ROTC and Law School

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by nelson, Jul 31, 2011.

  1. nelson

    nelson Member

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    I was wondering if it's possible to do ROTC and then go straight to law school if you don't end up going active-duty
     
  2. gojack

    gojack ....

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  3. jjohnson55

    jjohnson55 Member

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    Years ago I was a civilian attorney attending the Gov't Contracts class as the JAG school in Charlottesville. I met a captain who had just gotten into the JAG Corps after 3 years in artillery. He had been ROTC undergrad and got his time set back so he could go to law school. After law school and passing the bar he appeared at the armys door and was shocked that they did not assign him to the JAG straight away; it took him 3 years to get in.

    I would not recommend to any young person that they go to law school.
     
  4. EDelahanty

    EDelahanty Member

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    Law School/ROTC Clarification Requested

    No sure if you're decrying:

    1) The legal profession in general
    2) Law school as a vehicle for becoming a lawyer (A. Lincoln read law books)
    3) ROTC/Law school as a career path
    4) (literally) Law school for young people.

    Please clarify.
     
  5. gojack

    gojack ....

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    Extensive JAG discussion HERE
     
  6. The OC Josh

    The OC Josh Member

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    Although it is competitive, you can go straight to law school from ROTC. It is similar to cadets who go to Med School or Seminary to become a chaplain.
     
  7. jjohnson55

    jjohnson55 Member

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    Decry? Not at all/ Just sharing the experience of a young captain I happened to meet.

    In terms of my recommendation against law school check out this link:


    http://abovethelaw.com/layoffs/
     
  8. gojack

    gojack ....

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    With the economic downturn, a lot of people stayed in school (and got a law degree)
    rather than get out and try to find a job in a lousy job market. A lot of layoff people
    went back to college and got their law degree = flood of wannabe Attorneys.

    "the job market for lawyers is lousy" "there were nearly twice as many bar exam passers (53,508) than openings (26,239)"

    http://www.economicmodeling.com/2011/06/22/new-lawyers-glutting-the-market-in-all-but-3-states/
    http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/06/28/new-york-has-largest-glut-of-unemployed-lawyers-in-the-nation/
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2011
  9. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I think I have to concur with gojack on this one.

    My good friends daughter finished law school, passed the bar and started work at a Public Defenders Office, a good start. She was layed off nearly 1 1/2 years later. She has been looking for another job for 2 years during which time she has been working at several unpaid internships. The Law firms are really taking advantage of the situation right now. Her fiance who is also an attorney is in the same boat.

    Of course that being said my older son is contemplating Law School, though his goal is the FBI or NSA, he has no interest in practicing law as a career.

    The strange result of this is that a lot of bright young people are now turning towards engineering, I work in a field that works closely with Civil and Structural engineers. The word from them is that there is the beginning of a glut in that field as well due to the downturn in construction.

    Of course all of this could change in the next few years. It does make it tough for young people these days to choose a field they can expect employment after graduation.
     
  10. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    Folks, if you want to discuss the relative merits of attending law school today, please take the conversation to the Off Topic forum. It's a worthwhile debate -- it really is -- but not in the ROTC forum.

    Thank you.
     
  11. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    One thing, although this is a AROTC question, people should realize that not every branch operates the same. Hence for lurkers who are looking into all 3 ROTC scholarships with law school as a goal, make sure you investigate each branch.

    AF does not allow, not even AFA grads to go directly to law school. They must do 2 yrs AD and compete for it.

    I believe the Navy is like AF and not Army. So if that is your ultimate career field, and want to do as quick as possible, it would appear Army is the way to go.

    I would also advise you to look into the payback time for it. Payback does not start when you enroll, but when you graduate. For some the thought of X amount of yrs more is a factor in their equation.
     
  12. Codywc13

    Codywc13 New Member

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    Pima,

    Doesn't AFROTC allow cadets to apply for educational delay their senior year in ROTC? If accepted they delay going on active duty for 3 years to complete law school and then they apply for JAG their third year of law school. It is very difficult to find information on this route so if you know where you can find it please tell me!
     
  13. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Yes, you can, but it will not be on scholarship compared to the 2 yr and compete. 2 yr AD and compete will allow you to immediately go into JAG.

    I was also talking about being on the AF dime as a law school scholarship recipient. Sorry for the confusion.

    There are many reasons why most do not go the 3 yr delay route.
    1. It is on their dime. Even if you have a type 7 scholarship, you may have loans. Type 7 only pays Tuition, not R & B.
    2. No guarantee of getting into JAG
    3. Competitiveness.
    4. Must make the decision by spring JR. yr., because they need to apply for Law School Sr. yr., but will not find not their results until spring SR yr. All the while trying to graduate college, study for LSATs, apply for Law and doing ROTC. That is a lot to handle.
    5. Burnt out academically.
    6. SFT. In your summer rising jr. yr., you may go to SFT, there is only a 50% selection rate currently. Now if you don't go, you won't be a POC, and must compete to go again as a rising sr. Meanwhile you are still a jr., which means you are starting the law school process. Hard to study for LSATs at SFT which is 4 week of your summer, and can be from Mid July to mid Aug.. If you do not get SFT your jr. yr, you will not be commissioned into the AF. and if you are scholarship, obviously your scholarship is revoked. Making this all moot anyway.
    ~~~ You need SFT for your OML because the delay program is a WCS style board and your OML will be taken into account.

    By going the 2 yr AD route, they are able to attend on the AF's dime while collecting a paycheck and know that they will go directly into JAG. This called FLEP (Funded Legal Education Program).

    They also can do ELP (Excess Leave Program). This allows them to do something sim. to the 3 yr delayed, no tuition, no pay,etc, but their time in grade will count and again as long as they pass the bar they immediately go into JAG. No fighting for a spot.
    ~~~Many will save every penny for 2 yrs so they can live for the 3 yrs. They still may take loans, but at least for 2 yrs they saved money. The delay student, unless Mom and Dad are footing the bill will have to take loans and find a PT job to make ends meet as a student. 1 of you will have an easier path due mainly to the fact that fiscal issues are less burdensome, hence, they can study more and get better grades.
    ~~~ They still keep their medical coverage and bennies. I am not sure of you parents health coverage, but most drop the child at 23, even if they are in college. You would be without insurance for about 2 yrs.
    ~~~ However the biggie is they will go to JAG

    JAG is a very small component of the AF, and so many opt these routes to be guaranteed JAG. Look at our current economy and how DOD is going to have to cut budgets. If you really want to be a JAG you need to decide how much of a chance you are willing to take.

    It would really stink to get through Law School to only find out that JAG has no room at the inn and now you are assigned to PA for 4 yrs.

    Finally, JAG is probably the most competitive field to get into in the AF. Additionally the delay program is also very competitive. I would hate to have people think that just because they want to do this it is easy to do.

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
  14. Codywc13

    Codywc13 New Member

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    Very interesting information Pima. It is very clear how competitive JAG is but I can never seem to find any information on how competitve the Educational Delay Program is... Your reply did clear that up for me though.

    As an AS300 who just completed field training I will continue to pursue the Ed Delay. If I am not selected for that route I will continue on with my assigned AFSC and apply once again after I complete 2 years AD! This is an extremely long road so for now I will just stick with killing the LSAT...

    Thank you for your help and if you have any information to add to Ed Delay please share it with me!
     
  15. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Good luck.

    You have a goal in mind and you should stick to it. My suggestion would be that if you don't get the ED and do the 2 yrs., you should immediately apply for TA and start on your Masters. This will allow you to be more competitive with the AD.

    TA pays 75%, and requires 3 yrs concurrent payback commitment. I.E. Day 1 AD enroll, and you are stuck until yr 3 (no biggie since you owe 4). Complete at 18 mos. and you stay until 4 1/2 yrs.

    Yr 2 you apply, and you will be just shy of getting your Masters. Worse case scenario you walk at 4 1/2 yrs with a Masters.

    This scenario should also show you why some do the AD route, because if they get Law school, they would still have to stick it out for a commitment just like you. Yes, a little bit longer, but 2 more yrs to have a Masters and a Law degree is something to think about, compared to 3 years delayed with only a Law.

    Again Good Luck.
     
  16. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    TPG congrats on your DD's selection.

    One thing that showed how competitive this is for NROTC MO is look at where TPG's DD attends undergrad, look at where she has been selected to attend Law School.

    Those 1 in 20 are cadets that are going to be like her. Not too shabby in the undergrad dept. UVA is ranked and has been consistently ranked for eons as 1 of the top 5 public universities in the nation. Their selection rate for admittance is insane.

    Going to a school like FSU, no offense to FSU, is not the same as going to UVA, and the board is going to see that.

    For candidates with this desire as their path, they need to do well
    Step 1 Attend a competitive college from an academic perspective.
    Step 2 get all A's.
    ~~~Sounds easy..."I am a straight A student to begin with". This might be true, but college isn't HS and the majority of those straight A kids aren't straight A in college. College EC's like FB games and dorm parties tend to get in the way. Some colleges knowing that will not give grades to freshman, just Pass/Fail because they know emotionally/mentally it will be their 1st B :eek:
    Step 3 Continue to keep this in your sight at all times.
    ~~~ You need to plan that academic path properly or you can find yourself burnt out by taking one semester with incredibly tough courses while trying to do ROTC and studying for the LSATs. plus taking them.

    Good luck.
     
  17. bruno

    bruno Retired Staff Member

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    Lot of that going around!! After 25 years and change of marriage- I'm still out of my league in all aspects:biggrin:
     
  18. gojack

    gojack ....

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    Just happened to see this article: Link
    An interesting read about law school
     
  19. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    TPG and Bruno,

    You both actually are missing something. She only got through it because of you. I have my MBOM, and Bullet was the one who babysat the kids at night for me to get it. You all told us to GO FOR IT, and even when you were deployed and we held down the house, you made sure to remind the rug rats to behave for Mommy because she was in school too.

    For posters,

    That is the thing. If you want it bad enough you will get it. As TPG stated for his DD it was a round about way, but she wanted it bad enough.

    If you just say OH WELL, I DIDN'T GET IT, GAME OVER! Than that is on you.

    If you understand that it may take a little more time, or different paths to get there you will get there.

    It is all on you.

    Not to be a downer, but I would suggest anyone who wants to go the direct Law school route, to look at it as they would now regarding SA appointment or scholarship recipient. Thousands upon Thousands apply.

    Some will say after the 1st yr. OH WELL, I DIDN'T GET IT, GAME OVER!

    Some will say, NOPE, I WON'T SETTLE FOR THAT, I WILL BE AN OFFICER! If that means a different route; ROTC over SA while applying for SA again, so be it, but I am going to do it.

    It is up for you decide when that the GAME IS OVER.

    Good Luck. Be real, be honest and keeping moving forward. Life has a funny way of putting you where you should be in the end!
     
  20. Codywc13

    Codywc13 New Member

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    I just recieved some information from a JAG recruiter that answered one of my earlier posts. I figured I should post it on here for anyone who has been lurking through this thread.

    Concerning the selection rate for recieving an educational delay through AFROTC she said that "Selection rates vary from year to year. Last year we had a 40% selection rate and the year before was 45%." It should be noted that this is not statistics for JAG acceptance, but instead acceptance from the AF for ROTC students to delay active duty and pursue a law degree.
     

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