really?

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by navy2016, Nov 24, 2011.

  1. navy2016

    navy2016 Member

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    I have been waiting for NROTC status change for over 2 months. Everything has been submitted.

    During that time, I have 2 LOA's, but no offers from NROTC.

    Does LOA's conflict with NROTC scholarship offers? Or it is possibly to be overqualified for NROTC?

    I know many people waiting on news from USNA with NROTC scholar offers already.

    stats:
    ACT 35, 33, they converted it 800 and 740 SAT
    ranked 7/266

    Eagle Scout- held virtually every position that existed in scouting
    NHS
    AF JROTC officer

    Soccer and XC
     
  2. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    My DS had stats similar to yours (my DS even had slightly higher SAT scores than you, but only by 30 points, so they are essentially even). DS ultimately got dinged from NROTC in May or late April as I recall (bounced from board to board). I'm not sure whether it was his major, demographic profile, gender, or something else that turned off the NROTC board. DS ultimately decided to go the SA route as his commissioning path and is completely thrilled that the invisible hand of fate guided him.

    So the answer to your question is, "Yes. Really."
     
  3. -Bull-

    -Bull- Member

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    Overqualified? I chuckled....
     
  4. jiller59

    jiller59 Member

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    My son also has similar stats. He is 1/240, with as many AP classes as he could take. No Scouts, but serves on our city government's Youth Advisory Council, president of NHS, student council, Varsity track, Varsity cross country and 3 year Cross Country team captain. He accepted a 4 year NROTC scholarship earlier this month.

    It may depend on your school and major course. His 1st choice was our state school with a Nuclear Engineering major (tier 1).

    Interestingly, after applying to NROTC he started getting letters and phone calls from USNA asking him to "finish the application process" but he wasn't interested in the academy. I guess his NROTC app was submitted by someone as a preliminary USNA app.

    I am no expert, but you sound like a good candidate - hang in there!:smile:
     
  5. navy2016

    navy2016 Member

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    I have heard for civilian colleges, it is possible to be overqualified.

    Example- a person with 2400, 1/x of students, president of this and that, does volunteer work, applies to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Rice- accepted to 2 of the Ivy's but not Rice. Rice is still a very good academic school but not quite at the elite level of top Ivies. The logical explanation was Rice knew this student was using Rice as a safety school.

    I have known someone who fell into a similar crack (with different schools but getting accepted to multiple better schools but not the safety).


    This NROTC application status not changing is driving me crazy. My coordinator and recruiter simply told me to wait.

    I am also a minority and first generation college bound. Theoretically i have these outside advantages...but apparently it hasn't worked.

    Should I try contacting the units I am interested in?
     
  6. crair70

    crair70 Member

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    Maybe a piece of humble pie may help! Ds has nrotc but humbly waiting usna... If you came off in your interview like you did in your post then that may be why. I would suggest sitting on your hands and waiting like all the other qualified/ not over qualified candidates!
     
  7. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    You are correct. Many schools are concerned about their "accepted but not matriculated" statistics (i.e., the number of students to whom they extended offers, but students didn't accept those offers). The goal for middle-tier colleges is to have a low number here, so these schools will often reject students if they appear to be higher-caliber candidatess("Let's reject this student before s/he rejects us!"). There is nothing wrong with that.

    But as for the Navy, I don't think it is an overqualified issue. The Navy has had a bit of a problem in recent years getting the officer corps to look like its enlisted rank and file. Specifically, it has had a problem recruiting from minorities. I am 1000 percent in favor that the officer corps should not be all white males, and the Navy needs to fix this or risk having an officer corps that is "out of touch" (or at least perceived so). This worked to my DS's disadvantage last year in terms of NROTC (he is blond hair/blue eyes). But my DS is truly grateful because he absolutely loves USMA and quite possibly could have been "distracted" with a different career path if NROTC had presented him with an offer. Fate intervened here on his behalf.

    As for any branch of service, for NROTC, the emphasis needs to be on recuiting the best officer class possible, and the emphasis changes from year to year. For example, if the Navy recruits too many folks from one demographic one year, you can expect that that demographic will be at a disadvantage the following year. That's just "Life." For example, at many schools, being an Asian-American can be a disadvantage if that demographic is over-represented.

    You will never know whether last year was the big push for minorities, and now minorities are at a disadvantage this year because the officer ranks are saturated with minorities. You will never know.

    Scholarship money is what any service uses to lure folks into the service. If the Navy needs "Tuba players from Nebraska," those who can play the Tuba and are from Nebraska will get the scholarship money. It is NOT a meritocracy. It is called "recruiting." Everyone needs to remember that scholarships are a recruiting tool, notably NOT an award for doing good work! This is how it truly should be or else it's just a waste of money for the government if their dollars are not achieving their recuiting goals.

    You are an outstanding candidate. Yes, you should contact the units and push every opportunity you can. Educate yourself about the unit and look at last year's threads about how many students received NROTC offers to colleges to which they NEVER applied.

    As for the wait, I know that it is agonizing. It gets even worse in January/February!!! Just know that the NROTC folks are doing the best that is humanly possible in trying to recruit the best officers possible, but there is understandably a lot of "noise and confusion" in that process. I am certain that within 6 months, your path in life will become clear!!!! Have patience. :thumb:

    Your main objective at this point should be to open as many doors as you can. Avoid the temptation to jump through the first door that opens or only to apply for one opportunity (which you obviously have not done!!). Once you have multiple doors open to you, you then carefully evaluate your options and pick the one that is the best fit for you. It is truly agonizing to wait for that last door to answer -- again, resist the temptation to simply go with USMMA or USNA because you havent heard from NROTC yet.

    The weirdest observations that I have made in this process is:

    (1) EVERYONE gets dinged somewhere (often for wholly arbitrary reasons) and no one has a yellow-brick road laid out for them in terms of opportunities (fate really plays a role);

    (2) EVERYONE ultimately finds the "perfect fit." (again, this is fate truly playing a role); and

    (3) Stuff Happens (e.g., you can recieve 1000 LOAs from USNA every day, but your local congressman places you on the nomination list for, say, USAFA (even though you specifically requested USNA) simply because your last name was at the beginning of the alphabetical list of candidates). You need to embrace luck and fate.

    Good luck!!!
     
  8. nuensis

    nuensis USNA 2016

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    Perhaps a bit more patience? Maybe somewhere along the way one of those LOAs will turn into an appointment and you'll have your decision all cut out for you.
     
  9. eagleone

    eagleone Member

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    Humble Pie

     
  10. howacupcake

    howacupcake Member

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    Brian.... why are you worried? YOU GOING TO USNA! you've beat out 14000 other kids. there are thousands that would love to be in your shoes. =) but if something does happen and you cant go to USNA and USMMA, the Nrotc scholarship will probably come around sometime around March....so just be happy and relax! enjoy yourself, you've earned it! the LOA was supposed to lower your stress levels ...not raise it :)
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    howacupcake,

    Believe it or not some candidates for an SA with an LOA and applying for ROTC scholarships still are on the fence.

    It is 2 different lifestyles, and both have positive and negative aspects to each.

    Navy2016 has that LOA, so their mindset maybe different than yours, he has already received the BFE, and is back down to earth of what life will be like at an SA. Their perspective now is about do I want to do 4 yrs at an SA, and the 1st yr sleeping on top of my sheets, or do I want to go to a college on an NROTC scholarship and have a traditional college life. Both will allow him to commission into the Navy AD, just in a different way.

    Really, it is not easy to pick if you are on the fence, especially if Engineering is not your dream academic degree.

    Navy2016,

    The system is simple, just like the SA, highest WCS wins. So, no you aren't overqualified.

    Here's the twist, and one you need to realize. There are many SA cadets/mids that get appointments, but no scholarship. The reason why is the system is different when it comes to selection.

    SA appointments are tied to noms, which are geographically centric. If you are from AK, you are competing for a nom with everyone from AK for the SA. However, for ROTC you are competing for a nom with everyone in the NATION that placed their name on that school list.

    Additionally, although I am not sure about NROTC, I do know for AFROTC they do not superscore, the AFA does, but AFROTC doesn't. They take your best sitting. I leave it to others to state if they superscore, but if they don't your SAT/ACT may actually be lower because you are using what the USNA board used, and not NROTC boards.

    As it has been stated ROTC boards don't care if you are overqualified for the school, it was on your list and they select from there. That is why yr after yr you read someone got a scholarship to the college, but waitlisted by the college, or they didn't get a scholarship, but accepted to the school.

    Lastly, this yr will be very unique due to the failure of the super committee. Although it will not go into effect until FY 13. FY 13 actually starts Oct. 2012. What you may see occur this yr is the bulk of scholarships being held back until the early spring so the DOD can get a handle on where to cut more money. Once they offer the scholarship and you accept, the DOD will assume you will be on scholarship for the next 4 yrs. If they must cut 650 BN additional dollars over the 450 BN they planned for they are going to have to cut deep, and scholarships may be their easiest way to find the pennies. Holding off will allow them to get a handle on this.

    Welcome to the military, hurry up and wait.
     
  12. navy2016

    navy2016 Member

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    Yes, i do hope to be able to consider both NROTC and USNA. The main reason I wished I had a NROTC offer somewhere is because I do not need to spend another 150-300 dollars on application fees/ fees for sending test scores.

    If I have a NROTC scholarship offer to one school, I would apply to that school plus an instate safety versus all 5 schools on my NROTC list plus a few other civilian schools that I might be able to pick up a nice financial aid/merit scholarship package- mainly instates..
     
  13. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    That would be foolish not to apply to all 5 on your list, or at least 3. The reason why is you may be offered a scholarship to a reach school and not get accepted to that college. Meanwhile, you only applied to that 1 school and now you cannot ask NROTC to transfer the scholarship to another unit. A Common practice come spring time is for recipients to ask for a transfer for the scholarship. Your premise is that 1 college will accept you and that is a little pompous.

    The college system has break point/dates like the SAs. Even if the school is a match; you wait for the results of the board you may be at a disadvantage for admissions. Many colleges will admit the majority of their students for ED(non-binding), the minority come out of the RD pool. At our DS and DD's colleges RD is very very competitive. Basically those that were accepted were applying as safeties.

    EA kids on the cusp may be thrown into the ED pool. The ED kid on the cusp may be thrown into the RD pool. Also, by not applying for ED many schools will not allow you to apply for FA/merit or Honors programs. You are hurting yourself in the end.

    Understand the smart candidates always have Plan B because life happens. For example it is not uncommon for the SA appointee to pay the $250 deposit to the ROTC college. The reason why is G Forbid you break your leg or arm June 15th playing LAX or Bball, you would be medically DQ for the USNA, since you would be in a cast for BCT. You must complete BCT.

    A few yrs ago a poster on this site tripped getting off the bus, blew out their knee and was sent home that day as a medical turnback. Luckily for him, his folks paid the deposit, and was able to send him off to the traditional college. He returned a yr later and was a medical turnback again, because they deemed at IDAY he was Med DQ.

    That happens, it is very rare, but it happens. Statistically 5% of the incoming class will not graduate from BCT, some DOR, some are medical. (Only allowed I believe 8 days to be missed during BCT). The yr of the swine flu they had so many sick at the AFA, there was talk of waiving the 8 days. I can't recall if they did or didn't waive in the end.

    This is your Plan B you need to move forward as if it is your Plan A. People plan, God laughs!

    These are just a few reasons why you should apply now even without NROTC results.

    Unless you know without a doubt you are going USNA, and if something bad happens you are okay with going to your CC for a yr., than don't apply to colleges until you get notified. However, if you are on the fence apply to the colleges now.

    I believe in hoping for the best, but always be prepared for the worst.
     
  14. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    Totally agree with Pima. Candidates should open as many doors as possible at this point. Then, in the spring, select from the best option available.

    As for SA v. ROTC school, there are many other factors to consider than simply lifestyle. For example, at large research institutions, there may be more opportunities to participate in research for aspiring scientists, etc. But don't waste too much time evaluating until all of your options are known.
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Patentesq,

    I agree it is not only lifestyle, but also academic pursuits.

    For example, although the SA's offer degrees in non-tech fields, the fact is if you look at their required academic classes (at least AFA), you will spend 4 yrs taking a lot of math and science classes. It might not be your dream to take organic chemistry as a GOVT major.

    Additionally, using our child as an example; his intention has always been to be a career officer, and when he retires to go and work in the political world. One reason he opted go AFROTC was because the school he attends required as an Honors student in the Govt program to intern on the Hill. That was a draw for him.

    He had a 36 M ACT, 720 M SAT, AP Calc, but hated Math. He reviewed what his academic requirements were going to be at the AFA and decided it wasn't for him.

    Finally, he was also an AF dependent for 18 yrs of his life. As much as he wants to do 20, he decided for 4 yrs, he wanted to be as close to a civilian as he could possibly get.

    The point is although a candidate may have an LOA or an apptmt to an SA, it is not wrong for them to move forward and take up one of those scholarships.

    They worked for it. You may believe it is an easy decision to take an SA over ROTC, but honestly that is your perspective, and for others it isn't easy. There are personal factors that go into the equation.

    That is also why Navy2016 should move forward as if he has no apptmt to USNA.

    Second thoughts are natural, but if you close the doors the luxury of 2nd thoughts are non-existent.
     
  16. dunninla

    dunninla Member

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    well, that's the problem with written communication -- you cannot tell the tone, inflection, body language of the writer.

    I don't think OP was being arrogant, or impatient (well, not any more impatient than the average person). It is true that outside the NROTC/Annapolis world, there IS INDEED a yield game played by some colleges, known as the Tufts Syndrome. To summarize, this is when an admissions committee determines the applicant will very likely get into Top 10 schools, and therefore why should Tufts (ranked #28, I think in USNWR) impair its yield (#attending/#accepted) when they are 99% sure the applicant will turn them down for a higher ranked school? Being turned down is not benign -- a school's Yield is part of the scoring system USNWR uses in ranking colleges. Washington University in St. Louis has often also been included in the Tufts Syndrome discussion.

    All OP was really asking is whether NROTC might participates in "Tufts Syndrome" thinking.

    Oh, to answer OP's question, I do not think the NROTC Scholarship Board intentionally avoids offering scholarships to applicants it thinks are a shoe-in for the Academy.
     
  17. patentesq

    patentesq Parent

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    Agreed. The OP is a totally legitimate question.

    My response of "Yes, really" is still my response, though. :smile: To this day, I don't understand the responses by many posters to the effect: "If you have an LOA to an SA, why would you even consider anything else?" The fact is that 99% of the candidates will change their "top choice" school multiple, Multiple, MULTIPLE times before April.

    In my view, every candidate for a Service Academy should postpone any decision until his or her options have been carefully evaluated, including spending an overnight visit, asking many "on the fence" questions here on SAF, and attending classes at the SA and other schools (if academics are important to the candidate). By thinking critically and weighing all options does not mean the candidate is somehow less interested in the SA or something else; rather, he or she is just being careful and deliberate about his or her decisionmaking (each decision is inherently limited to the individual applicant). Asking questions such as the one posed by Navy2016 is perfectly legitimate.

    While I'm at it, let me just say that there is also a misconception that those who elect to go to a civilian school (for lifestyle or any other reason) are somehow less committed to military service than others. Hogwash. Every year, many SA cadets leave the academy because they ultimately conclude "it's not for them." While stuff does happen along the way in life and circumstances change, candidates should do everything they can to avoid that scenario. This actually hurts the SA, the military, and every other candidate that was denied the opportunity to attend the SA (many of whom have held this as a life-long dream).

    In my view, if a candidate wants to enjoy a civilian lifestyle at a traditional college campus before spending a career in, say, the U.S. Navy SEALs, they have every right to follow that path.

    Candidates should not feel inhibited about posting questions on this forum that are perfectly legitimate. This includes benefits about the pros and cons of each alternative commissioning path.
     
  18. larry2013

    larry2013 Member

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    for NROTC scholarship candidates - I believe by applying for the scholarship you ARE listing 5 schools that YOU ARE APPLYING TO and would consider. One's word is their essence. Good luck larrys mom
     

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