Reconciling

[nosmileysforme]

"And ignore the comment about the terror going away. It doesn't."

Thankfully the terror and doubt that can sometimes rage through the mind of a parent trying to come to grips with their children's decision to become combat leaders does diminish and fade. Or perhaps more precisely, at least for my wife and I it has. I also hope it does for the rest of those parents who's sons and daughters might see combat in the coming years.

I expect when my son is deployed there will be plenty of time to worry about his well being. But I will also trust in his abilities and the abilities those commanders above and those solders below him in the chain of command. Will I be worried? Of course. Will I be terrified? I can't be certain I won't, but having met many veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan at West Point, some of whom are students, others of whom are instructors, I honestly don't think I will. Those veterans project a confidence and competence that I, at least, find reassuring.

I hope USNA69 that you will eventually get the same kind of relief I have, and that I expect OldProp will have over time.

 

[USNA69]

I expect when my son is deployed there will be plenty of time to worry about his well being.

Brave words for someone who has not been there. Get back to me in four years or so.

 

[nosmileysforme]

"Brave words for someone who has not been there. Get back to me in four years or so."

Are you always this optimistic or are you just having a particularly good day?

I think what you are referring to, and what OldProp is experiencing, are two different things. OldProp's son hasn't yet been through R-day; you're referring to, I assume, a son who's deployed. The distinction isn't difficult to discern but perhaps you're not seeing that so clearly right now.

 

[jamzmom]

Much can & will happen during the next four years. I have not come to any conclusions about where my kid will end up at the end of this journey. It seems to change with the winds as new opportunities are found out. I pray most academy parents will come to understand their child's heart in wanting to serve their country & find peace in it. I hate to sound so "Polly-Anna" but now watching the beginnings of a third year of an academy service education, I trust with all my heart that these kids are receiving an education like no other in that they are learning to the best of their abilities to take care of their own lives & the lives of others.

 

[USNA69]

I think what you are referring to, and what OldProp is experiencing, are two different things. OldProp's son hasn't yet been through R-day; you're referring to, I assume, a son who's deployed. The distinction isn't difficult to discern but perhaps you're not seeing that so clearly right now.

I think I know exactly that to which OldProp is referring. He is trying to disassociate himself from any lingering thoughts that perhaps, maybe even subconsciously, he played too active a part in his son's decision to attend WP.

The concerns, fears, terrors, or however one wishes to label them associated with dropping your son off at the front door of a SA being different than the concerns, fears, or terrors associated with his first operational mission are different? You've got me there unless you happen to be terrified of a 'C' in economics or maybe a difficulty in learning to march.

News coverage of modern warfare is different. I did an interview with CNN four years ago about this. Maybe we can get them to dust it off. In my day in Vietnam, correspondence was a once-a-week hastily written letter to mom and dad which, by constraints of time, covered little facts. Now, with emails, satellite phones, embedded reporters, and a plethoria of live coverage by the media, you will know when, why, how, and where. You will know that the jet CNN is showing launching on Cat 3 is your son and two hours later when the night skies of Baghdad light up, you will know who they are welcoming. All the training and skills in the world doesn't negate one lucky bullet (they call it the "golden BB").

So again, I ask you to wait until you know what you are talking about before you get too involved in this conversation.

 

[nosmileysforme]

"So again, I ask you to wait until you know what you are talking about before you get too involved in this conversation."

I think I'm qualified to help OldProp with his feelings, as are the many other parents who have contributed here who's sons and daughters have not yet been deployed. Your suggestion is declined.

 

[nurseypoo]

nosmileysforme-

No, usna69 isn't having a particularly good or bad day; he's just a straight shooter.

Both- Please don't start a war of words on this thread. This is not why I put my very private feelings (and in retrospect, maybe I shouldn't have) out here to where I thought others might feel the same and might have wise words.

OldProp hit upon one of my very deep seeded feelings; potentially playing a part in a process where my son may potentially give up his life.

Let's be supportive of one another. We are all looking at it from differing view points and as I-Day, R-Day quickly approaches. Time is too precious, right now.

 

[nosmileysforme]

"No, usna69 isn't having a particularly good or bad day; he's just a straight shooter."

I've no objection to this, only his insistence that he's the only one qualified to discuss these matters. We're not talking quantum physics here; we're talking shared experiences. I'm not sure what makes usna69 think he's the only one who's gone through this, but he's completely wrong.

"OldProp hit upon one of my very deep seeded feelings; potentially playing a part in a process where my son may potentially give up his life."

And mine as well; that's why I and so many others contributed where we otherwise seldom do.

"Let's be supportive of one another. We are all looking at it from differing view points and as I-Day, R-Day quickly approaches. Time is too precious, right now."

Amen.

 

[nurseypoo]

Okay, then take this thread over with arguing. It'll be no different from cc.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Go get 'em Nurseypoo!
Seems like two gentlemen are in a war of words this morning.....both are right and both are wrong - how is that for taking sides?? haha

Anyway - as parents we could go on and on about how our assistance could potentially lead our children to harm -
How about allowing our kids to drive? give them keys to the car and they could get in an accident. Allow them to go hiking in the woods they could fall off a cliff.... I can go on and on. We as parents have nothing to feel guilty about by assisting and encouraging our kids to reach a goal.

There are few instances where kids do this all by themselves. For those that do, kids being kids, perhaps the lack of parental help drives them even more. Dad says don't - kid says watch me.

As for feeling guilty that we have assisted in putting our kids in harms way - don't. Don't waste even one second on that. If you feel that way then your should have raised him/her in a rubber room. How does that compare to the guilt you would feel if those feelings are transferred to your son/daughter and used them as an excuse to quit when the going gets rough?
There are lots of woulda/coulda/shoulda's in life. Live dont dwell.

Parental feelings of fear - I think it is natural when you realize they reached their goal to have a nagging "what have I/we done" voice in the back of your head. I got it when my daughter got her medical waiver - last hurdle for the Army.
But, it is way too soon to continue to dwell on that. They will be safe for the next few years. They have school and aren't going to ship out tomorrow. No need to get those fearful feelings until graduation. Or maybe when their commitment kicks in!

So folks - calm down, take a deep breath and take this process in baby steps. Our graduating seniors have not actually done anything yet. They are just beginning.

 

[jamzmom]

LET’S SING!

Oh there are no Navy pilots down in hell!
DOWN IN HELL!
Oh there are no Navy pilots down in hell!
DOWN IN HELL!
Oh the place is full of ******, Army pilots, bombardiers…
But there are no Navy pilots down in hell!
DOWN IN HELL!

Oh the Army & the Navy had a club!
HAD A CLUB!
Oh the Army & the Navy had a club!
HAD A CLUB!
Oh the Army paid the dues, and the Navy drank the booze….
Oh the Army & the Navy had a club!
HAD A CLUB!

Altogether!!!

SING GLORIOUS! VICTORIOUS!
ONE KEG O’ BEER FOR THE FOUR OF US!
SINGING ‘GLORY BE TO GOD’ THAT THERE ARE NO MORE OF US,
‘CAUSE ONE OF US COULD DRINK IT ALL ALONE!
PASS THE BEER, PASS THE BEER, TO THE REAR OF THE CHORUS!


I haven't had to do that in a while. I feel better & I know Z does as well. New parents trying to cope with all these crazy nerves aren't going to benefit from bickering. Just keep posting thoughts/advice & try to stay away from the personal attacks per the rules folks. The point of my last post was that in four years time, it will be impossible to predict where our kids will be & what their service will entail. Just hate to see anyone just beginning this journey see doomsday.

 

[nurseypoo]

Too bad they don't have a snarling, saliva dripping, mad dog type smiley. That'd be me! Maybe TN should get one of those.

I'm not planning out anyone's funeral, but it is in the back of my mind. I think it doesn't help when children that go to school with the boy ask him when he's going over there (Iraq). They just don't GET it. Then after he's done explaining he has to go to school first, they ask the same thing. I think they may all have blond tendencies (I say this as a blond).

I realize we have to take baby steps and we're only beginning (sounds almost like a Carpenter's song, don't ya' think? ). It's always there, and hopefully in four years, he'll realize his dream and have another five years to train. Maybe then, there will be some progress made over in the middle east.

However, just like JAM said, everyone has a point. Let's be respectful.

 

[nurseypoo]

I LOVE THAT SONG!!!!!

 

[USNA69]

This entire thread has been outstanding. Nurseypoo demonstrated an amazing amount of fortitude in broaching the subject. I commend her. It is extremely difficult to bare one’s soul to an anonymous forum.

The initial posts were all some version of “if something should happen, at least they were fulfilling their life dreams”. I am now going to bare my soul. I think this is the only way I could justify that if something happens to my son, that I could go on. Even though I did everything I could do dissuade him from attending the Academy (for other reasons), finally, almost ten years after graduation, I feel that I could say that he was living out his life’s dream.

Now OldProp comes along and, perhaps I am reading more into his post than was meant to be, but he appears concerned that his actions somehow contributed positively to his son’s appointment. A “feel good” response of “don’t worry, you will learn to live with it and the world will probably be a better place when he graduates” is both naïve and irresponsible. There will be revolutions with the accompanying Embassy evacuations with one or both of the warring factions not wanting us to leave peacefully. We all remember the attempted Iran hostage rescue. Once, it took me two nights to realize that the SAR mission that I was participating in by carrying a full SEAL team, none dressed in swim gear and all armed to the teeth, was not a typical SAR mission. Our government thought the Soviets were piloting another country’s aircraft and in an attempt to embarrass both parties, was attempting to lure one of their aircraft close enough to the beach to shoot it down, and parade the Soviet pilot which we were supposed to capture. The list goes on and on. The Class of 2011 will be sent in harm’s way, guaranteed, probably many times. That is the sole reason they are being trained and educated. And the sole reason they should be attending.

As a BGO, I have interviewed in excess of 100 qualified candidates. I know there are parents who want a service academy education for their child more than the child wants it himself. The parental portion of these interviews usually involve the parents dominating the conversation talking about either the quality, prestige, or cost of the Academy education. A quick variation of the statement about how proud they must be that their son or daughter is actually willing to desire a career of defending their country and risking their life, usually brings a deathly still to the conversation. I actually have had a candidate call me the next day, thank me profusely for causing his parent to see the light, and withdraw his application.

So, my question to you as parents, if you feel you maybe contributed excessively to your child’s appointment, what should I tell you? I do know what I am talking about. I have numerous friends who have had sons and daughters fight in either the first Gulf War or in Iraq and/or Afghanistan. Our soul searching went so far as to question our apparently enjoying our careers so much that our sons wanted to be just like us.

Supporting parents are the best thing in the world for a midshipman/cadet. Overbearing ones are a hurdle which must eventually be overcome. Support them, listen to them, develop a bond with both them and their careers. Know enough about their career that they can talk intelligently to you and you will know what they are talking about. Don’t dissuade them from a particular career path because it is “too dangerous.” Allow them to grow and live their dream unimpeded by your concerns. If both your dreams were that they fly and one day they call and tell you they are going subs, support them. If they suddenly decide they don’t want to drive ships and want to be a SEAL, support them. It is their life and their dream.

My sincerest thanks to all the nurturing and caring parents who have raised their young men and women to desire to spend their lives in support of our country's defense.

 

[nosmileysforme]

"you'll hope that over the next four or five years the world situation, or at least our role in it, will improve."

does not equal...

“the world will probably be a better place when he graduates”

But a very good post usna69.

 

[USNA69]

"you'll hope that over the next four or five years the world situation, or at least our role in it, will improve."

does not equal...

“the world will probably be a better place when he graduates”

I apologize if I inadvertently gave you the impression that I was quoting you. My attempt was a compilation of the several posts that alluded to the world situation changing in the next few years.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[nosmileysforme]

You're very welcome usna69. While we may have small, almost infinitesimal, quibbles from time to time, I do appreciate and acknowledge the value and the experience behind your posts.

 

[WAMom68]

USNA69 - excellent post!

A “feel good” response of “don’t worry, you will learn to live with it and the world will probably be a better place when he graduates” is both naïve and irresponsible. The Class of 2011 will be sent in harm’s way, guaranteed, probably many times. That is the sole reason they are being trained and educated. And the sole reason they should be attending.

Last night, over dinner at my Mother's house, we had a conversation just like this. My Mom (grandmother to my soon to be USMA plebe) says how she is hoping the war in Iraq is over before my son graduates in 2011. I had to point out to her that even if it is, there will most likely be another place that he will be sent to and it may be even more dangerous. I wasn't trying to worry her, I was just trying to give her a reality check.

Don’t dissuade them from a particular career path because it is “too dangerous.” Allow them to grow and live their dream unimpeded by your concerns. If both your dreams were that they fly and one day they call and tell you they are going subs, support them. If they suddenly decide they don’t want to drive ships and want to be a SEAL, support them. It is their life and their dream.

Exactly why I don't try to talk my son out of his goal of becoming an Infantry officer - as scary as that is to a Mom. He has three years to get through before picking a branch so he may change his mind, but whatever he chooses I will support him.

My sincerest thanks to all the nurturing and caring parents who have raised their young men and women to desire to spend their lives in support of our country's defense.

Yesterday we went to a luncheon for all accepted candidates in our state. Two different speakers mentioned how impressive it is that (in our area at least) we have not had a dropoff in applications to USMA even though our country is at war.

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread. It is wonderful to have a place to talk about these feelings.

 

[OldProp]

Thanks for the words

I cringed as soon as I sent my thoughts before - bit too much on the sleeve really.

But thought I would clarify.

Just want to make sure that no one is confused in the role we played in our son's admission. The idea and the eventual acceptance were all his doing and his idea.

I thought it was almost a benign quest that started 2 years ago, and that it would serve to sharpen up his grades and his application of effort and time during the junior year at high school and help him get into a good school. I really didnt think he would make it.

But then there it was, smack-gob, he was admitted to USMA. And he accepted.

His mom is working with VA hospitals and week in week out she is seeing the boys with their mangled bodies getting put back together. She reports the kids now line the hallways in gurneys and chairs as the common areas are filled up – this is for processing and once in the system they seem very well cared for – but it is a horrible sight. One aspects of the current war is that most casualties are from the IEDs which produce casualties of a gruesome sort in multitudes more than the deaths that are the headlines.

She hates this whole idea. She was at first insisting that he accompany her to work one day, but she has dropped that idea and realizes all it would do is apease her concern but not do anything for him.

I spend little thought on the education he will receive at USMA or the quality of that school than simply it is one of the world’s best. I get very confused with those who glibly talk about how the education is “free” . I find it almost insulting considering what my son is setting out to do and given the preceeding paragraph. I personsally think it is one of the world’s most expensive school tuitions. A student going to Harvard doesn’t have to sign a pact that he has a 5% shot of being maimed or killed by the time he is 30.

I imagine he might have made it in to USMA on his own. But how many of you went through times like that terrible 4 weeks in October where your son/daughter could only throw the basketball 40 feet until you figured out the technique that got it to 70 feet? Or he could only do 3 pull-ups and then figured out a training regime with you so he got it to the minimum 6. Or that stunning “D” in calculus in November that seemed to have blown all hope to hell? But you picked him up? How many of you were up at dawn at whats seemed every morning getting him/her out running. Or stayed on their ass to make sure they match academic “deed” to “the plan”. Or kept their morale going after times when they met cadets on a visit and came back with doubts and said “I don’t think I am that good dad - those guys are good.” And you pointed out that those cadets were young men and he was still only a teen in Grade 11. It is likely small in the realm of things, my contribution, but I suspect he might not have made it otherwise. Might. I will never know. And anyway he could be bounced in Beast or Plebe. But I don’t think so. I certainly was not even a small contribution to establishing his goal and his dream, that was all him.

I just came back from some gathering of other parents with their “accepted cadet applicant” and it helps a lot to see this crew of kids who are obviously the most superior and poised group of kids I have ever seen in one place. And to see my son talk to them as a peer to a peer makes me very very proud.

I think my son is going to West Point for the right reason. It isn’t us, that’s for sure. It is the only reason that can make me feel this is the right thing. He states he wishes to serve his country. Not for the education or the sport which helped him get in – though he is looking forward to wearing gold and black – but because he wants to serve his country. He is deeply patriotic. As he put it; “I want to be part of something much bigger than me.” I really am in total awe with him. Where the hell did he get this? My first year at college I watched Nixon resign and really didn’t have high regard for my country – that was to some degree my ethos, one of a knowing somewhat chic cynicism for big country and army. It just was the way we were back then and how many of us still are. We never suffered ,and my son’s life was one of plenty and ease growing up. Why would he be so eager to sacrifice for his country? I have no idea. I wonder if 9/11 is having and will have a very deep and significant impact for our youth over and beyond what we ourselves registered or understand. That a lot of 7 to 13 year olds were watching that day intently and taking it all in, perhaps even more so than their parents.

If he is sincere - and I think he is – I can accept his reason as completely just and appropriateexpanation for his accepting the USMA admission.

But anyone with a brain would be terrified if their son or daughter entered the US Army now – either via USMA or as a grunt. We are at war and I have no reason to doubt the executive of this country when he pointed out this will be a decades long effort. I had a small laugh when a parent at this gathering we went to, obviously another child of the 60s, gravely pointed out to me that the cadets don’t swear an oath of allegiance to “Bush”, but to the Constitution of the US of A. I thought that was pretty funny that she took comfort in that and didn’t bother to point out that “Bush” took a very similar oath.

I have read that oath a few times now and it does make me feel better.

 

[bkf]

My daughter just graduated and in the course of a conversation with a car salesman, she metioned she is going to West Point this summer. He expressed his opinion of the caliber of the school and education and then asked her if she was sure she wanted to be there since we were at war and she would probably end up in Iraq. She looked him right in the eye and said "I want to. That's where I want to go to school and if I end up in Iraq or somewhere else, that is where I want to be because I want to support this country that I love and if that means I need to fight for it, I will and I will do it gladly."
I think that is a point that many people outside of the "circle" don't get about these young future leaders (and they will be leaders, whether thru the military or outside, they are the future leaders of our country) they want this. They may not fully comprehend what is coming in the future, but they want to be there and to be part of it.
My daughter's good friend joined the ranks of the enlisted yesterday and his mom was there to see him off, with her 8 month old son, and an officer walked by and said "he's almost ready to enlist" and his mom said "you aren't getting this one"
The conversation then turned to how the Army recruiters had "lured" her now enlisted son thru his stomach--pizza, subs, etc. What she failed to see is that this was his choice. He wants to serve and he withstood her anger for the last year and went ahead and entered the service because he wanted to. It was very definitely against her wishes. But even now, she does not see that he is doing what he wants to and is very proud of his accomplishment.
I appoligize for my ramblings but I needed to voice my opinion. I am very proud of my daughter and her desire to serve and to follow in the footsteps of many great Americans. I admit I am naiive, because I have never been thru this before. And it is easy to say now that I will understand if she is killed, but I have not been there and cannot imagine (and pray I don't have to) what I will go thru if that comes to pass. However, I am confidant that she knows where she wants to be and what she wants to do, and that will carry her thru what may come. We have talked extensively about this and she is firm in her resolve. But, like I said before, it is easy to say this when I and she are not in the situation.
I applaud all the parents on this forum for their advice and encouragement and the straight talk. The world can be a very nasty place but with her training and her desire, she can pull thru anything. And, the growth she receives will be more than I could ever give her by trying to protect her and keep her safe.