question about validations

Discussion in 'Naval Academy - USNA' started by navy_clarinet, Jul 9, 2007.

  1. navy_clarinet

    navy_clarinet Member

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    i know this is a little early but...

    most of you guys know i'm going to NAPS, not for academics, but for physical preparedness. i know that every napster must take calc, physics, lit, and chem.

    i have taken ap courses in 3 of these- chem, lit, and calc. i passed all three exams, making a 3 on chem and, i just found yesterday, a 3 on lit and a 4 on calc. once i get to USNA, i have a high enough score to validate out calc I. i would really love not to take the equivalent to calc I three years in a row.

    does going to NAPS cancel out any opportunity to validate using ap credits?
    i mean, almost all napsters are for academic issues, right?

    anyways, my mom asked me about it after we found out my scores from this year and i was wondering if you guys knew anything about it.
     
  2. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    When you arrive at NAPS you will be given placement tests in physics, chemistry, and calculus and placed in a class commensurate with your abilities. There are three basic levels. You will be challenged.

    I am not sure about English. However, the focus of NAPS English is on writing, therefore it is not imperative that you be in a classroom of equals.

    USNA does not use AP validation for any of these courses. One day, during plebe summer, when you are at your most tired, most stressed level, you will be herded into a nice cool classroom and given Naval Academy specific validations tests. How well you do on these tests determine USNA placement.

    My understanding is that ALL NAPSters are there for academic issues.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2007
  3. peskemom

    peskemom Member

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    USNA69...on the subject of AP validations at USNA...Last year I know my Plebe had several courses validated on the basis of AP - and that included at least one semester of Calc since she passed her AP Calc BC course. Yes, she also took math validation at USNA but they told her they counted her AP score. She also got credit for her AP government test - and she didn't have to take a standard Plebe class for that. She ended up in advanced calculus which was really 2nd semester sophomore year math and 1st semester junior year math level stuff. She also got AP English credit to the point that she took more advanced English as well.

    There is an up side and a down side to having Plebes validate alot of the heavy math/science courses. It frees your schedule up for alot of future additional study, including graduate-level courses while still at USNA. However for that Plebe year - you end up having killer classes, competing with older mids with -by comparison to you- ALL the time in the world to study. You as a Plebe have literally many nights NO time to devote properly to class study and so you may find yourself performing poorly in classes that in you were taking them simply in the 'normal' life of college, would ace. The challenges for Plebes to learn to maximize their time juggling is enhanced when you have to do this.
     
  4. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    From the latest catalog:

    peskemon, as you will note, for most primary courses the USNA validation test is the primary means of determing placement. I suppose during the faculty advisor counseling, AP scores could come into play but the validation test is the primary means.

    Momentum is a wonderful thing, especially among the elite of our young people. To ask one of these motivated intelligent midshipmen to take an unnecessary course just to make for an easy plebe year is, to me, irresponsible. I always, with very few exceptions, recommend that they take the highest level course possible.

    My son checked in plebe summer intent on validating a year of chemistry and a year of calculus. He did. I think Physics was voluntary. He did not sign up for it. They forced him to take it. He slept through the test and did not answer a single question. Second day of class he realized he was bored to death. Talked to the prof. Prof said "I have been expecting you." Asked him to do two problems on the board. Next day he was in Modern Physics. Graduated with honors in Aero.

    Stay motivated and stay challenged. You can handle it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2007
  5. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    This is exactly the double edged sword a West Point Regional Admissions officer posed to my daughter about validating classes.
    For some it is a terrific opportunity, if you are on the edge - it may be better not to validate - esp Math and science which are cumulative.

    I suspect you daughter validating Calc based on her AP exam is that she did very well on the BC test which is basically Calc II.

    USNA69, I disagree - I don't see Peskemom as being irresponsible at all. This is a individual thing. Plebes come to USNA with different academic gifts. For some, taking a plebe class is better than validating and getting a C+ in an advanced class - especially in the math, science and foreign language where learning is highly cumulative.

    Navy Clarinet, I am sure you will do very well at NAPS academically. You will be in an even better position to validate classes when you get to USNA. I would think that your progress at NAPS and the grades you get there will count for a lot more than your AP scores will at USNA.
     
  6. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    The validation tests determine what they know. These tests have been around at least 42 years and have been fine tuned such that a plebe will not be placed in a class in which they do not belong. This is why the Academy relies on these tests. If a midshipman validates, he has the Academy stamp of approval based on many years of data that he can excell in an advanced course. By nature of the courses validated in the basic three; English, calculus, and chemistry, validation still means the student is in a class composed mostly or entirely of his peers.

    Yes, Foundation and NAPS students are a special case. Their teachers are the experts and they should depart their prep school with an understanding of where they should be placed.

    My statement is for the 1350 average SAT high school grad who has taken AP Calculus, English, and Chemistry. They are wasting their time.

    Another thing which comes into play here is focus. These kids leave high school as outstanding in everything they do. At USNA, they will make a choice: Academics, sports, or leadership. Very few are able to excel in more than one, and even less (or is that fewer) in all three. Five years ago I was at BGO training. For our formal dinner, all the stripers that were around for the summer were invited to dine with us. There were approximately a dozen of them. EVERY SINGLE ONE WAS A LIBERAL ARTS MAJOR. The leadership and athlete routes will normally achieve a lower GPA and a B or even C+ grade which, in turn, has allowed them to take a slightly lesser course load over the remaining years will, in the long run, prove more beneficial.

    Maybe irresponsible in addressing peskemom's quote was a little overboard but I will continue to counsel to strive to be the best, strive to excel, strive to push oneself constantly. No one has ever come back and told me I was full of crap.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2007
  7. xchefmike

    xchefmike Member

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    straight from the goats mouth

    The following is from the website cut and pasted with no edits. and yes there are validations for AP tests.
    hope this helps
    http://www.usna.edu/acdean/candidateinfo/USNACourseValidationPolicy.htm

    USNA Course Validation Policy



    Most validation occurs during plebe summer but a few midshipmen validate upper level courses at other times. To be considered for validation of any course, a midshipman must have had equivalent college level experience elsewhere. Automatic validation for high AP or IB test scores is indicated below. Validation may also be achieved by good performance on the plebe summer validation tests listed below.



    Department
    Validation opportunities during plebe summer
    Validation requirements for upper level courses


    Division of Engineering and Weapons


    Aerospace Engineering
    No validation tests are administered during plebe summer.
    Interview, test

    Electrical Engineering

    Mechanical Engineering

    Naval Architecture, Ocean,

    and Marine Engineering

    Weapons and

    Systems Engineering


    Division of Mathematics and Science
    Interview, test

    Chemistry
    Tests administered for Chemistry 1 and Chemistry 2. Biology AP=5 or IB>6 validates Biology 1.

    Computer Science
    No validation tests are administered during plebe summer. “A” or “B” (taken prior to 2004) AP >= 4 validates.

    Mathematics
    Tests administered for Calculus 1 ("AB" AP>4 validates), Calculus 2 ("BC" AP>4 validates) and Calculus 3.

    Oceanography
    No validation tests are administered during plebe summer.

    Physics
    Tests administered for Physics 1 and Physics 2.


    Division of Humanities and Social Sciences


    Economics
    Test administered for Introductory Economics. Micro+Macro AP>8 validates.
    Interview, test

    English
    Tests administered for English 1 (AP=5 or IB=7, Literature or Language, validates) and English 2.
    Syllabus,

    History
    No validation tests are administered during plebe summer. European History AP=5 in validates.
    transcript, and

    Political Science
    No validation tests are administered during plebe summer. American Government AP=5 validates.
    interview

    Language Studies
    Tests administered for French 1&2 (AP>3 validates) and French 3&4 (AP>4 validates).

    Tests administered for German 1&2 (AP>3 validates) and German 3&4 (AP>4 validates).

    Tests administered for Japanese 1&2 and Japanese 3&4.

    Tests administered for Russian 1&2 and Russian 3&4.

    Tests administered for Spanish 1&2 (AP>3 validates) and Spanish 3&4 (AP>4 validates).
    Interview, test


    Division of Officer Development


    Leadership, Ethics, and Law
    No validation tests are administered during plebe summer. Introductory Psychology AP>4 validates.
    Syllabus, transcript, interview


    Division of Professional Development


    Seamanship and Navigation
    No validation tests are administered during plebe summer.
    Interview, test


    Last update: June 14, 2007
     
  8. xchefmike

    xchefmike Member

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    p.s. there are formatiing issues

    sorry that was a spreadsheet that did not paste well go to the website and you will see.
     
  9. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    I was at a briefing in the Fall of 2006 where this exact discrepancy betweem the dean's spreadsheet and the USNA catalog was discussed. For English, chemistry, and calculus, we were told that the mandatory plebe summer validation tests were the primary means of determining placement.

    These tests are being administered as we speak and AP course grades for seniors are probably not all out yet.

    The general promulgated rule is to show up plebe summer expecting to take the tests. There are probably exceptions if they happen to get an AP Calculus BC 5 report before the test is administered.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2007
  10. NativeTexan

    NativeTexan Member

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    Last year the AP scores were sent out the end of June - Son's score report was dated June 26th. When we talked to him at the first phone call he already knew what his AP scores were and what were being used for Validation's.

    He validated via AP scores Calc II so was placed in Calc III (there were only 81 Plebes placed into Calc Three - that was told to us at PPW) The Calc III section for Plebes are set up with only Plebes. Any course that you see on your kids course schedule or grade report if the course number is followed by a P indicates that that section is for Plebes Only. That was true for Calc III, his section of Diffi Q's and his section for Western Civ. second semester.

    His European History AP score used to validate 1 semester of Western Civ., and then also had high enough scores to validate English 1, Biology, and 4 semesters of Spanish. He validated out chem. 1 and chose not to take the physics exam even though his Physics C AP score was high, given the number of courses he had validated his advisor and the physics department were fine with that decision. The best thing is that the Academy will not place you in a class that is not appropriate, nor as a plebe with youngsters and they will listen to you if you have concerns about validating too much. They really do not want to see Plebes in over their heads. :smile:

    During PPW take parents should take the time to visit all of the department displays in Alumni Hall. It is a chance to visit with faculty, learn about different programs, send the first e-mail to their .....@usna.edu account, and even see their test scores if you want.
     
  11. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    Thanks Tex, One last question. Was he required to take the USNA calculus and English validation tests at all?

    Looks like I will have another change request for the catalog.
     
  12. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Native Texan -

    Are you saying the Academy had the scores the end of June? Or did you get them in the mail at home the end of June?
    We haven't gotten any AP scores here is PA - they stagger the mailings, we probably won't get them for another week.
    I think the schools may get them earlier though.
     
  13. NativeTexan

    NativeTexan Member

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    usna69 Yes he took the Calculus I exam, when he got to the Calc II exam was told he did not need to take based on the AP scores. English I don't know and he is off camping so cannot ask.

    The score report I have at home is dated June 26th (2006) - he is class of 2010. I seem to remember it arrived right after the 4th - Our phone call last year was the Sunday after the 4th - just like this year - when I went to tell him his scores he stopped me as he already knew them and knew that he had validated Calc II through AP scores. He did not take AP spanish so his 4 semester validation was based on the Academy's Spanish validation tests.
     
  14. navy_clarinet

    navy_clarinet Member

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    STOP!:biggrin:

    i don't mean to be a pain, but you guys have completely ignored my question. i seem to have only began a debate about usna's policy of even using ap scores.

    usna69- i don't really want to talk about it all over again, as we have already had this discussion, but apparently on rare occasions, candidates are sent to naps for physical problems. if i could show you my profile, you would say that there was nothing wrong academically.

    i know that for entering plebes, if they have passed the calc ab test with at least a 4 they can validate calc I.
    i am also very aware of the courses i am going to be taking at naps next year.
    i'm sure there will be some challenge, but i'm looking for this year to challenge me to become more physically ready for usna.

    my question... since i am a napster, will my ap scores from high school be considered for validation my plebe year?

    not to look down on my fellow napsters, but i'd be willing to bet there aren't many who enter naps making an 'a' in ap calc and a 4 on the exam. i'm sure this question doesn't come up much.

    alright, sorry for the interuption in the debate, i was just hoping someone with a few more connections than myself could dig up the answer that i seem to be unable to find.

    just-a-mom-i found out my ap scores a few days ago by phone. i could hav found out last week if i really wanted to know sooner. i'd be willing to bet the schools have the reports long before we do.
     
  15. navy_clarinet

    navy_clarinet Member

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  16. USNA69

    USNA69 Banned

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    nav_clar, I am sending you a PM as to why I think you are not the average NAPS candidate.

    I think I answered your question on my initial response to your original query. At NAPS you will be placed in classes commensurate with your current abilities. Your gain in knowledge over the ensuing year will superceed your AP placement and you will then be tested again for Academy placement.
     
  17. Just_A_Mom

    Just_A_Mom Member

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    Navy Clarinet - lets try this again ---

    Literature - you got a 3 so you have to take the validation test - you won't validate based on your AP -

    Chemistry - you can't validate based on AP test. You have to take the validation test. Since you will take Chem at Naps - this should help you to ace the validation test though.

    Calc - you got a 4. If you were going to USNA then yes you would validate Calc I (I take it you took the Calc AB test) - you will take Calc again at NAPS. If I were you I would find out if you would be taking Calc I or Calc II at NAPS. I would think they would have Calc II there for you and you could possible validate Calc II - then your AP score would be a moot point.
    If you have to retake Calc I then AP won't matter either as you should easily validate Calc I with the test. The only question will be do you have to take the validation test - that is a year away - too soon to worry.

    My daughter is in a similar position - she is going to MMI - took AP Calc and AP Physics. She will take Calc there but don't know if it will be Calc I or Calc II or if she will get both.
    She is awaiting her AP scores - for some reason here in PA we are among the last to get them. We could have called but I don't feel like giving the College Board any more money than I have to! I know of a kid going to Pitt and as of yesterday his school didn't have them either.
     
  18. navy_clarinet

    navy_clarinet Member

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    just-a-mom,

    i already talked to usna69 about this, but i'm sorry i sound so annoying, i appaerntly missed the answer in the discussion about validations. thanks for the help.



    oh, and i totally get the not giving college board anymore money. after taking the sat's 3 times and paying for 2 of my ap exams this year, they definitely have a little stash of our money growing in their pocket. :smile: i have not received my scores by mail though. i know that they had an inviladated test at my school and those students were told they wouldn't get their scores until the end of july. that could be true for my entire school, and even perhaps your area.
     

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