Race/Ethnicity and Admission

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http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/04-22-05Fischer.htm
The Chronicle of Higher Education
By Karin Fischer
Fri, Apr 22, 2005, Section: Government & Politics, Volume 51, Issue 33, Page A25

That is so current and has nothing to do with abandoning SAT's for admittance.

As far as the class rank goes, in Texas it is alive and well do to the 10%. But in many other states and particularly in many of independent private schools class rank is not calculated. We see the question asked on these boards about how USNA handles class rank when my school does not rank.
 
That is so current and has nothing to do with abandoning SAT's for admittance.

As far as the class rank goes, in Texas it is alive and well do to the 10%.

It is still alive and well. My post. I get to pick the link. The one I chose, though dated, is still factual, and also had the most comprehensive description.

If the top 10% of high school graduates are offered admission into a state school irregardless of SAT score, that, to me, is abandoning SATs.
 
Florida, Texas, New York, and a few other states have abandoned SATs in favor of class standings. This is similiar to what USNA is doing, both at individual schools and with a racial group in general.
If the top 10% of high school graduates are offered admission into a state school irregardless of SAT score, that, to me, is abandoning SATs.
Has the USNA abandoned SATs or are they accepting only the top 10% of high school students? Which is it? Are they only abandoning SATs for some races/ethnicities but still NOT requiring them to be in the top 10% of their graduating class? Certainly the USNA should be as selective as UT...right? Any requirement for these SAT "excused" students to have taken the most difficult classes on the way to the top 10% of their class? I am curious why the class profile only shows how certain races did on SATs in relation to their peers as opposed to lauding their accomplishments of being in the top 10% of their graduating class.

The USNA is not abandoning standardized tests (SAT/ACT) for admissions. Whether they are selectively abandoning it for certain groups to achieve the CNOs #1 priority is a matter that IMHO should be important to anyone (of any race) and their parents/counselors that are considering applying to the USNA.
 
Texas only uses the Top 10% for In state students. It also requires that your Top 10% applicant must graduate with the recommended/Advanced Highschool Program. All students must submit Transcript, two essays, transcript, rank, either SAT or ACT, Activities record, and recommendations.

They may not use the SAT for those top 10% but it is still required. Actually, there are many schools in Texas that do not rank. The system uses the same criteria that USNA does - school profile and GPA and they estimate a rank.
 
The key is to remember that goal of the USNA is to produce naval officers. Is there any evidence that once in the fleet, minority graduates are inferior to their white shipmates? If not, then the system must be working.

Nobody is saying that minorities, simply because they are minorities, make less effective officers. That's crazy!

What is being discussed is whether minorities, simply because they are minorities, are admitted to the Naval Academy more readily, under lower standards.

It seems you're trying mightily to frame this as a racist argument to diminish the compelling points that have been made.
 
The perception ( 500 SATs + minority status = direct appointment) espoused by few and taken as the truth by many is the problem.
Many factors come into play in one's WPS. URM status is but one.
Yes, one gets "points" if they are an URM.
That and 500 SATs ain't getting you into USNA.

Guess what? 500 SATs and top 8% (that's the current law in Texas, was 10%) class rank automatically gets into UT (Hook'em).

Just went through the process with several students. None got into SAs. Two are at UT and two are in the Corps (cough) at A&M. All are URMs.
 
In Texas, elite private and public high schools know how to game the college admission systems. IMO, this goes for the rest of the country as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about SATs and URMs as I would about how my high school is viewed nationally by admissions folks.
 
Many factors come into play in one's WPS. URM status is but one.
Yes, one gets "points" if they are an URM.
That and 500 SATs ain't getting you into USNA.
Really? How do you know this to be true? Seeing you're privy to this information, how many points does someone get for being an URM? The OP is Korean, will he get any points and would his special points be as many as an AA or Hispanic receives?

Some have suggested that SAT scores are no longer being used at the USNA ...at least for "selected" applicants. Yet you have said that 500 SATs are not good enough for a URM to get admitted. Are you suggesting that you have inside information that is contradictory to what another poster has said is occurring at the USNA? How high does an URM SATs have to be to get admitted after the special URM WPS points are added?
Thanks for all the insight.
 
Nobody is saying that minorities, simply because they are minorities, make less effective officers. That's crazy!

What is being discussed is whether minorities, simply because they are minorities, are admitted to the Naval Academy more readily, under lower standards.

It seems you're trying mightily to frame this as a racist argument to diminish the compelling points that have been made.

Racist? Not at all. I'm trying to say is that, given that the end result of the whole person assessment process are qualified naval officers, that you admit are equally qualified to lead, then the process, in whatever form it takes and with whatever tweeks it has, is working.

This is not to say that those candidates who were not admitted would not have made good officers too. I'm sure they would have.
 
I'm trying to say is that, given that the end result of the whole person assessment process are qualified naval officers, that you admit are equally qualified to lead, then the process, in whatever form it takes and with whatever tweeks it has, is working.
Was the admissions process producing qualified naval officers that were qualified to lead in the 1950s & 60s? I don't think this should be the litmus test of whether the USNA's current admissions process is selecting the best possible candidates from it's applicant pool.
 
Was the admissions process producing qualified naval officers that were qualified to lead in the 1950s & 60s? I don't think this should be the litmus test of whether the USNA's current admissions process is selecting the best possible candidates from it's applicant pool.

Yes, in addition, the system must also be fair.

There's no question that the application pool has many outstanding people who would make effective naval officers.

I also think we can all agree that "the best" are not necessarily those with the highest SAT scores or those who do the most pull-ups or those who graduated in the top 10% of their class. It's not difficult finding outstanding candidates. The challenge is finding the best candidates. I think that's what the American taxpayers deserve. I think that's what the Navy and Marine Corps deserve. I think that's what the enlisted personnel deserve for their future leaders.

Success in past endeavors has always proven to be a good predictive metric for future success. Short of a crystal ball, that is about the best that can be done. This is why a huge part of the application process is demonstrating past successes.

Past outstanding academic excellence is a reliable indicator of future academic excellence. And vice versa. The same can be said for other categories, as well; physical fitness, leadership, reliability, honesty, etc.

When I was a midshipman, I remember some very good people who washed out for academics. They were great people. They probably would have made great officers. But they simply could not get through the rigors of the academic program. Very sad. It is not only important that a candidate has potential to be an effective officer, but they also must be able to survive the academy program. Because, if they can't, then whatever attributes they had that would cause them to be an effective leader are meaningless.

The academy's admission process is fair to each state. That is mandated. No matter how weak a candidate's packet may be from some rural area of Idaho, if s/he's 3Q'd, and s/he's better than the competition - s/he's going to the Naval Academy!

The academy's admission process is fair to each district. If that district has zero candidates qualify - that's not the academy's fault. If nobody even applies from that district - that's not the academy's fault. There is a spot awaiting for somebody in that district who applies, gets nominated, and is 3Q'd.

The academy's admission process if fair to men and women - as has already pointed out by their nearly identical acceptance rates.

What's under scrutiny ... Is the academy's admission process racially fair?

Actually, if the Naval Academy would simply proclaim: "In accordance with policy set forth by the Chief of Naval Operations, each incoming class will consist of a minimum of 33% minorities" - I would understand that. In that context, they'll simply have to do what they have to do to obtain that objective. This may mean that the acceptance rate of minorities is markedly higher than non-minorities for no other reason than less minorities tend to apply - especially if those who do apply tend to be concentrated in certain regions. People may not like it, but at least they'll understand why some candidates get in with a markedly inferior candidate packet.

For instance, if the objective is to have x-number of Hispanics and a disproportionate number of the Hispanic candidates come from just a handful of states (which is probably the case), there are going to be some non-minority candidates with superior packets from those states who are going to be left in the dust wondering, "What the heck?" Let's face it, there are going to be more Hispanic applicants from Texas than from Minnesota.

It's an interesting discussion and I don't know all the answers.
 
MEMPHIS:

Just an old English Major using archaic words. Helped when the job was writing letters and communicating thoughts. You should see some of the crap they call a letter today.:bang: I was embarrassed by some of the letters going out of our office. Heads up to applicants. Have independent people proof read your essay and application at least twice.
 
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I'm trying to say is that, given that the end result of the whole person assessment process are qualified naval officers, that you admit are equally qualified to lead, then the process, in whatever form it takes and with whatever tweeks it has, is working.

In that case, the academy should take candidates who have clearly inferior academic credentials ... cross their fingers that they get through the academy ... track their performance in the fleet ... and if they excel relative to their peers, the academy should use that new lower standard as EVIDENCE that this is what the academy needs to produce superior officers.

That way USNA can start excluding candidates whose academic credentials are too high because the Navy has "evidence" that those who do not do as well in high school tend to make better officers. In other words, low performers tend to morph into high performers for some inexplicable reason.
 
In that case, the academy should take candidates who have clearly inferior academic credentials ... cross their fingers that they get through the academy ... track their performance in the fleet ... and if they excel relative to their peers, the academy should use that new lower standard as EVIDENCE that this is what the academy needs to produce superior officers.

That way USNA can start excluding candidates whose academic credentials are too high because the Navy has "evidence" that those who do not do as well in high school tend to make better officers. In other words, low performers tend to morph into high performers for some inexplicable reason.

Now you're just being moronic. Bye
 
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