Reality Check

[Maplerock]

I think that many minority applicants who apply may be more qualified. Who knows really. But I can hypothesize as well as you can.

Many minority applicants are extremely qualified.

Hypothetical:
One opening left... white male 1500 SAT (M&R) great qualifications or a minority applicant 1500 SAT (M&R) with great qualifications... who gets the appointment? My hypothesis gives it to the minority applicant.

In fact, I believe the minority applicant probably gets it even if they had a only a 1300 SAT. Could I be wrong? Yes. Could you be wrong?

America, The land of many opinions!

 

[USMCGrunt]

Time to let this debate go...

I am reminded of a timeless quote: "Opinions are like xxx; everyone has one!"

 

[brovol]

I didn't think you were. I was intentionally clarifying my point so I don't get put in a bucket (I understand why diversity is needed). My point to you was that "super high achieving" white males are (statically) getting in and not bypassed. But not as much for x̅ white males in the applicant pool (who are pretty darn smart but IMHO, not super high achieving).

Some interesting points (which are in no way statistically significant). The #1 USAFA grad last year was female and a Rhodes winner. The #1 2016 Naval Academy Midshipman grad was a Rhodes winner. Also female (see https://www.usna.edu/NewsCenter/201...hipman-named-rhodes-scholarship-recipient.php ). Congratulations Megan!

All good. And I'm not going to express anything further on the obviously quite distinguished young women who achieved so much as referenced in your post, other than saying good for them.

 

[parentalunit2]

I adore threads such as these because, well, in the end they are pointless. To whom exactly is anyone complaining by posting about this in this forum? If one truly does not like the recent push for ‘inclusion’, complain to the Pentagon, where all services are taking part!

 

[Cerberi]

On the lighter side:

My first experience with diversity training at USAFA. Just got off the phone with my Dad during a summer program. Someone jokingly asked how it was going on the homefront. I replied that my Dad was quite upset, because the local Coon Hunters Club (which owned property across the road from where we had about 100 head of cattle) had a meeting and our cattle were all stirred up.

A classmate from inner city Philadelphia nearly popped her head off twisting around to shout 'Coon hunting?!!' to which I replied, 'It's not that bad, they don't kill it. They just throw it in a bag and drag it through the woods before letting the dogs go.'

Fortunately, someone was around to bridge the language barrier prior to me spending a semester with Social Actions

 

[brovol]

I adore threads such as these because, well, in the end they are pointless. To whom exactly is anyone complaining by posting about this in this forum? If one truly does not like the recent push for ‘inclusion’, complain to the Pentagon, where all services are taking part!

I don't think anyone was complaining. The topic comes up when applicants want to know what scores they need to put themselves in a comfortable position for an appointment. They can use the "average" scores that are published, which are based upon the numbers from an entire entering class, or they can look at things more realistically by assessing there particular situation. Just the same as considering if you are from a noncompetitive district as compared to a very competitive district.

 

[brovol]

On the lighter side:

My first experience with diversity training at USAFA. Just got off the phone with my Dad during a summer program. Someone jokingly asked how it was going on the homefront. I replied that my Dad was quite upset, because the local Coon Hunters Club (which owned property across the road from where we had about 100 head of cattle) had a meeting and our cattle were all stirred up.

A classmate from inner city Philadelphia nearly popped her head off twisting around to shout 'Coon hunting?!!' to which I replied, 'It's not that bad, they don't kill it. They just throw it in a bag and drag it through the woods before letting the dogs go.'

Fortunately, someone was around to bridge the language barrier prior to me spending a semester with Social Actions

LOL. More political incorrectness.

 

[Alaskan]

Many minority applicants are extremely qualified.

Hypothetical:
One opening left... white male 1500 SAT (M&R) great qualifications or a minority applicant 1500 SAT (M&R) with great qualifications... who gets the appointment? My hypothesis gives it to the minority applicant.

In fact, I believe the minority applicant probably gets it even if they had a only a 1300 SAT. Could I be wrong? Yes. Could you be wrong?

America, The land of many opinions!

Who gets the nomination? LOL.

 

[2018DAD]

My little two cents:

After being a sponsor parent for the last two years and having one or two of just about every 'group' you could imagine in our house for DDO and AC year...the conversations about school, military, sports, policies and politics, Cadets and Cadet life, world events, etc etc...the richness and diversity of points of view due to regions, background, socioeconomic, cultures, experiences....leads to discussions that are truly rewarding and heartfelt to overhear and/or participate with these outstanding Cadets!!
I think that having the ability to approach critical situations and problems from a rich consensus that is grounded on a uniform training, allows this incredible strength of multiple perspectives to hone-in/dial-in to a decision that can be executed by all! I would love to see these same Cadets in Jack's, at say the LRC..when group problem solving and execution IS the name of the game! The Cadre charge of "Figure it out!" really draws on this group strength. All end up equally 'invested' in the solution (right or wrong) and I think this is one of the core strengths of the leadership that USAFA and the other SAs are trying to cultivate and grow within these future leaders.
So just do your very best, submit the best application, and keep your eye on the goal of serving as an Officer (hopefully for a long career) and realize that there are multiple paths to that goal (ROTC,OTS)and as numerous others have pointed out: 0% if you do not apply. Control and improve what you can and forget about trying to game or second guess the System and what group is moving up and moving down, 'in favor' or 'out of favor'.
DS never worried about 'chancing' when denied first time around he continued to improve, started earnestly on plan B with reapply or OTS in mind, when the Falcon Foundation popped up! Continued to use that year to improve and is now C2C. (We are in an incredibly, incredibly competitive GA district, so it can be done!!)

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I adore threads such as these because, well, in the end they are pointless. To whom exactly is anyone complaining by posting about this in this forum? If one truly does not like the recent push for ‘inclusion’, complain to the Pentagon, where all services are taking part!

Here is my 2 cents.. If it was really pointless to post, I wouldn't have bothered. I look at it this way..... 3900+ people have read this thread and their opinion can be influenced by written words. Most recently, Christcorp shaped my view (a.k.a. changed my mind) on a topic just like this one (Ivy's recruit 20% of their student body via athletics).

Additionally, it's nice to see what anonymous people think. In actuality, complaining to the Pentagon is a waste of effort.

 

[Rockats]

Contributors to these forums tend to be very encouraging and upbeat. That's a good thing.

Recently the numbers came out for the class of 2020, and it she'd a little light on what USAFA is looking for.

If you are a white male, coming directly out of high school, your chance of admission is quite low. By my calculation, about 30% of this year's incoming class is female, and about 30% is minority. Add to that the recruited athletes, enlisted personal that earn slots, the prep school kids, the turnbacks, and the repeat applicants coming from college, and the chance of a white male graduating from HS in May and entering BCT in June would be pretty small.

Does it happen? Yes. Should it discourage you from applying? No. It is just a reminder to have a good plan B,C,D, etc. Your chances of a direct admission from high school have never been smaller. I'd suspect the same is true for USMA, USNA, and USCGA too.

Not good news, not bad news, just information... and a reality check for the great students out there that think their grades and ECAs make them a shoe in. It doesn't work that way anymore.

Good luck to all the applicants for the class of 2021.

I could not agree more with this statement as I've now seen this play out with others that we know, one year-two years of college then academy admission. DS has been pushing this academy admission so hard-and all summer I've been pushing plans B, C, D.....
Good advice to all 2021! Thanks for the reminder!

 

[Spirit mom]

^^^ +1000

If people truly understood this, they would not attempt to dissect academy statistics for any other purpose than understanding the makeup of the officer corps. These stats are not a source of pride and do not enable anyone to compare an SA with a civilian college or determine odds of admission. When people ask what our son is up to these days, more often than not, I simply say he joined the military.

He's in the army. He is not at college.

Completely disagree. Our sons will be in the Army in August 2019 when they graduate and commission. Right now they are college students training to be Army officers. They are nondeployable, and I promise when your son is going through Ranger or whatever he decides, or in AFG you will consider that the real Army.

 

[Capt MJ]

I am not quite sure which "ravel" of this thread to throw two cents at, but you can be in the service and be in college/graduate school/professional training pipeline at the same time. Not mutually exclusive states. In the Navy, it's called DUINS, or duty under instruction, and so specified on orders as your full-time duty. No, the Naval Academy is not "the haze-gray and underway Fleet" or "to-the-shores-of-Tripoli" Corps" just yet, but it's 24/7 military status as a pre-comm member at the rank of midshipman, who is taking courses at an accredited military institution to gain a degree and earn a commission. They are held accountable to the UCMJ and take an oath to obey orders, and considered to be adults.

The Navy, as all services do, considers education and professional training important and expected parts of the career path, and routinely issues DUINS orders at appropriate career junctures.

I spent two full-time DUINS years at the Naval Postgraduate School obtaining a Master's. I didn't deploy, get underway, stand watches or supervise people. My only job was to successfully complete my M.S. It was just as much "real Navy" to me, because it was critical to my career progression. There are enlisted personnel who apply for various commissioning programs, and may be ordered DUINS to complete their Bachelor's as full-time DUINS at a civilian school, gain their commission, and rejoin the Fleet as officers. Top-performing Navy Supply Corps officers are sent for their MBA at prestigious civilian B schools, DUINS. Many officers attend the various War Colleges, or civilian graduate schools, for a Master's, DUINS.

The USNA Permit To Report is essentially what creates the official "DUINS status," where the full-time duty of the mid is to complete all requirements successfully to gain degree and commission.

I understand there are nuances about SA mids and cadets (less USMMA) and their somewhat limbo-esque suspension between college student and military member, but I have no problem seeing them as active duty pre-comm members on de facto DUINS.

And for interesting reading, a history of USNA '42, whose senior year was cut short days after Pearl Harbor, commissioned, and sent to the Fleet and Corps. Of course, that was in a time of full mobilization, and as always, the needs of the Navy/Marines prevailed. Lots of fascinating facts about "then."

http://www.usna.com/page.aspx?pid=700

 

[VelveteenR]

Completely disagree. Our sons will be in the Army in August 2019 when they graduate and commission. Right now they are college students training to be Army officers. They are nondeployable, and I promise when your son is going through Ranger or whatever he decides, or in AFG you will consider that the real Army.

I can assure you your son is not misinformed about his military status.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I could not agree more with this statement as I've now seen this play out with others that we know, one year-two years of college then academy admission. DS has been pushing this academy admission so hard-and all summer I've been pushing plans B, C, D.....
Good advice to all 2021! Thanks for the reminder!

I'm confused. Why would you be pushing a different plan versus what your son is dreaming of?

If you think you are being bypassed by politics, then get off the bubble. One example of many: rewind to my DS's 6th grade. During hockey tryouts, it seemed obvious to me that the coaches kids were rounded up on the traveling teams (as well as their friends). In MN, hockey is a BIG deal and parents self esteem quickly gets tied into how well their kids do especially in something so visual as sports. So some parents want to coach (especially Dad's) for the wrong reasons specifically to round up their kids. Of course with more ice time you eventually become a better player. Everyone who is reading has witnessed this to some degree.

I chose the path of encouraging him to get off that bubble. I let him know life isn't fair and I refused to give him any sympathy. I explained it is going to happen over and over if you are the bubble kid (or adult). The solution is to get off that bubble and make it more obvious you deserve it more than others. If that happens, they will have no choice but to pick you. That is a approach that makes you a better person and you make the team (don't leave the decision to politics). That said, the parents who had the stud hockey kid didn't feel my pain. AND if I am being honest, the white male USAFA students and parents won't get what you are feeling either. So back in the 6th grade till 11th story.. He worked in the off season with a gazillion camps and dryland exercises and finally made the varsity team..... But not until his senior year and on the 4th line. Like USAFA where many don't bother filling out a complete application or quit after they see a medical qualification (measured in the THOUSANDS), many MN hockey players give up playing something they love and want to do because the tough gets going. Your son has perseverance and that is such an admirable trait.

I'd be the parent pushing plan A and encouraging him to find more somewhere (everyone has more; they just need to find it). In HS, making that varsity team in itself didn't matter nor will being a USAFA cadet make your son. But if people apply that drive and perseverance to the things that they want, more often than not the reward will happen. I wish your son the very best! He can do it and especially with your support!

 

[VelveteenR]

DS has been pushing this academy admission so hard-and all summer I've been pushing plans B, C, D.....

I'm confused. Why would you be pushing a different plan versus what your son is dreaming of?

I read that as the poster recognizing the odds and trying to make sure kiddo completes his apps for alternate plans in case plan A doesn't work out. That's not lack of support. That's just good planning. There is no scenario under a kid's control where an academy has "no choice but to pick you up."

 

[Christcorp]

Completely disagree. Our sons will be in the Army in August 2019 when they graduate and commission. Right now they are college students training to be Army officers. They are nondeployable, and I promise when your son is going through Ranger or whatever he decides, or in AFG you will consider that the real Army.

True, but with one little caveat. I'm not sure if your sons are at Westpoint or ROTC. But if they are at Westpoint; or any of the military academies; while it's true they are no "Deployable", the academies in the past have graduated cadets early because of war, the military had a strong need for junior officers.

Over the years, I've had a lot of parents tell me and believe in their hearts, that their son or daughter (At the academy) wasn't in the "Military". They saw them as "College Students". Just like spirit mom believes. Mind you, Spirit Mom's sons may be in ROTC and it's different in some regards to the academy. But my retort to all those who think this way, that their child is "Simply a College Student" and not in the military is:

"Are they SUBJECT to the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)"?

If they are....... then they ARE IN THE MILITARY.

Let's see. You are a college student at Colorado State University in Fort Collins Colorado. On the weekend, you and some friends go to a club, drink a couple of beers, buy some pot and smoke a few joints. You enjoy the weekend and go back to school on Monday. Professor asks what you did over the weekend. You tell him/her, and they say they wish they could have been with you.

or

You are a cadet at the United State Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs Colorado. You're a C2C or C1C. It's the weekend. You've got a million passes and you're over 21, so you go down town with a couple cadet friends to a club. You have the same fun time out. Go to a club, drink a couple of beers, buy some pot and smoke a few joints. You enjoy the weekend and go back to the dorms and back to class on Monday. Your professor asks what you did over the weekend. You tell him/her, and the next thing you know you're detained and pressing charges which will definitely include separation from the academy/military, and depending on the charges, they could include selling, distributing, etc. and you could go to jail.

There's a laundry list of rules under the UCMJ that a cadet must abide to that a "Traditional College Student or ANYONE NOT in the MILITARY has to". In other words....... "If you are bound by the UCMJ, and are subject to disciplinary action based on the UCMJ, then you ARE IN THE MILITARY. A parent can believe that their kid is a "College Student" all they want. They can think that their kid is "OFF TO COLLEGE". But they aren't. They ARE in the military. It just so happens that their first assignment is at the academy; and their first AFSC/MOS happens to be "STUDENT". Just like when my son graduated the air force academy and went immediately to Graduate School. His NEXT Duty Assignment was Los Angeles Air Force Base, and his AFSC was "Student" while he was attending the Parde Rand Graduate School.

Again; not knowing Spirit Mom's sons situation, I'm not speaking of her kids. But if your child is attending one of the military academies, then they are most definitely in the military. They aren't simply "College Students". The good thing is........ It's ok if parents want to think this way. It makes them less anxious and stressed worrying. But their Little Johnny or Joanie happen to "KNOW THE TRUTH". They ARE in the military. And as long as THEY know it; it's ok if mommy and daddy believe otherwise.

 

[2018DAD]

Mike, great post!

I believe, if I remember right, their ID says: Rank- Cadet. Duty-Student ( if not, it's a very similar wording).
Loved the Ft Collins analogy!! I heard that they were probably going to loose beer in the stadium when it moves back on campus!!
Looking forward to seeing you at TG in a week or so ! GO AF!

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I read that as the poster recognizing the odds and trying to make sure kiddo completes his apps for alternate plans in case plan A doesn't work out. That's not lack of support. That's just good planning. There is no scenario under a kid's control where an academy has "no choice but to pick you up."

If I misread his meaning, I stand corrected. All people should have a plan B and plan C. That said, I won't be letting my son think that someone else stole his spot because he was a white male. My message would have been you didn't try hard enough. As the stats show, 60% are white males and about 50% of qualified applicants get in. In my view, that's not insurmountable odds. Yea.. Some districts are more competitive. Some spots are taken by nepotism, bla bla bla. That's why some re-apply and even re-apply again!

All of us understand that if someone is below average intelligence (1/2 of the people are) and not-so athletic, an applicant probably isn't going to get in.

There is no scenario under a kid's control where an academy has "no choice but to pick you up."

Not in a literal sense. For that matter, your point can be attached to every competitive situation in life. But all too many times, achieving goals don't happen by accident. The more motivated and educated you are at the game (in this case SA admissions) the better your odds.

A wonderful thing about "competition" is that many people don't give it their all and can and leave a lane of opportunity for others. Let's look at the USAFA's stats. 16,000 were interested, thousands didn't complete the application. Hundreds more didn't bother trying to follow-up on the waiver process. We fought hard to get the waiver which both USAFA and USMA admissions assumed it was impossible to get. So perseverance was the exclusive reason he got in. The DoDMERB odds were stacked against him.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Again; not knowing Spirit Mom's sons situation, I'm not speaking of her kids. But if your child is attending one of the military academies, then they are most definitely in the military. They aren't simply "College Students". The good thing is........ It's ok if parents want to think this way. It makes them less anxious and stressed worrying. But their Little Johnny or Joanie happen to "KNOW THE TRUTH". They ARE in the military. And as long as THEY know it; it's ok if mommy and daddy believe otherwise.

It should be blatantly obvious that SA students ARE in the military AND in college. Some people only want to think they are in the military (and not in college) and the other way around. Can we all agree that they are in BOTH?