Race/Ethnicity and Admission

[Memphis9489]

However, I don't believe USNA admits one candidate over another based soley on ethnic or racial characteristics.

I'll agree with that; but only because you chose to use the extreme word "solely".

Would you agree with this less extreme statement:
"USNA frequently admits one candidate over another based on ethnic or racial characteristics"?

Your statement makes no sense because it would have to include those instances where one particular minority candidate is admitted over another minority candidate. I think we would have to assume that such a decision is based on relative merit.

One way of trying to debunk an argument is to take that argument to ridiculous extremes. Almost everything breaks down if looked at in that manner ... ergo, your choice of the word "solely".

 

[MakeItHappen]

I'll agree with that; but only because you chose to use the extreme word "solely".

Would you agree with this less extreme statement:
"USNA frequently admits one candidate over another based on ethnic or racial characteristics"?

Your statement makes no sense because it would have to include those instances where one particular minority candidate is admitted over another minority candidate. I think we would have to assume that such a decision is based on relative merit.

One way of trying to debunk an argument is to take that argument to ridiculous extremes. Almost everything breaks down if looked at in that manner ... ergo, your choice of the word "solely".

The statement makes sense, some just don't understand it.

As far as banter back and forth, the mods have spoken.

Really, the Fleming/race topic is something that doesn't lend itself well to intelligent dialogue on an internet board. I'd love to share a beer and talk at length sometime.

 

[Mongo]

Would you agree with this less extreme statement:
"USNA frequently admits one candidate over another based on ethnic or racial characteristics"?

No.

Using race, color, or creed as a determination is in violation of federal law and therefore would be illegial.

 

[Mongo]

Really, the Fleming/race topic is something that doesn't lend itself well to intelligent dialogue on an internet board. I'd love to share a beer and talk at length sometime.

I am not sure that would be any better. A year or so ago, he published some SAT results for one of the classes showing a wide disparity between minority and majority class members. He didn't realize that the results also included those who had attended NAPS and that when the two groups were separated, results were pretty much the same. We emailed back and forth quite extensively. He was too focused on his agenda to be able to recognize the facts. "Direct appointments" is a term the CGO uses for those coming directly from high school. He wanted to use it to describe some make-believe group that did not have to go before the admissions board. I would totally discount him. Statistics as interpreted by an English professor can be humorous.

 

[Memphis9489]

Using race, color, or creed as a determination is in violation of federal law and therefore would be illegial.

Which begs the question - Why do college application forms (not just the service academies) even ask this question? If it's illegal to use this as a basis for admission, then why is the information even useful to the admissions board?

Wouldn't all this controversy go away if the admissions board was unaware of the candidate's ethnicity?

You would think there'd be some kind of law preventing this. I'm no lawyer - so I don't know. Clearly, it's not illegal or they wouldn't be doing it. [usna1985 - aren't you a lawyer? Maybe you can educate us.]

It's kind of like asking, on a job application - Do you have any dependents with a pre-existing medical condition that would require expensive attention by company-paid insurance?

I fully appreciate that this is not a desired topic amongst the moderators. My participation in the discussion was never to argue that the academy does not get good people -or- that the admissions process is flawed; simply that ethnicity is a factor in admission. Nothing more. To say it is not insults everybody's intelligence.

I can see where this topic would be a matter of natural curiosity (and concern) to an applicant - especially those non-minorities who are seeking admission from an intensely "diverse" region. After all, the topic has received national attention. Unquestionably, there has been a paradigm shift in recent years. I don't see how that can be ignored.

The answer seems to be: There is nothing you can do about your ethnicity or where you live - so there's no point in worrying about it.

The original post was ...

How big of a roll does race/ethnicity play in the admission process? What is the difference between an African-American applicant, a White applicant, and an Asian applicant?

I don't know whether cylee1208 is a candidate or just some lurker into the forum. If he/she is a candidate - it's a fair enough question.

I also think it's fair to say that it does play a role. How much of a role can be debated ... but not here, apparently.

I'll agree to that.

Peace!

 

[aglages]

I don't know whether cylee1208 is a candidate or just some lurker into the forum. If he/she is a candidate - it's a fair enough question.

I believe s/he is an applicant of Korean descent.

 

[Luigi59]

You would think there'd be some kind of law preventing this.

There is for the USCGA, right in the US Code:

TITLE 14 > PART I > CHAPTER 9 > § 182

§ 182. Cadets; number, appointment, obligation to serve

(a) The number of cadets appointed annually to the Academy shall be as determined by the Secretary but the number appointed in any one year shall not exceed six hundred. Appointments to cadetships shall be made under regulations prescribed by the Secretary, who shall determine age limits, methods of selection of applicants, term of service as a cadet before graduation, and all other matters affecting such appointments. All such appointments shall be made without regard to the sex, race, color, or religious beliefs of an applicant.​

No such law governs the appointments of Midshipmen to USNA.

In fact, the evidence from Professor Fleming says the exact opposite:

"Yet, as I can confirm from the years I spent on the admissions board in 2002 and ’03 and from my conversations with more recent board members, if an applicant identifies himself or herself as non-white, the bar for qualification immediately drops."​

 

[Memphis9489]

All such appointments shall be made without regard to the sex, race, color, or religious beliefs of an applicant.

But isn't there a provision (for the academies) that specifically designates what percentage of a class can be female?

Academically speaking, from what I've seen, women tend to stand slightly higher than their male counterparts.

Let's say the admissions board did not know the sex, race, color, or religious beliefs of an applicant -and- 75% of those admitted ended up being female? I do not think that would be permitted. I realize that is a ridiculous number. But - would it theoretically be possible? I think not.

Once the academy has its quota of offers admission to women - I'm pretty sure some of the other female candidates had to be excluded specifically because they were female - wouldn't you think?

Are you saying that would be illegal?

 

[navy2016]

I cannot speak for USNA.

However, this is based on my own failure/experience in seeking admission to my state's public elite, residential high school for 11-12th graders:

Every year this school accepts around 32-36 females and 32-36 males out of about 300-400 applicants. It is oriented to seek "high achieving and motivated students in the area of math and science."

7 of my classmates were accepted from my school(my school is the number one feeder school to this residential school).
I was on waiting list.

All of the excepted except one were all Asian- yes these classmates are more qualified than me academically (ranked from 3-9, i was at number 14= top 5 percent).

However, one person accepted was African American. He still still a friend but secretly told another one of my friends there at he believed he was accepted because he was the only African American in the academic criteria range for acceptance.He is currently the only African American junior in that entire school.
This person is ranked behind me academically (in math and science subjects, we were near equal), had lower standardized test scores, and little extracurricular activities.
We were both in IBMYP- all honors level equivalent GPA weighting.

I believed that he was given acceptance over me because he was more qualified than other students of similar background. Me, on the other hand, was a bit behind in the Asian league.

Another guy on the waiting list was a white with low test scores but high GPA, ranking, and strong EC's.
Unfortunately for both of us, neither got in.


Therefore, race can potentially work for or against a person applying for something.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Academically speaking, from what I've seen, women tend to stand slightly higher than their male counterparts.

That's just because the girls are just so darn distracting in class for us guys...

 

[Just_A_Mom]

But isn't there a provision (for the academies) that specifically designates what percentage of a class can be female?

I don't think it exists for Navy or AF but it does for West Point. West Point can't admit more than 20-25% female. I forget the exact percentage.
This is because West Point provides a large number of Combat arms officers. 80% of all males are required to branch combat arms.
I don't think there is a good reason anymore that Navy and AF can't have a 50/50 male/female ratio.

 

[Memphis9489]

I don't think it exists for Navy or AF but it does for West Point. West Point can't admit more than 20-25% female. I forget the exact percentage.
This is because West Point provides a large number of Combat arms officers. 80% of all males are required to branch combat arms.
I don't think there is a good reason anymore that Navy and AF can't have a 50/50 male/female ratio.

But it seems that the percentage of females admitted into each new USNA class seems rock steady. That cannot be an accident. Perhaps it is self-imposed by the academy. If that were true, then gender is an admission consideration.

I don't know - I was just asking.

 

[aglages]

I believe I've read somewhere (class of 2014 profile) that the same percentage of women USNA applicants receive appointments as men (about 9%).
http://www.usna.edu/admissions/
Fewer women are applying but they seem to have the same chance at admissions as men. The USNA has chosen not to include the same statistical breakdown by race as they have for gender.

 

[Memphis9489]

I believe I've read somewhere (class of 2014 profile) that the same percentage of women USNA applicants receive appointments as men (about 9%).
http://www.usna.edu/admissions/
Fewer women are applying but they seem to have the same chance at admissions as men. The USNA has chosen not to include the same statistical breakdown by race as they have for gender.

I understand that fewer women apply ... fewer women are accepted (compared to the number of men) ... and, consequently, the acceptance rates are roughly equal. That makes sense.

What I'm wondering is if there is a mandated provision in place that would prohibit an incoming class of Plebes from being 50/50 male/female, for instance?

Like I said - it seems the percentage of women in each class is very constant.

 

[Farleigh85]

But it seems that the percentage of females admitted into each new USNA class seems rock steady. That cannot be an accident. Perhaps it is self-imposed by the academy. If that were true, then gender is an admission consideration.

I don't know - I was just asking.

Your question is a good one, and it arises because the admissions process simply is not transparent.

I only have anecdotal evidence to support my opinion, but I believe the proportion of women to men in the profession of arms is fairly steady--and considerably less than 50/50--largely because of self-selection. Simply stated, men are more likely to be inclined toward military service. I don't see a thing wrong with that. In my opinion, over the long haul, self-selection works better than social experimentation carried out by people who believe they can make a better military by mandating quotas or forcing changes contrary to self-selection.

 

[aglages]

Like I said - it seems the percentage of women in each class is very constant.

As long as the percentage of women accepted is close to the percentage of men then I don't think it is an issue. One of the benefits of publishing a "class profile" is that you can see the relative even handedness of the admissions process. If suddenly only 4% of women applicants were accepted then there might be those who would notice and ask "WHY?". Wouldn't adding the racial application/acceptances statistics make the admission process more transparent and answer the concerns that some of us have about the integrity of the admissions process? Or perhaps it would just raise alarm bells and the USNA would have to deal with too many "Whys".

 

[CurrentMid]

I don't think it exists for Navy or AF but it does for West Point. West Point can't admit more than 20-25% female. I forget the exact percentage.
This is because West Point provides a large number of Combat arms officers. 80% of all males are required to branch combat arms.
I don't think there is a good reason anymore that Navy and AF can't have a 50/50 male/female ratio.Just_A_Mom

JOM Your rational is flawed - Women cannot service select SEALS, and are limited on the numbers for EOD and SUBs.

Personally, I think this discussion has run it's course. It ran it's course with most of the same people over on the other site and now has moved here. This does nothing to help prospective applicants other than to inflame them or their parents that somehow since they are white males the system is going to sc**w them over for a perceived lesser qualified minority. Your time and energy would be better spent making sure your little darlings are the best of the bunch of white males so that it is a non- issue.

I am proud to serve with the African American's and other minorities of the Class of 2010. We went through Plebe Summer, Plebe Year, change of Command, Youngster year, Second Class Year and Firstie Year together. We all have earned the right be called graduates and Commissioned Officers in the US Navy and Marine Corps. The Academy is following the priority of the CNO. In the end that is all that matters. Enough.

 

[Memphis9489]

The Academy is following the priority of the CNO. In the end that is all that matters. Enough.

Actually, "in the end", the personal desires and predilections of the CNO is not "all that matters."

A better way of saying it would be, "As a practical matter, for better or worse, the Naval Academy is restricted to carrying out the orders of the CNO."

And maybe it is for the better. Time will tell. I certainly have no way of knowing.

In the end, the only thing that matters is that we have an effective fighting force.

That I'll agree with.

 

[aglages]

This does nothing to help prospective applicants other than to inflame them or their parents that somehow since they are white males the system is going to sc**w them over for a perceived lesser qualified minority.

Let me ask you this: If you are a white male applicant to the USNA is the system going to sc**w you over for a perceived lesser qualified minority?

 

[NorthernCalMother]

Moderators: PLEASE, shut down this thread.

Those not happy w/ the system should look for resolution elsewhere. This forum cannot address their complaints.

CurrentMid (now an Ensign or 2nd Lt?) has it right. This blathering is not helpful to prospective applicants.