Rat Mom

[RahVaMil2009]

I like that you get 20 demos per period.

Can you still use merits to get rid of PTs? Or if it's under 20, do you still have to march?

Dude, I literally had no idea that VMI ever had a merit system. They don't exist anymore, and I never heard anyone talk about them, so they probably went away before '06 got there. But you can earn weekends, extensions, haydowns and optionals. It's a lot harder to earn them than it was my rat and Third Class year, and I think they can only take optional BRC on Saturdays now.

COL Trumps took over as Commandant of Cadets in January of my Third Class year, which is part of why so much changed over the summer. His classic one-liner was that he was putting the "M" back in VMI.

Of course this First Class PVT did a whole lot of this: , but overall, COL Trumps has done an incredible job as Commandant. I have a ton of respect for him as a man and as a leader.

BTW, Room Not in MI is not the only 5-1-5 for stuff like that anymore. One of my rats left her stinky, sweaty ruck that had been rained on out on the stoop to dry after Army PT on a Friday morning last year, and that's how she found out that unauthorized items out on the stoop after 0800 is a 5-1-5 now instead of the 3 demerits it used to be.

Oh, well. There's nothin' like being 22 years old, commissioning in a few months, and getting grounded for not cleaning your room or for missing curfew.

-jmb-

 

[sprog]

Dude, I literally had no idea that VMI ever had a merit system. They don't exist anymore, and I never heard anyone talk about them, so they probably went away before '06 got there. But you can earn weekends, extensions, haydowns and optionals. It's a lot harder to earn them than it was my rat and Third Class year, and I think they can only take optional BRC on Saturdays now.

COL Trumps took over as Commandant of Cadets in January of my Third Class year, which is part of why so much changed over the summer. His classic one-liner was that he was putting the "M" back in VMI.

Of course this First Class PVT did a whole lot of this: , but overall, COL Trumps has done an incredible job as Commandant. I have a ton of respect for him as a man and as a leader.

BTW, Room Not in MI is not the only 5-1-5 for stuff like that anymore. One of my rats left her stinky, sweaty ruck that had been rained on out on the stoop after Army PT on a Friday morning last year, and that's how she found out that unauthorized items out on the stoop after 0800 is a 5-1-5 now instead of the 3 demerits it used to be.

-jmb-

Yeah, you used to get merits for Dean's list (more for Ac Stars) and a few other things. I want to say they were a part of Cadre privs, too, but I can't really recall. Ac Stars also got you days, which for a while you could take "on post." It was essentially "all duty" (didn't have to go to class or formation).

In my four years, there were three commandants (Gen. Bozeman, Col. Dickson, and Col. Joyner). Hence, the rules were in flux from year to year. I will say, however, that CTT was invented during my cadetship. As a Rat, we had classes on Saturdays (which blew!). The creation of CTT when the Sat. classes went away(to make up for an extra hour on T and Th) was one of the most *****ed-about things that I recall. I see that it survived the test of time. I'd personally take as many practice parades as possible to make up for no class on Saturday. Luckily, I only had to endure Sat. AM class as a Rat, when I wasn't going anywhere anyway.

Looks like, dare I say it, we may have had it a little easier than you guys with regard to some of the privs and punishments.


BTW: Two merits would get rid of 1 PT.

You could still earn weekends and all that other stufff. Cadet Captains could grant haydowns, and they gave them out like candy to their BRs. Optionals were a little trickier, but you could most certainly get it for BRC. Blood drives were good for that!!

 

[RahVaMil2009]

You could still earn weekends and all that other stufff. Cadet Captains could grant haydowns, and they gave them out like candy to their BRs. Optionals were a little trickier, but you could most certainly get it for BRC. Blood drives were good for that!!

They cracked down on that severely over the course of my cadetship. I think they revoked Cadet Captain haydown-granting privileges when I was a Third. Now even Cadet Captains have to submit a permit to get stuff like that approved.

For instance, the S-5 CPT can grant haydowns to cadets who volunteer to work the Open House, and the S-7 CPT can grant haydowns to cadets who help with certain S-7 events. But they have to get the permit approved before hand. But if you're on the S-5 or S-7 Staff, you don't get those privileges since it's part of your duties. Another reason why it's so awesome to be a PVT.

Occassionally they'll allow PT details for S-7 stuff, such as cleaning up after a hop or concert. That will either follow the 20 PT rule, or if you're lucky they'll just have PTs form up in Cocke Hall or wherever and that's what the entire PT formation does for three hours.

No more 2-for-1 PT details, either. Unless you're a First Classman who's trying to graduate and work out a deal with the Commandant to march your tours with a ruck sack in addition to your M-14 so you can finish your PTs during Dead Week in order to walk the stage with your BRs.

Aaaaand you can't leave early for Christmas furlough if you have an outstanding PT balance anymore. You don't march any PTs during exam week, but the tradeoff is that you stay there and march them off once your exams are done.

PTs actually weren't all that bad my rat and Third Class year, which is why they changed the system.

 

[sprog]

PTs actually weren't all that bad my rat and Third Class year, which is why they changed the system.

They weren't all that bad when I was there, especially with merits and details.

Confinement still blew, so I'm not sure why Trumps wanted to be more of a hard-ass on the PTs. And getting rid of merits? I don't know who came up with that, but I'm sure there was *****ing galore. These revisions that you've described seem a bit long on the "stick" and light on the "carrot." That should make some of the old salt alums happy, I guess.

Your news leaves me a bit conflicted. With details, the Institute gets some service from the penance of the boned cadet. What does it get from marching? On the other hand, it is a more effective disciplinary tool if the individual is forced to march the tours. More people will toe the line if the punishment is stiffer, I suppose.

100 PTs for your kid, Bruno? Did he mug a Colonel or something?

 

[pennak]

Dude, I literally had no idea that VMI ever had a merit system. They don't exist anymore, and I never heard anyone talk about them, so they probably went away before '06 got there. But you can earn weekends, extensions, haydowns and optionals. It's a lot harder to earn them than it was my rat and Third Class year, and I think they can only take optional BRC on Saturdays now.

COL Trumps took over as Commandant of Cadets in January of my Third Class year, which is part of why so much changed over the summer. His classic one-liner was that he was putting the "M" back in VMI.

Of course this First Class PVT did a whole lot of this: , but overall, COL Trumps has done an incredible job as Commandant. I have a ton of respect for him as a man and as a leader.

BTW, Room Not in MI is not the only 5-1-5 for stuff like that anymore. One of my rats left her stinky, sweaty ruck that had been rained on out on the stoop to dry after Army PT on a Friday morning last year, and that's how she found out that unauthorized items out on the stoop after 0800 is a 5-1-5 now instead of the 3 demerits it used to be.

Oh, well. There's nothin' like being 22 years old, commissioning in a few months, and getting grounded for not cleaning your room or for missing curfew.

-jmb-

Geez, you guys talk funny. What is "Room Not in MI" and what is "5-1-5"

 

[sprog]

Geez, you guys talk funny. What is "Room Not in MI" and what is "5-1-5"

"Room not in MI order"= Room not in Morning Inspection order. From 1st CP to 1200, the room can be inspected by a member of the commandant's staff and must conform with the regs (Blue Book). If it doesn't, a "bone" is in order. It could be one or two demos for dirty shoes, dust on the floor, etc. If it is really nasty in the eyes of the inspector, you could get nailed with the "Room not in MI order" and receive a 5-1-5.

5-1-5= five demerits, one week of Barracks confinement, and five penalty tours (PTs).

 

[bjkuds]

Now you can schedule your own PTs?

I understand that "PT details" exist during the week to help get rid of them, but when I was there that was limited to a few every week. Tours were marched on Saturday and Sunday in the afternoon (assuming no football game, which counted as three tours). Effectively, that meant you couldn't leave post that weekend (which is why they did it that way).

As a Rat, marching a PT isn't that big of a deal. It's not like you're going anywhere anyway. It only sucks when you are a First, have a car, and have a place to go.

My grades were good enough to "merit off" a few errant PTs which came my way as a Second and First. Still, I have also spent time marching them. My advice is to get NCO and officer rank the last two years so as to have a saber instead of a rifle. It makes the walk easier.

I probably used the wrong term with saying he scheduled them. He told me when he planned to get them done and the time he has them planned to do so does not interfere with class time and he can work around his study time...so he is managing getting them done. Whether it's when they say he has to do them I can't say either way, but in any case he had a plan. It was his first 5 demerits and he received 5 tours. Maybe it's the level of offense that warranted the PT's because I thought he told me they didn't do PT's until they earned 20 demerits. Sorry for the confusion, and yes it did cost him a weekend on post when he could have had Sunday with his host family and this following Saturday is when he is marching the remainder off.

 

[RahVaMil2009]

Okay... translation time.

Penalties at VMI typically come in three forms: demerits, confinement, and penalty tours (PTs). Depending on the seriousness of the infraction, it might warrant any or all of these sanctions.

1-2 demerits is no big deal. It will show up on Post View so he can track his progress.

The school year is divided into eight demerit periods--four per semester--which are roughly 28 days each. They can rack up demerits for any manner of things, and as long as they stay below 20, they'll be all right. Any demos over 20 automatically turn into PTs for the following demerit period. If he racks up 22 demos this period, he'll automatically have two PTs next period for excess demerits.

If the infraction is grave enough that it could result in confinement and PTs, he'll get what's known as a special report--typically shortened to "special." It's a piece of paper that has his name, the alleged infraction, date/time of alleged infraction, and name of the person who reported it. He'll have a chance to answer it "Correct," "Incorrect," or "Correct, but wish to explain." Regardless of how he responds, he'll have to go answer it in person to a member of the Commandant's Staff.

You have to be incredibly careful with this stuff. As soon as you sign and date the special, you've made an official statement. If you realize that something in your written response was inaccurate or that you need to add an extra detail, you have to go find one of the Honor Court Prosecutors, explain the situation, and get them to initial it when you make the correction. Lying on a special is considered a false official statement, and it will be handled in the usual manner.

I missed class one time as a First because a meeting with the Board of Visitors ran late. (Without a doubt the coolest excuse I ever had!) The special indicated that I had been late or absent from class. In most aspects of life, it would be fine to say that this was incorrect, because I had a good excuse. However, the proper response is "Correct, but wish to explain." The report was correct because I had been absent from class, even though I had a good excuse. The special got scratched, but had I answered it "Incorrect", I probably wouldn't be posting on this forum anymore and I certainly wouldn't be wearing my VMI ring right now.

To many, this seems like a hypersensitive system that focuses way too much on technicalities and stupid details that don't really matter. But when we talk about "attention to detail," this is what we mean. The VMI system teaches you to value absolute accuracy in explaining a situation.

During the Ratline, dykes have to march specials in with their rats. Unless, of course, you're like my rat... it got to be October or November and she still hadn't gotten a special, so I made her get in gray blouse one afternoon and march one of mine in with me so she could see how it was done. She didn't get a special until after Breakout, but I was nice and still marched it in with her.

The goal is to get the special "scratched", which means you walk out with no penalty, but this is not always possible. You very rarely walk out after answering a special with only demerits. The standard penalties are always stated with number of demerits first, then weeks/months confinement, then number of PTs.

For instance, a Penalty #10 is a 5-0-5, or 5 demerits, no confinement, and 5 PTs. But they almost never give out #10s. The two favorites are #9 (5-1-5) and #8 (10-2-10).

It goes up incrementally from there. The #5 is another favorite: 10 demerits, 6 weeks confinement, 30 PTs + loss of rank. You also lose your rank for a #4-#1. The #1 is the highest penalty you can get short of suspension: 15 demerits, four months confinement, and 60 PTs.

And then, of course, there's the infamous A-1, or an Alcohol Penalty #1. This is awarded to Keydets who are dumb enough to get caught with alcohol anywhere on Post (regardless of age). An A-1 consists of the standard #1 penalty, plus a semester of conduct probation and mandatory alcohol counseling.

Come to think of it, sprog, I think Room Not in MI is a 5-0-5 now. But they also have Room in Gross Disorder, which is a 10-2-10.

-jmb-

 

[RahVaMil2009]

Oh, one more thing... if you hear them talk about the General Committee (GC), that's the cadet government system. The GC is comprised of the three class officers (president, vice president, historian) of the upper three classes, plus the GC Secretary (a First Classman). The GC runs the Class System.

The GC also has four subcommittees: the Rat Disciplinary Committee (RDC), the Officer of the Guard Association (OGA), the Cadet Equity Association (CEA), and the Executive Committee (EC). The RDC takes care of the rats. The OGA is comprised of First Class PVTs who conduct investigations related to misconduct (unauthorized ratline activities, improper relations, etc.) and they oversee the Dyke System. The CEA is charged with accomplishing the Superintendent's goal of improving civility Post-wide, specifically within the Corps. The EC is a little more complex, but they adjudicate the most serious cases of cadet misconduct, when suspension and/or dismissal are on the table.

When you hear people talk about how "The Corps runs itself", they're talking about the Regimental System, or the rank structure. When you hear them say that "The Corps polices itself", they're talking about the Class System.

The GC can assign confinement and PTs, but not demerits. If you get boned, the penalty comes from the Commandant; if you get "sent up" to the GC, the penalty comes from your fellow cadets.

-jmb-

 

[pennak]

Wow! Thanks rahvamil2009. This helps a lot!! Is any of this written down somewhere that parents can see? The ble book is locked up online

 

[pennak]

Thanks!

 

[pennak]

So I'm told there something called a "rat mission". What's that?

 

[RahVaMil2009]

So I'm told there something called a "rat mission". What's that?

This is when your dyke makes you do something crazy or stupid just so the upperclassmen will give you a hard time. The terms "rat mission" and "dyke mission" are generally used interchangeably.

For instance, I once had to walk up to one of the biggest members of the RDC and hug him with both arms. He was on the phone with his girlfriend at the time. He looked down at me with a look of pure fury and hatred, and my dyke (who was laughing hysterically) said, "Tell him that you love him, Jackie!!!" With a look of sheer terror as I saw my life flash before my eyes, my voice shook as I said, "This rat loves you, Mr. Fricke."

When he realized it was a dyke mission, he looked over at my dyke and then put an arm around me, just to spite her. She was so mad that he hugged me back.

 

[pennak]

This is when your dyke makes you do something crazy or stupid just so the upperclassmen will give you a hard time. The terms "rat mission" and "dyke mission" are generally used interchangeably.

For instance, I once had to walk up to one of the biggest members of the RDC and hug him with both arms. He was on the phone with his girlfriend at the time. He looked down at me with a look of pure fury and hatred, and my dyke (who was laughing hysterically) said, "Tell him that you love him, Jackie!!!" With a look of sheer terror as I saw my life flash before my eyes, my voice shook as I said, "This rat loves you, Mr. Fricke."

When he realized it was a dyke mission, he looked over at my dyke and then put an arm around me, just to spite her. She was so mad that he hugged me back.

Thanks! Your story is hilarious! Your dyke really should have foreseen that response! BTW, does the Rat usually end up getting boned for the mission? (and why would a dyke inflict that on his Rat anyway? -- or is the answer to that simply: "BEcause he can")

 

[sprog]

or is the answer to that simply: "BEcause he can")

Yes, that's the reason.

In my memory, the Rat is not usually boned (it being, as RVM described, more of a matter for the class system). I suppose the Rat could be "sent up" to the RDC or GC, but the upperclassman would have to be an a-hole (and there are plenty who fit that bill). At the very least, he will probably get worked out by the "victim" of the Dyke mission.

Two things Rats dread to hear:

"Rat XXX, the time is now XXXX, you're up to the RDC for..."

And:

"Rat XXX, report to my room tonight at CQRB in sweat dyke."

CQRB is the 15 minute period before Taps, fyi. "Call to Quarters-Release in Barracks" (I think that's what it stands for).

 

[RahVaMil2009]

In my memory, the Rat is not usually boned (it being, as RVM described, more of a matter for the class system). I suppose the Rat could be "sent up" to the RDC or GC, but the upperclassman would have to be an a-hole (and there are plenty who fit that bill). At the very least, he will probably get worked out by the "victim" of the Dyke mission.

Here's the double-edged sword of a dyke mission:

1. The rat is typically too afraid of the dyke to say "no";
2. The upperclassmen are typically too afraid of the dyke to respond too strongly.

Rat missions typically involve some kind of disrespect to upperclassmen, but as soon as they realize it's a dyke mission--especially the Thirds--there's really not too much they can do other than find a reason to make the rats do pushups or work them out at the next sweat party. They could send the rat up to the RDC, but they know that if they GC the rat, the dyke will find a reason (or two, or three, or four....) to send the upperclassman up to the GC in return.

The dyke needs to make sure their rats experience the Ratline to its fullest (ie, making sure they do lots of pushups!), but they also protect the rats from being treated unfairly. This sounds like an inherently self-contradictory statement, but it makes sense as long as the dyke doesn't take it too far.

I didn't make my rat do too many dyke missions, but I did tell her First Sergeant (who was like a little brother to me) when her aunts took her out to lunch and Wal-Mart and she came back with Barbie cereal. She didn't understand it at the time, but now it's one of her favorite Ratline stories.

And now it's her turn to make sure the rat-ties have a Ratline, while protecting them from injustice. I saw pics on Facebook of one of her rats (my grandrats!) getting ready to strain back to her room wearing a Spongebob mask. Of course that's considered being out of uniform, which is an upperclass privilege... but none of the Seconds or Thirds would dare send her up to the GC for it.

Kind of like how nobody dared send us up for being improperly dressed when my dyke made us strain back up to our rooms wearing birthday hats to celebrate her birthday by doing lots of pushups.

 

[pennak]

Yes, that's the reason.

In my memory, the Rat is not usually boned (it being, as RVM described, more of a matter for the class system). I suppose the Rat could be "sent up" to the RDC or GC, but the upperclassman would have to be an a-hole (and there are plenty who fit that bill). At the very least, he will probably get worked out by the "victim" of the Dyke mission.

Two things Rats dread to hear:

"Rat XXX, the time is now XXXX, you're up to the RDC for..."

And:

"Rat XXX, report to my room tonight at CQRB in sweat dyke."

CQRB is the 15 minute period before Taps, fyi. "Call to Quarters-Release in Barracks" (I think that's what it stands for).

So "boned" means report to the Commandant who can assign demerits AND PTs and confinement? Serious misconduct warrants a "bone" or a special report. But the GC (the class system) can assign PTs and confinement but not demerits. This must be listed somewhere what kind of conducts warrants a bone and and a demerits or just PT and confinement. For example, a Room not in MI gets a bone and a trip to the Commandant's staff. So what, for example, does being late to formation or say, a missing belt on the uniform mean? I mean, this is getting very complex.

 

[sprog]

So "boned" means report to the Commandant who can assign demerits AND PTs and confinement? Serious misconduct warrants a "bone" or a special report. But the GC (the class system) can assign PTs and confinement but not demerits. This must be listed somewhere what kind of conducts warrants a bone and and a demerits or just PT and confinement. For example, a Room not in MI gets a bone and a trip to the Commandant's staff. So what, for example, does being late to formation or say, a missing belt on the uniform mean? I mean, this is getting very complex.

Yeah, the mix between the regimental system and the class system is complex. Sometimes they can even compete. For instance, when I was a Cadet, it was a First Class privilege (i.e. something granted by the class system) to talk in formation. That is also a bone. It also used to be a Third Class priv. to wear a cover in an academic building, which is a bone (it's a bone to be covered indoors unless under arms).

How to get it straight?

The difference between a bone and a send-up is, at its most simple explanation, the identity of the person giving the penalty. Bones are for disciplinary violations enforced by the regimental system. Thus, the commandan't staff hands out bones (and Cadet Captains-high ranking First Classmen-can as well...or used to when I was a cadet). Your average tool-bag Third cannot bone anyone.

Send-ups come when a cadet takes a privilege that does not belong to members of his class. Send-ups to the RDC come when a Rat has violated a rule of the Ratline. For instance, a Third who drinks while standing in the mess hall has taken a First Class priv., and can be sent to the GC. A Rat who doesn't know his Rat Bible knowledge can go to the RDC. Disrespect to senior classes also is a send-up. It is always another cadet who sends someone up to the RDC or GC-the commandant's staff is not involved.

Confusing, yes, but that is part of the uniqueness of the place.

I forgot to include the HC, or Honor Court. If a cadet is suspected of violating the honor code, either a cadet or an administration official can initiate a "report" to an HC member. From there, if warranted, an investigation begins and it is a very formal process that is quasi-judicial in nature.

Going to anything with a "C" is bad. Going to the HC is the worst of all.

 

[HMQ]

So "boned" means report to the Commandant who can assign demerits AND PTs and confinement? Serious misconduct warrants a "bone" or a special report. But the GC (the class system) can assign PTs and confinement but not demerits. This must be listed somewhere what kind of conducts warrants a bone and and a demerits or just PT and confinement. For example, a Room not in MI gets a bone and a trip to the Commandant's staff. So what, for example, does being late to formation or say, a missing belt on the uniform mean? I mean, this is getting very complex.

It is very complex to us parents on the outside, but as you can see from RVM's posts, the rules are deeply ingrained, even after graduation

By the way Pennak, try googling "vmi blue book" and it might lead you to an outdated pdf which will give you the gist (besides being mind-numbing!) I think there is a list of offenses and their proscribed penalties. My son got a 5-1-5 last year for falling asleep at a public lecture.

 

[pennak]

Yeah, the mix between the regimental system and the class system is complex. Sometimes they can even compete. For instance, when I was a Cadet, it was a First Class privilege (i.e. something granted by the class system) to talk in formation. That is also a bone. It also used to be a Third Class priv. to wear a cover in an academic building, which is a bone (it's a bone to be covered indoors unless under arms).

How to get it straight?

The difference between a bone and a send-up is, at its most simple explanation, the identity of the person giving the penalty. Bones are for disciplinary violations enforced by the regimental system. Thus, the commandan't staff hands out bones (and Cadet Captains-high ranking First Classmen-can as well...or used to when I was a cadet). Your average tool-bag Third cannot bone anyone.

Send-ups come when a cadet takes a privilege that does not belong to members of his class. Send-ups to the RDC come when a Rat has violated a rule of the Ratline. For instance, a Third who drinks while standing in the mess hall has taken a First Class priv., and can be sent to the GC. A Rat who doesn't know his Rat Bible knowledge can go to the RDC. Disrespect to senior classes also is a send-up. It is always another cadet who sends someone up to the RDC or GC-the commandant's staff is not involved.

Confusing, yes, but that is part of the uniqueness of the place.

I forgot to include the HC, or Honor Court. If a cadet is suspected of violating the honor code, either a cadet or an administration official can initiate a "report" to an HC member. From there, if warranted, an investigation begins and it is a very formal process that is quasi-judicial in nature.

Going to anything with a "C" is bad. Going to the HC is the worst of all.

Thanks very much for the explanation. I pity the new Rats who are attempting to sort it all out and to remember all the arcane rules. My DS Rat says that thus far he has earned only 1 demerit (late to formation), no PTs and no confinement. I guess is doing ok.