Report: US Military is too white and too male at the top

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What I don't understand is if the goal is to "make the officer corps look like the fleet" why aren't they addressing the issue from both sides for a quicker solution?

Instead of just promoting/advancing minority officers at a higher rate, why not also accept white enlisted personnel at a higher rate?

Seems to me they would get their desired racial percentages in line with what they want a lot sooner.
 
Clearly the USN is NOT concerned about the fleet mirroring the racial, ethnic and gender mix in American society. They ARE concerned about their military leadership mirroring the racial, ethnic and gender mix of the fleet. Evidently some diversity is more desirable than others.
 
Glad you can make your contribution to the downhill slide. True colors shine through.
But, perhaps you can expound on just what this means.
Do you means that the report is not true? Just drivel that someone made up? Do you mean that it doesn't matter if the military stacked with blacks who are led by whites? Are you from Tennessee?

I also think the report is a crap but I do have my reasons and would have been little more tactful.

Numbers can be manipulated to say anything

First, what was the racial make up of the Army about 25 years ago? The average time to make a general is a 22 years (+/- few years). I am reasonably sure that there were less non-white males in the Army 25 years ago. My guess is that the percentage of non-white males being general officers will go up.

Second, what's the retention rate for non-white male soldiers?
If you don't stick around, you are not going to make a general officer regardless how good you are.

Third, I have not seen anything definite that shows there are siginficant number of female soldiers that wants to serve in Infantry, Armor, Artillery, and Combat Engineers (I believe females can fly AH-64s and OH58D, so no issues with aviation).

Lastly, there were several think tank studies and an Army War College paper written by an African American Infantry Colonel (I read it but didn't keep it) that shows how non-white male soldiers shy away from combat arms. Going back to this forum, branch selection at West Point is based on your class rank. So regardless what you race is, if you rank high enough, you get your choice of branch.

In conclusion, for URM males, there is no instituional obstacle for them to go combat arms. What happens afterward is based on your competence. Allowing women into combat arms will result in minimum number of females becoming combat arms soldiers.

P.S. I am not a white male.
 
Okay Folks -
For those who do not have your eyes shut, fingers in your ears and not repeating na-na-na-na-na-na over an over again....

Here are the links to the Executive Summary and Final Report:
http://mldc.whs.mil/download/documents/Final%20Report/MLDC_Executive_Summary.pdf

http://mldc.whs.mil/download/documents/Final Report/MLDC_Final_Report.pdf

The Military Leadership Diversity Commission was Chaired by AF General Lester L Lyles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Lyles
Former Vice Chief of Staff for the AF.
 
Many of you may have noticed that it is almost NEVER the candidates who post commentary on this particular forum- that is because by and large they are disillusioned by the obnoxious and repetitive squabbling that passes for "adult" commentary on many of the threads in this forum.

I think candidates can't understand what we are dicussing. I think this is a good training as they will run into "obnoxious and repetitive squabbling" in the future. Perhaps, they could learn what not to do . . .
 
Okay Folks -
For those who do not have your eyes shut, fingers in your ears and not repeating na-na-na-na-na-na over an over again....

Here are the links to the Executive Summary and Final Report:
http://mldc.whs.mil/download/documents/Final%20Report/MLDC_Executive_Summary.pdf

http://mldc.whs.mil/download/documents/Final Report/MLDC_Final_Report.pdf

The Military Leadership Diversity Commission was Chaired by AF General Lester L Lyles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Lyles
Former Vice Chief of Staff for the AF.

I don't think some of us have have eyes shut, but rather we, at least I am, are taking the attitude the commission might be wrong. How dare we question the distinguished members of the commission. The simple fact is that their expertise is what happesn at high levels, not where rubber meets the road. Did you ever consider the commission members are the folks that created the current institution? No offense to fellow AF officers, but what does AF officers know about what Infantry soldiers do (this is a valid question).


From the report, Conclusion, page 117

"Begining with the pool of eligible recruits, racial/ethnic minorities are at an increasing disadvantage on terms of meeting military eligibility requirements. The commission recommmend that all stakeholders work together to improve the educational and physical readiness"

So the military is now responsbile for the America's youth?

I skim the recommendation, nothing solid, something along the line a doctor telling a patient to you need to exercise to improve your health not knowing the patient is working 12 hours day, spends 3 hours commuting, so he doesn't have time to exercise.
 
And Scoutpilot sat back in wonder as his prophecy was fulfilled.

I'm going to call a sports bookie and make some cash. I'm like a Magic 8-ball
 
I have serious reservations about the assumptions underlying the recommendations proceeding from the report. That said, there are better fora in which to effectively address the issue.
 
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Got any ideas on who will win the World Series this year? :yllol:

My sources say it will be an all-male team of above-average size and ability. They will not represent the demographics of the Fleet. :wink:
 
Women make up 14% of the Army and hold 16% of the senior officer positions according to the article. Sounds like it mirrors the force, at least on the gender front.

http://www.army.mil/women/
 
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And Scoutpilot sat back in wonder as his prophecy was fulfilled.

I'm going to call a sports bookie and make some cash. I'm like a Magic 8-ball

Apparently JAM didn't see the humor in my comment, quoting your initial post stating "first someone will say this report is crap." And my following that quote with "this report is crap." My humor is too advanced but my math skills aren't advanced enough to account for the lowest common denominator. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.

I would love to see college attendence and graduation rates between whites and minorities, especially considering you need that degree for a commission. Then I would love to see application rates to academies, commisioning sources, and enlistments. Ah! This reminds we of grad school!
 
Are you from Tennessee?


Yep, Tennesse is my home of record (that's military speak JAM)...but that's not the only place I've lived...

In order..

Born in Pennsyvania
Lived Upstate New York (real upstate, none of that West Point "upstate")
Lived in Tennessee
College in Connecticut
Stationed in New Jersey
Stationed in Washington, DC
Grad school in Washington, DC
Soon to move to Santa Fe, NM

While preadult years form a firm foundation for political socialization, my most formative years (17 yrs- 26yrs) for political thought were in the north.

So I question why you asked if I'm from Tennessee. Yes I consider myself a Tennessean, and I've seen enough of the country and the world to be proud I'm from that state, despite my "yankee parents, upbringing and accent (or lack of)".

JAM, why did you ask if I'm from Tennessee?
 
Which is it that the report wants....military leadership that better reflects the racial, ethnic and gender mix in the armed forces or those in American society? My understanding is that the enlisted ranks of each branch don't reflect the racial, ethnic and gender mix in America society.

You are right. The enlisted ranks don't reflect the general population mix of the country because the segment of the population that recruiters target are the lower socio-economic areas. Recruiters know they aren't going to get too many kids to sign from the Philadelphia Main Line, but if they go into West Philly, North Philly, or South Philly and some of the poorer areas of Delaware County, they will be able to meet their quotas.
Now, if these same kids are good enough to be sent to war, to protect those boys from the Main Line, why can't they also be leaders? Because their SAT scores weren't as high as the kid from Radnor HS who has two parents living at home. A family income well above 6 figures, a school campus with facilities that rival small colleges, Prep taking courses for the SAT's and ACT.
A lot of people fail to realize the hardships a kid from an economically disadvantage family faces on a daily basis. I know there are white kids that also fall into this category, but I am pretty sure that if you look close enough, most of the white kids at the SA's aren't from the North, West or South Philadelphia types of neighborhoods.
 
...but I am pretty sure that if you look close enough, most of the white kids at the SA's aren't from the North, West or South Philadelphia types of neighborhoods.

I'm sure if you looked closely enough, you'd see that neither are the black kids.

You'd see that most come from suburban upper-middle class families as well.
 
I'm sure if you looked closely enough, you'd see that neither are the black kids.

You'd see that most come from suburban upper-middle class families as well.

I believe you may be right about that.
 
Ok, I’m going to try to attempt something a little different here: inject an opinion that tries to avoid emotional bias and instead tries to look at all the issues involved from a logical standpoint.

First off, I’ll say this upfront, and this is strictly MY OPINION (so base rebuttals exclusively to countering this as an opinion); Congress would like to see a more diverse representation in our military leadership. Guess what, so does the current military leadership. I heartily support this as a GOOD thing, we NEED to bring all of the vast and the various experiences the entire spectrum of America has to offer to best support our military’s future. I applaud their efforts to make America’s military leadership more representative of the entire American spectrum, it WILL make us better, and give a better example for the troops we lead.

But I will add this caveat: this is a good thing ONLY if we simultaneously ensure that while we push diversity amongst the ranks, we are also ensuring standards aren’t lowered to achieve that diversity: the job we do and the responsibilities we have are too important to allow accepting less. From my own experience, I would say this is the case for the vast majority of the under-represented populations discussed here: females and minorities (especially AA males in leadership positions). I have served with, and served under, both. Honored to do so, and it has been proven to me time and again that if the individual has the proper training, attitude, and drive, they can easily succeed in gaining the requirements necessary to become effective leaders, even at the highest levels of the services. But I have also seen examples where these requirements were either ignored or forgiven, with the greater emphasis on advancement IN THESE INDIVIDUAL CASES being placed on the criteria of their being a part of an under-represented minority.

Bottom Line: I’ve had excellent female and minority peers and leaders, I’ve had average female and minority peers and leaders, and I’ve had less than the standard female and minority peers and leaders. And just like the majority, you will have a mix of all three throughout the ranks, usually in the same percentages; it becomes the duty of the military to identify, groom, and promote those in the first category as early in their careers as possible.

But this discussion above doesn’t address the findings and recommendations currently presented in this report: the lack of diversity at the leadership levels of the military NOW. Please allow me to provide some context, as I see it. I’ll start with the low levels of female representation in the General Officer ranks of our military services…

But before I begin that look, it first helps to set the stage as to “how does one eventually get to the rank of General?” Time to face facts here, people. In the AF, this usually means you are a flyer. In the Navy, this means you’re either a SWO or aviator. Army and Marines? You probably have combat arms experience. Granted, there ARE opportunities to make GO without these qualifications, but they are the vast exception, and not the norm. Second, it takes at least 25 years to get to your first star; this means the stars today entered the services in the late 70s, early to mid 80s.

Now, as to your female population: well, until only about a generation ago, the female population was VERY small in the military (we didn’t even have female cadets at our academies until the late 70s), and it has been playing catch-up to get to a better % of representation since (with it generally being around the 20% pt now). So, as of RIGHT NOW, there is a very limited number of females even AVAILABLE at the proper time in service to be at the GO level. But we’re seeing increases each year as the %s catch up.

The other issue: availability of having the “right” background to be competitive for the GO ranks. I’ll give you the AF perspective here: in the AF, the “fighter mafia” has ruled the highest ranks (2, 3, and 4 Star) for a while (but it IS moving away from that, slowly). Until the early-90s, women just weren’t allowed to be a part of that “mafia”; they were kept out of fighter cockpits. We are just seeing the first few female fighter pilots now reach the Colonel level; as their numbers increase, we are sure to see more and more make the GO rank (and I personally know the first few that either have made it that far, or are just behind).

For the Combat Arms of our Army and Marines? Well, opening up these positions to females will begin the process of generating some who are qualified to eventually get to the GO rank, having the right “tickets punched” that makes them part of the “normal leadership clique”. Opening up these positions WILL eventually increase their representation in the senior ranks, but it will take at least 20 years for this to be in significant numbers. And it also doesn’t address the issue: is America ready and willing to accept female soldiers and marines on the front lines? Many here would say, “certainly”. But this is a very biased audience. My gut feeling is there is still a very large portion of the American population who still say “no”. The issue then becomes cultural, and overcoming those cultural biases.

Now, my “controversial” issue for females: the cultural pressure females will eventually have to face or balance: starting a family. Some have been very successful balancing careers with having kids, some have sacrificed having a family for their careers, and some have decided that having a family was more important to them than having a career. There is a “cultural” phenomenon here that is reducing the number of qualified female officers from advancing: some of our best and brightest females, who would make GO if they stay, are getting out instead. I’m just not sure if how the military can adequately address this issue; we ain’t GE, we can’t afford to give our officers months of maternity leave, and if they do take it, they will fall behind their peers in qualifications.

Now, I will step VERY gingerly into the issue of the AA male, and why we are not seeing a larger % at our highest levels. Please understand, this is again ONLY the opinion of someone who is NOT an AA male, so I may not be fully qualified to provide the full answer on all the issues involved.

I will start by saying, that in MY OPINION, it starts with the cultural phenomenon that as a country, we seem to have let our minority population down by accepting the fact that the percentages of minority males unqualified and unprepared to lead in our military is so large, much larger than the % in the white male population. Lots of reasons for this, but it is a sad testament when we have more AA males in prison than in College. Our emphasis needs to now focus on getting that smaller % prepared and qualified to want to join (this IS a volunteer military). So, when you start with a smaller percentage prepared and qualified from the beginning, you will naturally see smaller %s down the road. For this reason, I highly applaud the military’s efforts to identify those minority young men and women who are prepared and qualified, and spend the extra effort to adequately recruit them in greater numbers.

So, in conclusion, I see the military has ALREADY taken many of the steps that need to be taken to EVENTUALLY get higher %s of females and minorities in our highest ranks. There ARE additional, and important, steps that still need to be addressed. As long as these steps are taken, the %s will eventually rise. The worry I (and many I know) have is this increase will not be apparent in the near term; it will take years. The issue becomes, “Is this soon enough to please Congress?” , and the ONLY way to make it quicker would be to artificially promote females and minorities at higher %s, which usually means that qualifications and experience are thrown away at the expense of diversity. This CAN potentially lead to reduction in the quality of our military leadership, if the military is forced to act now rather than wait for their current efforts to bear fruit.

The final question, then. Is America willing to risk a reduction in quality and experience of our military leadership in the name of diversity? Which is more important, national security or national pride?
 
And Scoutpilot sat back in wonder as his prophecy was fulfilled.

I'm going to call a sports bookie and make some cash. I'm like a Magic 8-ball

Scout, with the NCAA March Madness starting next week, can I get you to fill out my office pool brackets for me?

Better yet, why don't we start out own "brackets", with the top 68 controversial issues we normally see here on SAF competing for the ultimate championship. Personally, I would have my four #1 seeds as: "Which is better, an Academy or ROTC?", "SA Prep Schools, the "red-shirt" factory for SA athletics?", "Diversity recruitment", and my predicted winner: "Army, Navy, AF, , Marines, or CG? Which is better?"

:biggrin:
 
You are right. The enlisted ranks don't reflect the general population mix of the country because the segment of the population that recruiters target are the lower socio-economic areas. Recruiters know they aren't going to get too many kids to sign from the Philadelphia Main Line, but if they go into West Philly, North Philly, or South Philly and some of the poorer areas of Delaware County, they will be able to meet their quotas.
Now, if these same kids are good enough to be sent to war, to protect those boys from the Main Line, why can't they also be leaders? Because their SAT scores weren't as high as the kid from Radnor HS who has two parents living at home. A family income well above 6 figures, a school campus with facilities that rival small colleges, Prep taking courses for the SAT's and ACT.
A lot of people fail to realize the hardships a kid from an economically disadvantage family faces on a daily basis. I know there are white kids that also fall into this category, but I am pretty sure that if you look close enough, most of the white kids at the SA's aren't from the North, West or South Philadelphia types of neighborhoods.


What is saying is partially true in some cases, but not supported by the overall recruitng trend

According to a Heritage Foundation study

"In summary, we found that, on average, 1999 recruits were more highly educated than the equiv*alent general population, more rural and less urban in origin, and of similar income status. We did not find evidence of minority racial exploitation (by race or by race-weighted ZIP code areas). We did find evidence of a ?Southern military tradition? in that some states, notably in the South and West, provide a much higher proportion of enlisted troops by population"

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Re...of-US-Military-Recruits-Before-and-After-9-11

Another reality is that with the Army meeting its recruting goal with qualified enlistees, so less and less waivers are being granted.

Army or SAs shouldnt' lower the standard. Becoming an officer/leader is a priviliege not a right. I would also tell you that there are enough programs and assistances, if if someone has the desire and minimumu qualifications they can become officers or go to SAs.

I work with many "disadvantage" and "privileged" kids as a FFR. The difference between ones going to SA or not going to SA are desire. As a FFR, I can't tell them what to do and I won't hold their hands.
 
Bullet: Impressive well though out post as usual. I really appreciate your insight.
Hopefully America is not willing to risk a reduction in quality and experience of our military leadership for any "goal". If you don't take care of yourself you will be in no position to help anyone.
 
EXTREMELY impressive analysis Bullet! :thumb:

And you kept me from attempting to say that...and you said it BETTER than I would have!

Your points about the numbers available "now" from the pool of the past...is well understood in my home. "CinC House" was an AF officer (engineer at Wright Patt AFB and then a KC Pilot). When she finally decided to leave active duty (1991) she was one of only 300 female pilots.

How many do we have today?
(Of course, it's now 20 years later!)

The "diversity/numbers" will adjust in time...but your points are directly on target...trouble is, IMHO, the "powers that be" and the "authors" of such reports...are looking for the "instant fix."

That doesn't happen.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
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