Reapplying

Yea; it also seems like the "NORM" is to finish college in 5 or 6 years. My daughter is getting ready to graduate from college this coming year. It is her 4th year. We've actually had friends, neighbors, etc... ask us if she transferred a lot of college credit from a community college or if she tool college classes during high school. I told them; no this is just her regular schedule.

Even if you only take 15 credits per semester, you should be able to graduate in 4 years. Many of my daughter's classes were 4 credit classes. She ALWAYS took at least 5 classes; getting 15-17 credits per semester. Many kids say 5-6 years is normal now because "College is Harder" than when we went. Sorry, but the answer is; "Many kids have no idea what they're doing, aren't ready for college, and they change their major and classes. Plus, Many only take 12 credits". 12 is considered a "Full Time Student". Oh well, I guess not everything improves for the best.

If a person is interested in the academy, they better be ready to do around 18 credits each semester on average. Later... Mike.....
 
Time for the cadet perspective, harsh like the rest.

The average class load here is between 18-21 hours. Less than 18 happens rarely, and 21 is more common. That's including athletic requirements, training, military, etc. Our academics are tough, many times considered a spoon-fed ivy league set of classes. People worked for years, sacrificing many opportunities or fun times in order to enter the academy. Other college students trying to get in had a job, 18 credit hours, and worked out daily in order to enter.

What am I getting at? If you are not willing to dedicate this year to entering the academy by taking the hardest courses, taking 18 credits, etc. because you don't think you can hack the grades or its too hard, then don't bother coming. We expect more and don't tolerate half-efforts. Plenty of others are willing to put in the time and effort necessary.
 
Believe me, i am taking the hardest courses and as many as i can take! In the case of UGA, I'm not allowed to register for more than 17 hours so that's the best I can do. I've been working out daily now and I have a job. This is my goal.
 
That wouldn't really be worth it. One more hour would only add a PE or Freshman seminar which would be like the history of chocolate or something. My ALO said 17 was good enough.
Hornetguy mentioned that the academy load is 18-21 hours, but that includes athletics and military training so that would make sense for it to be more. Academically, 17 will be enough, and I'll also be participating in atleast one club sport and doing some other stuff. Throw that in there and it will be equivalent to the academy hours... if i interpret correctly.
 
I think too many people are pushing this guy a lot harder than is necessary. USAFA hopeful is still working towards his goal. He's planning on applying for next year, which is better than most who are denied acceptance. It's not like his college life is going to be easier than almost anyone in high school. A college course isn't a walk in the park. It isn't even in the same ballpark as an AP course. 17 hours is certainly fine, because as hornetguy has said, the 18-21 hours is your entire life at the Academy. At the Academy, you aren't doing outside activities during the week until your 1st Class year. Hopeful's got a job, sports team, and will participate in activities with civilians (as anyone at a private university should). I don't want to be harsh to anyone who wishes to give advice to a young man, but you aren't his parents. He is his own person who can take care of himself. While suggestions are nice, pushing him to take certain courses isn't the purpose of these forums. To tell him he has to do certain things is bordering on the point of rudeness. I thought peer pressure was something we were supposed to resist, not create.

I'm not here to say the road to the Academy is easy. You have to work your bottom off. You can't lose focus. But at the same time, it doesn't have to be hell. Be a well-rounded individual (work on those SAT scores and try ACT) and don't kill yourself in one area just to fail three others.

Just my $0.02
 
Hornetguy mentioned that the academy load is 18-21 hours, but that includes athletics and military training so that would make sense for it to be more. Academically, 17 will be enough, and I'll also be participating in atleast one club sport and doing some other stuff. Throw that in there and it will be equivalent to the academy hours... if i interpret correctly.
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Not quite. 18-21 (6-7 classes) is only the academic load. Add another 0.5-1.0 credits for PE per semester for PE classes. You must keep in shape to do well on the PFT and AFT. Military requirements have no credits and are another part of life on top of both academics and athletics. We all play intermural sports if we are not Intercollegiate athletes.

Norton - I'm not going to try and presume your background, but it seems like you don't understand some of the concepts we use at the academy and are trying to use them here. If he doesn't like the toughness or if we seem rude, he doesn't have to stay. This is an online forum, no one can make him do anything. Being denied and continuing to try is hardly an excuse to use to justify an easier college schedule. Good on him for reapplying, make it worth it. Those 18-21 hours are NOT our entire life by a long shot. The military requirements and jobs plus athletics plus any clubs or organizations or committees weigh on top of that. As far as "outside activities," we can leave during the week at any point (just more often BOTH 2nd and 1st class years), most "activities" that we do are in the cadet area with teams/clubs/organizations. Please don't try to compare apples and oranges, the academy is far different from civilian college.

I'll be harsh. I am a cadet and I KNOW what it took to get here and what this place is. We are not his parents, but you know what, I am going to give him the cold, hard truth. No sugar coating. That is the purpose of this forum. That includes suggested classes, activities, athletics, etc. We have been there and done that or have a family member doing the same. In fact, peer pressure is the training tool in a sense that we use to make civilians into cadets and into officers. Cadets mold the incoming classes. That is our job and our purpose. Don't like it? This is a forum, no one makes you come here or stay here.
 
Just a mom mentioned this a few posts back about being able to contact an admissions officer to inquire about weaknesses that prevented an appointment. Would we contact our admissions counselor about this?
 
yes, that would be best. Also, you said your ALO gave you advice. Follow it.
 
Times do indeed change.

Checked my USAFA transcript. The "lightest" semester I had was 18 hours, the toughest was 27 and I remember THAT semester very well to this day!

OUCH!

Steve
 
Yes, Hornet responded pretty quick to the previous posts. As he mentioned, the 18-21 credits at the academy are JUST the academic section. Then there's all the other time consuming issues. Couple hours a day of intramural sports. If you're an IC Athlete, even more hours a day. That is time taken away from you where you can't use for studying. Then there's the inconvenience of trying to study with classmates who happen to NOT be in your particular squadron. In which case you aren't allowed in each other's dorm rooms, so you have to arrange study time in the library. (The only real sanctuary). Then there's not only the military training, but the day to day military duties you have to perform. At the academy, you learn to manage 26 hours into a 24 hour day. You don't even think about how many credits you're taking, because it doesn't matter. You're going to take them anyway.

You are correct that we aren't his parents, but Hornet is correct that we CAN'T sugar coat the situation and falsely make someone "Feel Good". The reason the academy offers 1700 appointments, is because they KNOW that 300-400 of those people are going to turn it down to go to another high level school. The reason they allow 1300-1400 to enter BCT, is because they know that 50-100 won't make it through the 5-6 weeks. (Medically or Because they don't like it). The reason they allow the 1300 +/- to start class, is because they know that within the next 2-4 years, 300-350 will either quit or not be able to handle the academics/military requirements of the academy. Hornet is absolutely correct in not "Sugar Coating" the situation. The academy is planning on 950-1000 to graduate in 4 years.

No one was using Peer Pressure to get Hopeful to take certain classes. Let's be 100% clear and honest here. (NO SUGAR AT ALL). The fact that Hopeful was not accepted directly for an appointment for the class of 2012, puts him at a disadvantage when applying to the class of 2013. Not saying he can't get in; just that it will definitely be more difficult than the High School Seniors he will be competing against.

First; he has to COMPETE with HIMSELF to fix/improve on whatever area(s) it was that kept him from receiving an appointment this past year.

Second; The average GPA, which includes all the recruited athletes that some people want to dog, was 3.86. Imaging if there weren't Recruited Athletes who "SUPPOSEDLY" bring the stats down? (FWIW, there's a lot of Recruited athletes that had 3.86 or HIGHER GPA). This GPA included the IB Program and AP classes. As a "COLLEGE STUDENT", his GPA will be assessed differently.

Third; The caliber, GPA, Backgrounds, etc... of the class of 2013 candidates is NOT going to be any LOWER than the class of 2012, 2011, 2010, etc... So what makes Hopeful think they automatically will be accepted this coming year? Refer to my FIRST point above. He has to compete with himself. He has to have HIGHER SCORES this year than last year. But he has to talk to his ALO and admissions counselor and find out what areas he was weak on compared to the average applicant. If he goes through the entire process similar to last year, he probably will not get accepted. Why should he? His score would be about the same.

Finally; as much as no one wants to admit it, the psychology of being on a board where you select Yay and Nay, is a personal experience. I have been there. And as much as you try and be open minded and objective, if you see someone who "Was there before" but didn't make it; it makes you look DEEPER at that person. It won't say WHY they weren't chosen last year. But they will look closer at him. They want to know "WHY" you weren't accepted last year.

So, the bottom line is; if Hopeful truly wants the air force academy to be his future, then he has to work at it. He has to be BETTER than last year. His classes have to be HARDER than last year. His grades have to be HIGHER than last year. His CFA scores have to be MORE than last year. When they look at his application and resume, the first thing through the mind of the board has got to be; "Damn, this kid really wants this". Sorry, but your 2nd time around is harder than the first time around. (Academically for sure). You have to prove that you didn't graduate high school and started skating. Anyway, this is indeed just my opinion. But it's also my experience. I spent 21 years in the Air Force. I've seen a lot of people apply to the academy, ROTC, OTS. I've been on a lot of boards. If you really want this, then error on the side of caution. Do the best at everything. Now, if you know for a fact that you will get a "C" in Physics or Chem, then obviously you might not want to take that risk. But other than that, you need to be better, stronger, faster, etc... than you were last year. Later... Mike....
 
Jumping in late, but I admit that I agree with everyone else. If you want it than listen to them! They got in, they are surviving the program right now. When DS applied last yr, we were very, very mean parents:eek:

Not only did we make him carry the hardest courses, but we also made him do jump start (went to CC 1/2 day, hs 1/2 day) We forced him to take 5 classes per semester...2 at the hs, 3 at the cc. He was only required to take 4 ea semester. In the end his sr yr he took 10 courses instead of 8...4 were AP(hs classes) the other 6 were CC.

He also worked as a lifeguard 20 hrs a week, took flying lessons every week, worked on Habitat for Humanity.

When he was home, we also forced him to eat sitting at attention, and chewing only 7 bites. Put a pull up bar in his room and made him do at least 5 everytime he entered or left. Forced him to run at least 3x a week. And made him do the full CFA at least 1x a week.

Also made him clean his room to my standards within 5 minute notice! He is a typical kid...not very neat! Removed the XBOX 360 for a few weeks.

After doing this for about 6 mos. DS decided he didn't want the AFA, b/c he wanted to be a college kid and go the ROTC route. Understand DS has all intentions of making the AF a career, but he saw his father become a successful officer without attending the AFA and decided to take the other route. This is not to suggest in means that the AFA commissions amazing officers, it is only to say that for our DS ROTC is a better path! Graduating is the only way to get a commission and the AFA is not only about classes (DS is a poli-sci major, never wanted engineering), it is about the life you will endure 24/7.

My point is use this year and force yourself to live the AFA life at home to the best of your ability. Get up @ 5:30 no matter what your class schedule is. do at least an hour of PT everyday. Get admissions to allow you to take more credits. If you are not willing to endure the pain for a yr, there is no way that you will make it for 4 yrs!

Finally do yourself a favor download the course curriculum and try to mimic it. The final deciding factor for our DS was he had no desire to take the courses that were mandated. As I said he is majoring in International Studies, not computers or engineering

Best of Luck!

Just listen to these people and follow their directions, you will have a better chance of acceptance.

BTW I thought they change the ALO of you go up for the 2nd time...is that an old wives tale?
 
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I agree that the OP should contact his college and add at least one more meaty course to his load. Last year, both my sons took 16 credits each semester at the local college, had a 2/3 high school schedule, competed in out of town tournaments every other weekend, practiced every day for 2-4 hours, and both had parttime jobs of about 14-18 hours/week. They graduated 1st and 2nd in their class (of 900+).

Whether you eventually make it into the Academy or not, why not push yourself? See what you are really made of? If you look closely, there is probably a clause in your college handbook that will tell you, you may indeed register for more than 18 credits, but you have to pay more in tuition.

I don't want to discourage you too much, but I want the people who are defending my freedom to be the absolute best people they can be! I don't want someone who shies away from the tough stuff "just in case."
 
Thanks guys. I understand that I'm going to have to bust my butt if i really want this thing and I do. One thing that Christcorp pointed out that I had a question about.

The fact that Hopeful was not accepted directly for an appointment for the class of 2012, puts him at a disadvantage when applying to the class of 2013. Not saying he can't get in; just that it will definitely be more difficult than the High School Seniors he will be competing against.
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I'm not 100 percent on this but I have talked to someone who went to high school with me that's at the academy now, and he explained to me that being a college student in ROTC had an edge over a high school student. Can someone explain this?
 
I was also just curious, Is there anyone on this thread who's been in a position before they were denied the first year and got in the second year?
 
We have a friend from the class of 05 who turned down the academy for her freshman year, then had to go through the whole process again. She was granted the nom/apptment the 2nd time - and swam for the academy.

We know a bunch of kids who were assigned to the prep school who got the nom and appointment the 2nd year.

Maybe Christcorp is correct - but you can still prove yourself to the nominating board or MOC. Just do everything you can, and do your best at everything.

Skip the keggers and go to the library!
 
When I said you are at a disadvantage, it shouldn't be taken as though that means you can't get in. What I meant by that is; There was a reason you didn't get accepted. Let's say your GPA; e.g 3.65 unweighted, was one of the major reasons. Well now, you're no longer in High School. So, the only way to compensate for that GPA is to take college courses and to excel in them. Let's say the board didn't see the "Whole Person" concept they were looking for. E.g. No real sports or leadership positions. Well, it's a lot harder to do those things in college as a freshman compared to high school.

Yes, ROTC is a GREAT THING. It will definitely help you. But when someone says that it puts you ahead of a high school student; that's assuming all things otherwise being equal between you and the high school student. Remember, you are competing with students from your state for a nomination. Obviously, you know that a nomination isn't always enough. My point was that in high school, you had a lot more opportunities to fill in many of the squares. PLUS; less was expected of a high school student than a college student. For the college student, they want to see ALL THE SAME things the high school student has; PLUS A LOT MORE because you're a college student now. Plus; if your package made it to the review board, then there's a good chance that they will know that you applied last year. They may question that. Remember, there are no hard fast rules to the board. They are humans. The most important thing is to find out where your weaknesses were the previous time, and build on fixing those. Then all the academics and such that you boasted in last year's application, you need to BUILD ON THOSE by taking similar but more advanced classes in the same subjects.

The best analogy; even though it's not really accurate; would be this. Let's assume that all your board scores this past cycle equaled a number score of 675 points. (Doesn't matter the breakdown). Now, assume you didn't get an appointment and you applied the next year. Let's assume that instead of going back to college, you took a full time job and submitted everything exactly as you did the first cycle. Do you honestly think you total board score would STILL BE 675 points????? VERY UNLIKELY. There's the disadvantage. They will see that you didn't do anything for an entire year. They will mark you DOWN in the motivational/self improvement/leadership type areas. Your ALO would probably give you a lower score. The list goes on. So, the disadvantage is that you have to not only fix the weaknesses from the previous cycle, but you have to continue where you left off and do HARDER classes in those subjects and get BETTER scores. Yes, ROTC will definitely help. That's because it's an additional leadership involvement. Remember, there's a lot of students who do the JR ROTC, Civil Air Patrol, Boy Scouts, Boy's State, etc... NONE of these things gives you an advantage over someone else; IF, LET ME QUALIFY; No advantage, IF the other person has a suitable substitute. Realize that Civil Air Patrol, Jr Rotc, etc... doesn't give you EXTRA points compared to the student who did Boy's State, President of the local National Honor Society, etc... Imagine ALL this activities on a long list. Image 100 different activities. From ROTC to boy scouts to president of the stamp club, etc... They know you can't do all of them. They don't want you to do all of them. But they expect every cadet that is selected to have done SOME of them. So ROTC is important. But the only advantage is over someone who hasn't done anything else.

So, continue with your plan. It's a good plan. Just think in your mind that all the high school classes you took; basically take the same type of classes but at the college level. And do well in them. And find out where your weaknesses were last year and fix those.
 
I do not know if this is true, but I read that last year they had more candidate files opened than previous yrs, which means more people competing for noms. I wouldn't be shocked if this was true since top tier colleges had more applicants than ever. If that occurs again this yr, you will be fighting against more applicants for a nom. The only 1 that you can be guaranteed to receive is a Presidential.

Now that being said...DON'T GIVE UP!, just realize you want to show growth and a harder schedule than you had before. Get active in college activities, have a job, carry the most credits.

I know when our DS was deciding between ROTC and the AFA, the commander had told him, if you change your mind and decide that you want to go to the AFA after your freshman year we will support you for a ROTC nom. Talk to your commander, maybe he/she can assist you.
 
I understand that it will be harder to complete activities in college, but I'm also assuming activities completed in high school will count for something right? I will probably only have time for one sport in college but in high school I did three sports every year and lettered in all of them and was also a part of boy scouts (eventually becoming an eagle scout).
I've already been in contact with my det commander about ROTC noms but they don't sound very promising. The academy only reserves 20 appts for that nomination category.
 
Talked to my admissions counselor about last year. I asked her what was weak and she said the CFA, SAT scores, and she recommended making a good first impression with my ALO (kinda late now).
 
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