Reduction in force USAF

JAM,
NO they don't
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Are you stating that the Army does not require anymore in extra time commitment when you are promoted?

If you are than everyone should go Army, since other branches without a doubt require a time commitment for accepting rank.

I do not disagree about the 5 and dive comment, but let's also bring this back to the OP...AF not Army. The Army is not the AF. The AF is not the Army.

In the AF they do not promote early because of the JOB. Instead they place a lower ranking officer in the position. In your scenario they would put a 1st in a Captains Billet and because of that they are promoted. Bullet had O5 Billets when he was an O4 they did not say "this is an O5 so here you go you are an O5 now". The glory you got out of it was for your OPR and PRF, nothing else.

If we want to discuss the Army, I would think highlighting promotion rates because people are doing 5 and dive is not the way you would want to go to recruit future officers. It is saying to them that this particular branch has low morale to the point that they are promoting early to fill the abundant gaps.

Yes, this is war time. Let's also remember that the AF never left the sandbox since 1990. The majority of AD members did spend 12 months in the sandbox over a course of a 3 yr assignment, only to be hit with a mandatory 1 yr remote after that. Yet, they never sped up the O3 promotion board to fill billets. That would mean 20 yrs the member spent in the AF, 8 yrs away from home, AT LEAST. The AF has now also sped up their deployments to be 6 months instead of 4, so many spend 18 out of 36, yet the AF is still kicking some to the curb.

The AF has spent 20 yrs in the desert. The Army hasn't. The Army gets rides from the AF to get them to their destination, they don't get there on their own. For every Army det that needs air support, there are AF personnel who calls it in for them, and there are AF planes that drop the bombs. It is not just the Army out there, the AF is there with them too. The avg AWAC unit is deployed 200+ days a yr. The avg KC or C130 is also deployed 200 days a yr. Again we are kicking people out! Even in the Army with 1 yr in and 1 yr out, these guys beat them by the numbers!

I respect and admire the Army. It takes a very special person to enlist/commission into that branch, but you are defeating your own argument of why anyone should join the Army if you say the majority are 5 and diving when the AF has to physically kick out people.

Think about it...do you want to join an organization where people are leaving or do you want to join the organization where people want to stay?
 
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KP,

That was my point.

It was a flat 3 yrs for any of the following:
1. RANK
2. PME or Masters
3. PCS (volunteer)

Additionally, to retire at a specific rank you must serve a set time, I believe it is 2 yrs.

People do not understand that although you can 5 and dive, the minute you start accepting promotions, moves and education it becomes much harder to walk at the 5 yr marker. Accept O2, at the 2 yr marker you can still leave at 5. Finish PME at 3 the 3 yr marker you are stuck until 6. Accept O3 at 4 yrs you are stuck until 7. Move as O3 with 5 yrs in end and you are stuck at 8.

GETTING THE PICTURE? It is very easy to accept the perk without realizing that there is fine print at the bottom when you raise your hand to take the oath.

I am just stating this from personal experience so parents, cadets and future cadets can understand the true process within the military and time commitments. Do not enter thinking that your 5 yr commitment will not be extended if you ask them to pay 75% for your Masters, promote you and pay you more or if they move you to Hawaii. You always have the option of staying put (non vol PCS), decline a promotion and pay for your Masters on your own dime. In that case you can leave exactly at 5 DOR
 
Pima - you can simply ask me to clairfy. I dont need a condesending book.
The only sense I could see for speeding up an O3 board would mean to accept the pin on they incur another time commitment. If you do it at 3, then they will be required to stay until 6
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I said no they don't.
Being promoted early to Captain doesn't bring another time commitment (necessarily).
Plenty of Captains have left the Army at 5 years. This is not the reason for early promotion. Staffing is the issue.

LITS - go back to 2006-2008 at the height of the war in Iraq. Young Army officers were leaving in droves.
The class of 2002 took a lot of heat since so many left right when they could in 2007. In fact some were prevented from leaving by the Stop Loss that was in effect. This created the domino effect and allowed many early promotions which have been going on for a couple of years now. While all services have been at war - arguably the ARMY has made the most sacrifices in terms of numbers, deployments and deployments in theater. This is why the Army instituted the ADSO program a couple of years ago - to increase job satisfaction and retention.

In recent years, it has been failry typical for an Army officer to commission and wake up 5 years later with nothing but their career. No apartment, house, no car, no social life. Their stuff still in storage. They go to school for a year or so after commissioning, then deploy. This will last from 18 or more months. They come home for a little R&R and training and deploy again. You probably should refrain from comparing the first 5 years of a career of an AF officer and an Army officer.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
While all services have been at war - arguably the ARMY has made the most sacrifices in terms of numbers, deployments and deployments in theater.

You probably should refrain from comparing the first 5 years of a career of an AF officer and an Army officer.
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I would say that the USMC is up there with the Army. Obviously a matter of proportion, as they are a much smaller branch. I would agree, too, that 5 years in the USAF is very different than in the USA now that we are engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even with USAF deployments to the theater, and with AWACS guys being gone 200 days a year or whatever, there is not the constant risk to life and limb that the grunt on the ground is exposed to. I realize I'm speaking in generalities.

I'm an Air Force vet, and all service is important and contains a level of sacrifice (don't get me wrong), but I agree with JAM's point about the Army being a very different type of service than the Air Force with regards to exposure to certain hardships. It makes sense that the Army had high attrition in 2007 (for the USMA class, which is I guess what you are reporting, yes?), as they would have served at the height of that conflict and their branch sustained the majority of the casualties.
 
USAF got rid of a number of JOs, to fund the F-22. They're trying to fill that back in, but they aren't promoting at 3 years for O-3.

Maybe Army is different, but in my branch, if you are promoted, to owe a certain amount of time in grade before you can get out.

At 1 million, you would think that they Army would have the largest numbers overseas.
 
sprog - I agree about the USMC. Your last sentence - correct assumption.

Not to beat a dead horse but here is the ADSO from the Army. specifically page two:
A commissioned officer who accepts a promotion does not incur an ADSO. However, an officer in the grade of lieutenant colonel or colonel must serve in that grade for not less than 3 years from the date of promotion to voluntarily retirement in that grade unless waived under some other provision of law. An officer promoted to the grade of lieutenant, captain, or major must serve in that grade for not less than 6 months from the date of promotion to voluntarily retire in that grade.​



From this it's not a stretch to conclude that forced retention through increased ADSO is not the reason for early promotions.
 
LineInTheSand said:
USAF got rid of a number of JOs, to fund the F-22. They're trying to fill that back in, but they aren't promoting at 3 years for O-3..
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In the USAF it's 4 years to Captain (O-3). There used to be a Board that selected Captains, but my understanding is that they got rid of that a few years ago, and the promotion is automatic like it is for O-2. The reasoning for getting rid of the Board was that 98% of the people got promoted to Captain, and you pretty much had to murder someone, while taking drugs, while drunk, with several prostitutes and a General's wife to not make O-3.
 
Being promoted early to Captain doesn't bring another time commitment (necessarily)....An officer promoted to the grade of lieutenant, captain, or major must serve in that grade for not less than 6 months from the date of promotion to voluntarily retire in that grade.
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NOTICE the key word VOLUNTARILY RETIRE. RETIREMENT and SEPARATION are 2 different things. You can be a Captain and retire with 20 yrs because you were enlisted prior...same for Major. Hard for LT, however, even as a LT you will be out at 5 due to the fact that you get 1st at 2 yr DOR, add 3 yr commitment and it brings you to 5.

Now let's address your 1st part of the statement, it doesn't necessarily bring another commitment. To these cadets who cannot RETIRE at 5, but can separate it sure as Hades brings a commitment to them.

Please don't place false information out there. I acknowledge that the AF is flat 4 yrs for O3 with a time commitment. I acknowledge that the Army is now doing O3 in 3, but to say retirement and separation is interchangeable is absolutely FALSE. They are not. Show me in that reg where it said SEPARATION. It didn't it said RETIREMENT. Retirement means bennies, separation means fly be free!

We all know that you are the go to person regarding noms and applying. However, your father retired when you were a child and you have not lived a military AD life. Please respect that some of us who had to hang around did so because of the regs regarding accepting promotions and PCS's or PME's. I have seen friends RIF, SERB and caught in Stop Loss the military has no problem plying fast and loose with regs regarding commitment.

I am not sure why you are fighting this argument about O3 or commitments with me when multiple posters are also saying yep you pay the piper for getting that O3 paycheck.

Let's remember that Bullet lived the Army as a jumper with the 82nd. Trust me, I am someone who was 9 mos pregnant and he was in the field, I also am the wife where we were going to church one Sunday morning with kids loaded in the car to only hear the phone ring as we locked the door. 20 minutes later Bullet was in BDU's, and 5 days later he was on a C130. I am not trying to make this a tit for tat. The Army has carried the burden of these 2 wars. I respect and admire them for that. I understand as a spouse and a mother how hard it is, but my point is/was if you joined the AF in 1990, you already spent 12 yrs in the sandbox before the Army returned in 02. I get that the Army is tired and wants to leave, don't you think that the AF feels the same way?

Yes, their rotations may be shorter, but a very wise person (Bullet) once said when he was given the same argument of "YEAH, but now we have to sit there" comment, HIS RESPONSE "It is not my fault you chose that branch". I am not asking for pity on the AF for sitting/flying 20 yrs, because they signed up and knew that this would occur. I am stating don't say
you probably should refrain from comparing the first 5 years of a career of an AF officer and an Army officer.
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I should also remind you again that when the 82nd jumps in there is an AF officer sitting in the trenches with them calling the AF to cover their arse. I also would like to remind you that operational direction changes, who knows in 5 yrs it might be all Air to Ground (i.e. OSW/ONW) and the troops are withdrawn, but the AF and Navy will continue to sit in the sandbox for a decade like they did in the 90's to keep peace. Right now the Army is holding the short straw, but back in the 90's they didn't, the AF and Navy had the short straws.


Let's remember that every branch relies on their sister branch for success regarding war/conflicts. Not one can operate/succeed without the help of the others, so let's drop this game of we do more you do less or we have it harder you have it easier.

Finally the point is this thread is way off track, it was about RIFS. Members and lurkers now have a bigger view regarding the real military and I hope they absorb this when determining if this is the right fit for them or even regarding a branch for promotion purposes. The true fact is live for today, prepare for tomorrow. RIFS may or may not occur, 1 yr remotes or deployments may or may not happen. Don't wrap yourself up in a tizzy worrying about the what ifs, trust me there will be enough what ifs even if you weren't in the military to keep yourself busy!

PLAY ON (crud terms)! I am positive I will not change one opinion and because I am that sure this was my parting post...of course if we want to go back to John Travolta and Welcome Back Mr. Kotter I will be happy to post!
 
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sprog said:
In the USAF it's 4 years to Captain (O-3). There used to be a Board that selected Captains, but my understanding is that they got rid of that a few years ago, and the promotion is automatic like it is for O-2. The reasoning for getting rid of the Board was that 98% of the people got promoted to Captain, and you pretty much had to murder someone, while taking drugs, while drunk, with several prostitutes and a General's wife to not make O-3.
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It's 4 years for the Coast Guard as well. Of the 200+ people who went before the O-3 board this year, around 20-30 were not picked up for O-3. Some of those people just did not have good OERs....some had some problems.

Last time I checked it took USAF 2 years to make O-2....can you imagine a year later making O-3? :thumb:
 
LITS - this document is old going back to 2006.
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33518.pdf
It discusses officer shortages and early promotions - go to page 14 for Promotion Timing.

Another option to address a shortage situation would be ​

to promote officers sooner to the next higher rank. Since 9/11, this has occurred at

the ranks of both captain and major.
In early 2002, the Army reduced the promotion timing for promotion to captain
from 42 to 38 months. At the time, the Army could have reduced this point to 36 months. However, Congress, which had required 18 months in the grade of first
lieutenant when DOPMA was passed in 1981, increased this requirement to 24
months effective October 1, 2005.15 Because of the Declaration of National
Emergency discussed earlier, the Army has temporarily suspended the 24 month
requirement and continued to promote to captain at the 38 month point. Similarly, the
Army reduced the promotion timing for major from 11 years to 10 years in 2005 to
partially address the shortage of majors. This 10-year point is the mid-point of the
DOPMA (9 to 11 year) range.
In summary, the Army has attempted to partially offset the shortage of captains​
​




and majors by promoting more and promoting earlier to these ranks.​
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PIMA - give. it. a. rest.
To those of you who kindly sent me messages of support - thanks! :smile:​
 
Right JAM....and you have done exactly what to negate the fact that it only takes 3 years to make O-3 in the Army? It ONLY TAKES 3 YEARS! That's what I'm saying. Takes less than 10 years to make O-4.

I'm not sure if you're actually planning on being IN the military, or if this is your valiant effort to, for some reason, defend the promotion rate of your daughter's service, but heck, if I could make O-3 in 3 years, I'd certainly take it.
 
Army and AF work closely for a reason- they rely on each other, and rightly so. It is the US Military as a team that accomplishes everything they do- all 5 branches. I think this thread is getting off topic. The subject was how a reduction in force could possible affect USAFA grads, remember?
 
Right you are Vampsoul- Virtually no posts answering the OPs original question. This thread needs to take a break or return to the original question which was: "How will a Reduction in Force" affect current USAFA cadets."
 
Go back and read my posts #4 and post #13. They were absolutely relevant.

I was looking for input from current cadets at AFA. I guess none have an opinion on the subject - which is okay.
 
Bruno is correct, we should get back on track regarding the AF RIF for cadets.

IMHO, as I stated a long time ago, the military must have a field grade to company grade ratio. Currently, the field grade is too high and they need to bring that number down. The problem that cadets should be aware of is if they cut too many in the field than in a few yrs they will have to come back and re-align the company grade.

I highly suspect that in a decade or less you will see a RIF for company because of the current economy. Many young officers who thought they would do 5 and dive are finding out that there are no jobs out there, thus, they are remaining, which increases the company grade level. Meanwhile, the military thought X % would dive and they planned for those spaces to open up to bring in new officers. If the economy does not turn in 2-3 yrs, and they don't dive it while they reduce the field grade, it means they will now be bottom heavy.

Look at the codes that are on the hit list before you say "Sign me up for that field". If they are cutting Weather maybe you shouldn't consider that field since it is probably a sign that they are considering outsourcing that field.

The officers that are usually safe from RIFS are in positions that are specific. For example, UAVs are the new future of the AF. It takes the AF yrs to train them, thus, they will cut the maintainer before the UAV pilot since the UAV pilot can slide into maintenance, maintenance can't slide into the UAV slot. Nurses, PA's, Dentists, and traditional Docs can be cut because they can contract them, whereas, the flt doc can't because he flies. JAG can be outsourced, so can MP's. Go on any base now and you will see the guy/gal checking your ID is a rent a cop, 5-10 yrs ago they were all military. Even the Pentagon is guarded by non-military employees.

Be wise in determining your career field, you place yourself at risk during a RIF if the govt can hire an outside company to do the same job.

RIFS are not unusual in the AF. Over the past 20 yrs, I can recall at least 3. However, it was only in 92-93 that they truly gutted the company grade, (95% of 86-87 class that did not have a full commissioning). In 95-96 they did not RIF, but to get the numbers down they had @60% promotion rate to O4. The economy was thriving in 99-00 and that meant many of the AF pilots turned down O4 to go airlines, which meant they had to RIF company grade since the field grade was smaller. A few yrs later,(05-06) they hit the field grade again because now the airlines weren't hiring and now there were too many.

It truly is a ping pong game regarding RIFS in the AF when discussing which grade will be hit. If you want to serve, then serve. Trust me, you should never join the military because of job security or pay because the price is too high if it isn't your first love.
 
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Pima, and others...

Regarding "RIFs"...since I've been "associated" with the USAF since, well since November 1959 when I was born (AF Dep Son, then USAF officer)...

I've seen a BUNCH of RIF's in my life. The one's we're seeing now aren't really "huge" by comparison. I well remember my school friends' parents crushed when their AF father, a MAJOR with seniority, was handed their walking papers and the next week was a SSGT/TSGT because they needed 3-5 more years to get to 20.

RIF's are not new and they are not going to go away. What PIMA and others have said about career fields, choices, etc., is very accurate. Cadets at USAFA and the other SA's would do well to look CLOSELY at the fields they're interested in, to see what the projections are for the future.

At the same time, if your HEART is set on one of those fields that seems perpetually at risk, GO FOR IT. Just be the VERY BEST at it that you can. Sadly too many folks graduate and pin on their bars and then go into "wow, I'm outta the ZOO...time to chill and enjoy the fruits of my labors!"

And THAT will get you noticed VERY QUICKLY by senior types like me that aren't looking for that type of junior officer! We're looking for "go getters" with a blazing "fire inside" that wants to change the world, make great contributions, and desperately wants to LEARN!

THEY are the ones that we put at the top of OUR lists when the RIF "rack and stacK" comes down. THEY are the ones that don't get touched.

Just food for thought.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Re: USAF reduction in force

What field should future cadets be concerned about being RIF?
 
Unfortunately nobody here is psychic, thus, none of us can tell you that answer.

The military is eerily similar to corporations. As a cadet I would suggest that for job safety you look at fields that cannot be outsourced to government contractors.

The UAV is going to expand in demand, and grads 10-14 they will be on the ground floor which will create safety re: RIFS.

In the AF or any branch flying will save you compared to A&F or PA when it comes to RIFs. As I keep stating you can slide the flier into a desk, you can't slide a desk officer into flying.

In the Army JUMP is volunteer, thus, if you jump you are like the flier...more valuable to them.

Additionally, going to the academy and getting unique assignments like fellowships will save you because RIFs meet boards like the board you meet for any SA. The RIF board is not about to say you are not worthy when the AF said you are the highest so we are sending you to a fellowship.
 
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