ROTC at SMC vs Academy

armyman736 · Mar 22, 2011

SamAca10 said:
Why not look at USMMA, otherwise known as Kings Point? I know that their graduates can choose to commission into ANY branch of the military. Just a thought....

Wait, so if you attend and graduate from Kings point, you can graduate into any branch? I did not know this.

bruno · Mar 22, 2011

CadetMom777 said:
The academies do give you the advantage of time in service for pay purposes. Your four years at an SMC do not count toward that.

This is incorrect- your time at the Service Academy does not count toward either time in service for pay purposes or toward retirement. When the average Service Academy Cadet graduates - he or she will be an O1 with no time in service unless they were prior enlisted- the same as the average ROTC graduate.
Otherwise everything CadetMom777 is telling you is pretty much dead on target.

SamAca10 · Mar 22, 2011

armyman736 said:
Wait, so if you attend and graduate from Kings point, you can graduate into any branch? I did not know this.

It's true, as long as that branch accepts you. Having been an applicant only a little under a year ago, I remember that it was one of their biggest selling points. One of their admissions partners told me that they had "a lot of people become naval aviators who were medically qualified". I'd say look into it and decide if it's the right "fit" for you or not.

SamAca10 · Mar 22, 2011

bruno said:
This is incorrect- your time at the Service Academy does not count toward either time in service for pay purposes or toward retirement. When the average Service Academy Cadet graduates - he or she will be an O1 with no time in service unless they were prior enlisted- the same as the average ROTC graduate.
Otherwise everything CadetMom777 is telling you is pretty much dead on target.

Spot on Bruno. I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions on SAF. Although it is true that the time at a SA counts for FEDERAL Service, which means if you choose to work at a federal agency your 4 years at the Academy will count towards your federal pay.

pennak · Mar 22, 2011

Bruno. Great post. My ds has been admitted to vmi and has interviewed for Institute Scholar. Love to hear more about training at vmi vs the more gentle training at the SAs. Pm if you like. My DS wants to a marine recon

pennak · Mar 22, 2011

My DS has been admitted to Texas a&m vmi and citadel and is deciding which smc to go to. I would love to hear your insights

Packer · Mar 22, 2011

USMMA is on the radar. Lots of options at KP but may require exceptional dedication to study marine engineering for 4 years when your thinking about AF. I did see a few went to the AF out of last years KP class.

CadetMom777 · Mar 22, 2011

bruno said:
This is incorrect- your time at the Service Academy does not count toward either time in service for pay purposes or toward retirement. When the average Service Academy Cadet graduates - he or she will be an O1 with no time in service unless they were prior enlisted- the same as the average ROTC graduate.
Otherwise everything CadetMom777 is telling you is pretty much dead on target.

Appreciate the follow-up, Bruno. I stand corrected!

Packer · Apr 13, 2011

Other than guaranteed active duty, do the SMC's have any other advantages over ROTC at a typical college?

bjkuds · Apr 13, 2011

Their job placement rates far exceed the average college if they choose the civilian route, not to mention the personal attributes the cadets seem to display because of the discipline gained and leadership immersion they experience. I don't have to wonder if my DS is cutting class or living in a mess, or partying himself stupid. It is just a totally different environment all around. IMPO

bruno · Apr 13, 2011

Packer Other than guaranteed active duty, do the SMC's have any other advantages over ROTC at a typical college?

Well- from my perspective:Yes.
The entire life style is geared to teaching you how to live and lead in a regimented lifestyle, and succesfully learn to cope and flourish while under multiple prolonged mental, physical and emotional challenges. (Sound like the Army so far?) You will learn to function while you are tired, you will learn to do unpleasant things that you really don't feel like doing - because someone else with the authority to do so, has decided that it's necessary. You will learn to lead folks in tasks that you yourself don't really want to do, but it is your responsibility to uphold and execute the mission. Finally- you are going to discover that success that comes at the expense of personal honor and integrity is not acceptable. Your word is your personal bond and the Honor code envelopes and helps to define everything.
On top of all of that, (at least at VMI) you are a student at a very competitve small college where the professor's sole job is to teach. To facilitate that- you will have very small student /faculty ratios in your classes (typically usually under 20 and in upper class courses frequently under 10 per class), and the teachers will be readily available to provide you with personal assistance.
Last but not least- You won't be unique in taking ROTC (For example the VMI ROTC program has about 900 cadets in it and is the largest in the country http://www.vmi.edu/show.aspx?tid=36793&id=2626&ekmensel=8f9c37c3_190_194_btnlink). The size of the commissioning class guarantees that you will run into classmates or fellow alumni throughout your military career.
I've got a lot of experience in the Army and a lot in the corporate world as well, and the attributes that were ingrained as a part of daily life at VMI have served me and every classmate that I know, well in both military and civilian careers.
So- from my perspective- there are a lot of good reasons to go to an SMC. Are there things you give up to go there? You bet- there is a reason that Playboy last year ranked VMI as the "Worst Party School in the Nation" .

But: As Thucydides says:

"The ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school."
— Thucydides

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SpaKWHaxBE

Packer · Apr 13, 2011

Bruno - That is what I was wanting to know. Does it better prepare you for a career in the military and beyond? Great answer.

Son has sights on the AF. Does anyone have any thought on which SMC may have the strongest AFROTC program? Son is thinking Texas A&M if he does not get into the academy.

sprog · Apr 19, 2011

Packer said:
USMMA is on the radar. Lots of options at KP but may require exceptional dedication to study marine engineering for 4 years when your thinking about AF. I did see a few went to the AF out of last years KP class.

Eureka! The forest is seen through the trees. Good response, Packer.

USMMA is great if you have an interest in studying the subjects surrounding the commercial shipping industry. I'm not saying that you have to end up in that field, but you must at least be interested in it enough to study it for four years (including one full year at sea on commercial ships). The school is not a "catch-all" SA.

Indeed, the SA "advantage" is service-specific. The "Academy" in the USAF is USAFA. Just because USMMA is a Service Academy, you don't get any special advantages if you go onto active duty in the Air Force. The same cannot be said of USAFA, where you do get a bit of a leg up. In fact, for the USAF anyway, Bruno's point about the SMCs giving a little help is also true. I met a few VMI grads in the USAF which, while nothing compared to the amount of USAFA grads I met, was more than the USMMA grads I came across (zero).

The truth is that USMMA is the best place for those kids interested in the maritime industry, with thoughts of spending some time working in that field, or, alternatively, going onto active duty. The key is that there must be an interest in what is taught there. I visited USMMA (and Maine Maritime) when I was a high school kid, as I wanted to go onto active duty and had heard of all these "options" that USMMA offered. I was lured by USMMA being a Service Academy, and erroneously felt that the school must be more esteemed than ROTC schools in the eyes of the Armed Forces because of this. After visiting KP and Maine Maritime, I realized that I had no interest in studying shipping, and I didn't even apply. To me, all the "options" in the world could not make up for the fact that I would be studying a subject for which, I realized, I had no passion or interest. I wanted to be a humanities major, and those places couldn't offer it to me.

Please know that USMMA is great at what it does...but don't be seduced by the SA status and think it's somehow a "better" path to a commission than going through ROTC (SMC or not). Clearly, the service-specific SAs do give you an advantage in the respective branches, but USMMA's curriculum is set for a specific purpose. It's the best place in the US if you want to go to sea, and it's great if you have an interest in shipping and also want a commission. It is NOT a panacea for those holding TWEs from the other SAs.

I feel safe in posting this on the SMC forum, as if I did on the USMMA site I'd be flamed and called nasty things (no rational criticism is allowed with a few of USMMA's most zealous defenders). I want it known that I think that USMMA is a great school for what it does, but I also want to commend Packer for seeing that, despite the "options" promised, it still requires a very focused level of interest in a VERY specific field.

sprog · Apr 19, 2011

Bruno's points about the SMC experience are pretty spot-on. As far as it being more advantageous than ROTC at a "regular" school, I'd say it depends on the kid. However, I like Bruno's point that there is a kinship in the AD world with SMC grads. There may not be as many of us as our SA counterparts, but you will for sure run into one or two while in uniform. At tiny Minot AFB, I ran into at least five VMI guys.

bjkuds · Apr 19, 2011

sprog said:
At tiny Minot AFB, I ran into at least five VMI guys.

Holy Freezing Duty Assignment :yllol:

I Shiver just thinking about it. :biggrin:

Don't tell my son that okay :wink:

bjkuds · Apr 19, 2011

sprog said:
Bruno's points about the SMC experience are pretty spot-on. As far as it being more advantageous than ROTC at a "regular" school, I'd say it depends on the kid. However, I like Bruno's point that there is a kinship in the AD world with SMC grads. There may not be as many of us as our SA counterparts, but you will for sure run into one or two while in uniform. At tiny Minot AFB, I ran into at least five VMI guys.

That is great though that the "Family/Brotherhood" isn't just hype when they talk about it on visiting weekends. DS came away thinking if the descriptions given were only 50% accurate then it was a far better school for him than he thought he would find.