he felt I had the strongest file but he has no military experience so decided to send the vacancy choosing to WP, and he said he expected me to get it...Sadly I didn't. It bothers me they base SO much on SAT scores. I get my new scores back tomorrow (prev. 580 670 580) but I'm pretty sure thats why WP picked the other candidate. I met him...I have about 8 inches in height and 50-70 lbs on him but its about the file and not the candidate it seems. haha I was hoping my varsity football experience and I told them I was going to walk-on but I guess that didn't add! hopefully something can happen and I can come back from QNS to picked up or something but I don't have much faith in that.

If you are going to reapply, suggest that you retake the SAT (perhaps taking a prep cours) even if you will attend a college.

Personally, I don't like the focus on SAT/ACT scores, but based on the limitations of West Point, it works. Like it or not, can't give individualized attention to over 10,000 applicants to determine their true academic abilities. There are some cadets with low SAT scores that excel at West Point academically, but they are the exceptions.

I know many great candidates that will give 110%, but no amount of desire or effort can over come the fact you only have 24 hours in a day. SAT/ACT is a good indicator of your academic foundation. I believe academic is #1 reason for cadet separation. Wth a heavy academic load and required activities, a cadet with a weak academic foundation and that falls behind academically will be in trouble.

 

[Luigi59]

There are many things that some Division 1 athletes bring to the table that translates very favorably to WCS points. It is these athletes that USNA seeks.

The two-tiered admissions system has already been documented and proved at USNA, let's hope that WP never follows.

'Best and brightest'? Academy's admission of minorities, recruited athletes comes under scrutiny

The Annapolis Capital newspaper on Sunday published a significant investigative piece on admissions at the U.S. Naval Academy, adding new voices and fresh statistics to the ongoing debate over whether the service academy routinely lowers its exacting entry standards for minority applicants and athletes.

The Capital reviewed academy records and found that the school admits students with SAT section scores as low as 370, although its standard cutoff for white non-athletes is 600.

"The unfairness is absolutely real," a former admission board member told the Capital, one of several the paper quoted anonymously.

 

[scoutpilot]

The two-tiered admissions system has already been documented and proved at USNA, let's hope that WP never follows.

'Best and brightest'? Academy's admission of minorities, recruited athletes comes under scrutiny

In the parlance of our times...OH, SNAP.

I guess that's good for football. Not good for much else.

 

[scottgd]

Just a Mom: why is "varying" geographic background important to the readiness of the Army? I get the arguments for the importance of racial, gender, ethnic, etc. diversity, but why Geography? How is your home town important? Is an xrace, ygender applicant from one city preferable to the same race/gender (but with much higher SAL evaluation), from another city? I don't get that.

I suspect Academy self-preservation is at the root of it. If the vast majority of cadets were say from Alabama, Mississippi, and Texas. I doubt the rest of the country's taxpayers would be willing to fund it.

It's very similar to when the DoD buys a big ticket weapon system. It trys to make sure as many congressional districts as possible are somehow involved in making it. Makes it harder for Congress to vote no.

 

[Mongo]

The two-tiered admissions system has already been documented and proved at USNA, let's hope that WP never follows.

I think most would agree that the interpretation of raw FOIA data by an uninformed individual with questionable motives would not define policy. With that said, I would bet that USMA’s policy for the selection of athletes is no different than that of USNA.

 

[scoutpilot]

I think most would agree that the interpretation of raw FOIA data by an uninformed individual with questionable motives would not define policy. With that said, I would bet that USMA’s policy for the selection of athletes is no different than that of USNA.

Exactly what needs to be interpreted about an SAT score in the 300s?

 

[Luigi59]

I think most would agree that the interpretation of raw FOIA data by an uninformed individual with questionable motives would not define policy.

The Annapolis Capital newspaper reviewed the data - try again. One or two is an anomaly. Numbers like the ones below indeed define policy.

• 48% of fully qualified white males for the Class of 2014 were offered appointments. 88% of fully qualified AA males for the same class received offers.
  
• 61% of fully qualified white females for the Class of 2014 were offered appointments. 97% of fully qualified AA females for the same class received offers.

THAT is a two-tiered admissions POLICY. Race is DEFINITELY an admissions factor at USNA.

The data is there, spin it away with red herrings and ad hominen attacks.

USNA Admission Statistics by ethnicity for the classes of 2012-14

 

[Mongo]

• 48% of fully qualified white males for the Class of 2014 were offered appointments. 88% of fully qualified AA males for the same class received offers.
  
• 61% of fully qualified white females for the Class of 2014 were offered appointments. 97% of fully qualified AA females for the same class received offers.

Discussed in this thread, specifically around my post # 13:

http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=23935&page=2

USNA discussions should occur in another thread.

 

[GoArmyBeatNavy]

The Annapolis Capital newspaper reviewed the data - try again. One or two is an anomaly. Numbers like the ones below indeed define policy.

• 48% of fully qualified white males for the Class of 2014 were offered appointments. 88% of fully qualified AA males for the same class received offers.
  
• 61% of fully qualified white females for the Class of 2014 were offered appointments. 97% of fully qualified AA females for the same class received offers.

THAT is a two-tiered admissions POLICY. Race is DEFINITELY an admissions factor at USNA.

The data is there, spin it away with red herrings and ad hominen attacks.

USNA Admission Statistics by ethnicity for the classes of 2012-14

Looks like Navy is being very successfull in their goal of a diverse student body.

I wonder what the performance of these QUALIFIED and admitted Cadets are: graduation rates, retention, promotion to 0-6, etc. It is important to consider this in this debate since the purpose of the Military Academies is to provide officers for the services. The African American graduates I serve with in the Army, Navy and Marines have been top notch. Of course I have only been in 10 years, so that is only a sample size of a hundred or so since graduation, so I only have allegorical evidence. There has to be studies out there about this.

Not saying that you do not have a point. But the interpretation is that race can be a factor:

Military academies are tight-lipped about their affirmative action policies, Seitz said. But, based on General Accounting Office reports and congressional testimony, she has concluded that they consider race one of many factors influencing admissions decisions and do not assign any specific weight to minority status. The University of Michigan Law School’s affirmative action program is similar.

Schools can use race as one admissions factor, “to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body,” according to the Supreme Court decision regarding the University of Michigan Law School. But policies that are not “narrowly tailored” and systematically grant minority applicants a quantifiable advantage violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, the Supreme Court said in a separate decision striking down the University of Michigan’s undergraduate affirmative action program. The undergraduate school universally awards applicants from under-represented racial backgrounds with 20 points on a 150-point scale used to guide admissions decisions.

No red herring, you are definately correct. Just not saying that it is wrong, especially according to the Supreme Court (or at least Justice Sandra Day O'Connor )

Congress could easily change this with a law if they viewed it as either not effective or not politically advantageous. There must be support out there in America for this not to be challenged (of course, the press would probably blow a challenge to minority admissions at the SAs out of perspective).

 

[Mongo]

Exactly what needs to be interpreted about an SAT score in the 300s?

Probably via NAPS. Probably a Verbal score. The primary reason for sending non-priors to NAPS is for those students who score low on SATs but perform well academically. Some students do not test well, especially on standardized tests. First generation Americans from non-English speaking homes do not score well. A multitude of reasons. Being a BGO in the rural South, I have seen many 3Qed white male non-athlete candidates with sub 600, even 500, SATs and some were even offered appointments. Some of these same individuals also applied to and were accepted by WP. I trust the system in that there was a very valid reason and it was not explained in the FOIA raw data.

 

[oldcorpsdad]

Ok, this whole thread has started to digress, but I agree with SCOTTGD above. As it is now, cadets come from every congressional district. Every member of Congress gets a say and has constituents at the Academies. Every district has grads that return to the community and contribute. Republicans, Democrats, they all have the opportunity to provide visible constituent services to their electors through the Academy process. There have been many attempts to eliminate the Academies. As it is distributed now, that is not seriously going to happen. Their budget goes up and down, but its probably not going away. If you made it to the best qualified, there are areas of the country and populations that would dominate the rolls. The way it is now brings a cross section of the population from across multiple demographics. Its not perfect and exceptional candidates sometime don’t get selected. And truthfully, I had classmates who ranked way below me academically and in other areas at the Academy who passed me by in promotions years ago. In the end, the system isn’t perfect, but it works.

 

[MemberLG]

Probably via NAPS. Probably a Verbal score. The primary reason for sending non-priors to NAPS is for those students who score low on SATs but perform well academically. Some students do not test well, especially on standardized tests. First generation Americans from non-English speaking homes do not score well. A multitude of reasons. Being a BGO in the rural South, I have seen many 3Qed white male non-athlete candidates with sub 600, even 500, SATs and some were even offered appointments. Some of these same individuals also applied to and were accepted by WP. I trust the system in that there was a very valid reason and it was not explained in the FOIA raw data.

We lack facts to have a meaningful discussion.

Yes some students score low on SATs but perform well academically, so if we have access to the high school transcript we can confirm or deny your theory. But we don't have it.

The point about first generation Americans from non-English speaking homes is invalid. Many cases first generation Americans don't meet the citizenship requirement to attend SA. Did you meant say second generation Americans? I know of some SA grads that immigrated to US when they were young, but don't know any of older age (this will be 1.5 generation). I think the youngest will be around 12 or and oldest will be around 17. I believe the minimum residence requirement is 5 years for naturalization. When parents become naturalized citizens, childern under 18 are naturalized. If you have to naturalized individually, 17 + 5. 18 +5 will be pushing it.

I think I know the reasons why certain candidates gets accepted when they appeared to be less qualified than some other candidates. But I am not naive enough to believe that only the best qualified candidates get accepted by SAs.

 

[Mongo]

We lack facts to have a meaningful discussion.

My point exactly. Neither did the Annapolis fish wrapper. My speculation is as valid as those who are drawing negative connotations from theirs.

The point about first generation Americans from non-English speaking homes is invalid. Many cases first generation Americans don't meet the citizenship requirement to attend SA. Did you meant say second generation Americans?

I actually was just giving an example. Candidates from homes where English is not the language of choice often score lower on the verbal portion of the SAT.

I think I know the reasons why certain candidates gets accepted when they appeared to be less qualified than some other candidates. But I am not naive enough to believe that only the best qualified candidates get accepted by SAs.

Anything beyond comparing the most qualified candate from one Congressional to one from another "We lack facts to have a meaningful discussion." So long as the SAs closely guard the actual WCS process, which they will, there will always be speculation. And speculation leads to the unsupported assumptions such as are being made in this thread. Maybe WP folks are more astute than those associated with USNA and will nip these rumors in the bud before they escalate to the Annapolis Capital level.

 

[Luigi59]

The primary reason for sending non-priors to NAPS is for those students who score low on SATs but perform well academically.

Explain how 40 of the 60 members of the D1 lacrosse team, students that graduated from such prestigious schools such as St Albans, Gilman, Boys Latin et al, went to NAPS.

I suppose we are to believe that student aplicants who attend a $25,000 per year exclusive college prep school cannot qualify academically to USNA?



Nothing but a red shirt athletic program and a backdoor to a two-tiered admissions system.

The data is available for those with their eyes open.

 

[MemberLG]

. . . Anything beyond comparing the most qualified candate from one Congressional to one from another "We lack facts to have a meaningful discussion." So long as the SAs closely guard the actual WCS process, which they will, there will always be speculation. And speculation leads to the unsupported assumptions such as are being made in this thread. Maybe WP folks are more astute than those associated with USNA and will nip these rumors in the bud before they escalate to the Annapolis Capital level.

We could have qualifed speculations as some posters have decent amount of knowledge and experience with the admissions process.

Least for me I have interviewed the candidates, have interview them again as a member of the MOC noinmation panel, and have access to the admissions office database to compare with other candidates.

A word comes to my mind - transparency.

 

[Mongo]

Explain how 40 of the 60 members of the D1 lacrosse team, students that graduated from such prestigious schools such as St Albans, Gilman, Boys Latin et al, went to NAPS.

The coach responsible for this is no longer at the Academy and his departure probably had something to do with this. Not to say that Admissions checks and balances should not have prevented it. But, for many, he was a very likeable guy. I would bet that the practice has ceased.

My understanding is that when the new coach cleaned house, many of those dropped could not even make the existing club team.

 

[scoutpilot]

Explain how 40 of the 60 members of the D1 lacrosse team, students that graduated from such prestigious schools such as St Albans, Gilman, Boys Latin et al, went to NAPS.

I suppose we are to believe that student aplicants who attend a $25,000 per year exclusive college prep school cannot qualify academically to USNA?



Nothing but a red shirt athletic program and a backdoor to a two-tiered admissions system.

The data is available for those with their eyes open.

Whenever the data is plainly ugly, you can just ignore it and say "we can't understand it" or "we need more."

 

[MemberLG]

. . .

I suppose we are to believe that student aplicants who attend a $25,000 per year exclusive college prep school cannot qualify academically to USNA?

In some cases, yes.

Some kids attend those exclusive college prep schools because their parents can afford to pay $25000 a year.

Some kids attend those exclusive college prep schools because they are athletes. A younger brother of one of my friends received a full scholarship from McDonough to play lacrosse.

I have seen SAT scores from non-athlete candidates from those schools and some of them sucks.

 

[Luigi59]

In some cases, yes.

And in many others, no.

How many back-door admissions are necessary before a claim of "foul" is initiated?

A younger brother of one of my friends received a full scholarship from McDonough to play lacrosse.

FYI - MIAA schools are forbidden from offering athletic scholarships.

 

[MemberLG]

. . . My understanding is that when the new coach cleaned house, many of those dropped could not even make the existing club team.

The new coach might have cleaned house, but I think it's a business a usual. If you check the different lacrosse website, there is a Div I committment tracking. Several juniors (which will be class of 2017) shows up committing to Navy.