ROTC question re Educational Delay

No, not scared, just frustrated that I can’t get the answer to the question I asked and am instead getting answers to questions I didn’t ask and didn’t ask on purpose. We are nowhere near the point of DS making a decision; rather, we are at the point of gathering data concerning what options are even available. It is not my decision to make or even influence.

I was ROTC in undergrad - while I'm sure it's changed some, I do have an idea as to what he would be getting himself into. I was not interested in grad school at that point so this is something I didn't look into and, even if I had, things change over time.

I also am very familiar with life in the military and where they can send you. I am a Navy brat and moved around a lot. My sister also went to the Academy and was a pilot during the 1st gulf war so Hussein was actively trying to kill her on a regular basis. I come from a family with a lot of military - father, sister, grandfathers, great grandfather, many aunts, uncles and cousins - mostly Navy but a couple Army and Marines thrown in there as well. And, no, not every family member speaks glowingly about life in the military – they have all been very straightforward with DS.

We are simply trying to figure out his options so he can pick the path that works for him. He will need to consider the pros and cons of each path and figure out which one is the right one for him. While some kids change their minds over time (I was one of them - I never considered going to law school until a year before going), others don't (DH knew he wanted to be an aerospace engineer from a very early age and now has a PhD in it and is a NASA engineer). DS is a determined kid. I will honestly be surprised if he doesn't stick to this path.

And, no, my uncle is not in his sixties, he's barely older than I am. My mom was the oldest and the only child of her dad who was killed in WWII after graduating from the Academy. My uncle is one of the younger kids from my grandmother's second marriage to a Naval aviator, a retired rear admiral.

DS is interested in Johns Hopkins because it has the highest ranked biomedical engineering program in the country. We are well aware that a student's GPA is more important than the prestige of the undergrad school with respect to med school admissions and some people even recommend going to a school and selecting a major that will allow the student to earn a high GPA. If he were only interested in med school, Hopkins isn’t necessarily the best plan, but with the desire for a PhD in BME as well, the school will matter more. And, it’s not my decision to make, it is his decision. I'm still keeping VCU in front of him - they have great merit scholarships and a guaranteed admission program for med school so he could get an admission to med school before he graduates high school.

We are also well aware of the merit scholarships available; however biomedical engineering is not a major offered at a lot of schools. Some of the options on his list are the Presidential Scholarship at Ga Tech, the Jefferson Scholarship at UVA and the Presidential Scholarship at VCU but none of these are guaranteed. Competition for all of these is stiff. While he is a very accomplished kid, is he top 30 in the country to get the Jefferson or top 50 in the country to get the Ga Tech scholarship? I really don’t know and no one could count on those odds. Yes, Hopkins gives out merit scholarships in the engineering school – a whopping 2 of them. The competition at Hopkins, since they are the #1 biomedical engineering program, will be even stiffer. As spectacular of a kid as I think he is, I really don’t think he’s one of the top 2 students that will apply to JHU’s engineering school this fall.

In case anyone is interested in the answer to the question I asked, whether an educational delay can be granted for a 7-8 yr MD / PhD program, DS emailed a few ROTC recruiters at the schools he's interested in yesterday evening and has already heard back from the AFROTC guy at Ga Tech. While he understandably and expectedly said that he can't guarantee such a delay would be granted, he did say that the MD / PhD program DS described would be within the scope of an educational delay granted by the Air Force to ROTC grads.
 
No, not scared, just frustrated that I can’t get the answer to the question I asked and am instead getting answers to questions I didn’t ask and didn’t ask on purpose.


In case anyone is interested in the answer to the question I asked, whether an educational delay can be granted for a 7-8 yr MD / PhD program, DS emailed a few ROTC recruiters at the schools he's interested in yesterday evening and has already heard back from the AFROTC guy at Ga Tech. While he understandably and expectedly said that he can't guarantee such a delay would be granted, he did say that the MD / PhD program DS described would be within the scope of an educational delay granted by the Air Force to ROTC grads.

I think the answers some have given here are the same your son received from the AFROTC, no guarantees, that will be the short answer from every ROTC. Sounds like you got an answer regarding the length of ED's, this may not be the case from all the services, and it could very well change even in the Air Force in the next couple years.

The posts that were written here are based on experiences of current cadets and their families that have gone through the current process and have seen major changes in just the last couple years. The point of the posts may have been beyond the scope of your original question but they have merit all the same. Far to many applicants look for ROTC to pay for schools that they could not otherwise afford, not realizing that with some of the current changes they could end up being on the hook for all that tuition. Even though the topic has strayed from the original question the posts are still very relevant. There are cadets every year that were top of their class in high school that don't make it through the first year of ROTC, it happens and people here have seen more then they would have liked. Finding out options is a great idea, just remember that getting the whole picture is even better.

Glad you could get an answer regarding length of ED from AFROTC. The main point that has been brought up on this thread is whether your son is willing to risk getting the ED, if he doesn't he will be off to Active Duty with a Branch or Job he may not want and unable to continue his education. We were just trying to outline the pitfalls of the current ROTC environment.
 
patesq,

Just curious, what kind of Program is that where they combine the Master's and Doctorate programs into one? 7-8 years, is that counting a residency or something because I had always been told it was 2 years for a Masters and 4 for a PhD. Is this only meant for students going the pre-med route? If not then I might be interested. I also want to continue my education on the doctorate level, only in Nuclear Engineering (attending Ga Tech this year actually), but know that I could only realistically expect to receive an ED for my masters, if that. I'm ok with having to complete my graduate work later on, however, I'd rather get the majority of my education out of the way all at once if there is an opportunity to that is reasonably attainable and if the pros outweigh the the time commitment attached to them. Don't get me wrong, I desperately want to be a part of the military and am more than willing to do my time plus a few years, but I don't feel I'm not prepared to take on something that would likely prevent me from getting a job in my desired field outside of the military until I'm in my mid 40s (If I end up making a career out of the military then I want it to be cause I want to and not because I'm contractually obligated there for another 10 years or so). If that is the case then it would be better to just go to school while serving my time. But I'd like to at least hear about this program if you would be willing to oblige me:smile:.
 
Last edited:
patesq,

I think you are truly missing the point.

Contact every ROTC det in the world, have a party at it, we don't give 2 flying hoots.

What we are saying is nowhere in any of your posts do you state he wants to serve the military, or more importantly his desires.

Re-read your last post. Count how many I's and we's, and how few he's in your post.

We can all blow smoke up your arse,

Here goes: He is eligible and it can happen!

If that is what you want to hear you got it. All we were doing was telling you it CAN happen, but don't bank on it, hope for the best be prepared for the worst.

I got it! You want the smoke. So there you go...go forward, I will sit in the corner and color!

Non-Ducor,

There is a great program that you can get your Masters and PhD through the AF for non-medical. Highly competitive is saying the least. RAND offers it. It is is 3 yrs. Christcorps DS and Hornet are both in the program. Both are AFA grads. They can help you regarding the process.
 
Last edited:
DS is a determined kid. I will honestly be surprised if he doesn't stick to this path.

You may not like how we have posted things in response to your question, but your response is an interesting one.

You said it yourself - your son is a determined kid and you would be surprised if he doesn't stick to his path.

Most of our kids have had paths, some pretty well-defined when they started, but they often didn't land where they wanted from a job standpoint in the military, afterwards.

However, the military's path is not necessarily your son's. He may be focused and want this one specific career path. That doesn't mean the Army wants him to have that career path.

Asking himself these questions now will help mitigate other difficult decisions, later. If he isn't ready to do what the Army wants him to do career-wise, then he might not want to even pursue going through the hoops for the scholarship.

These are important questions and even though we veered off path, it was with the best of intentions. I wish someone would have steered us correctly when my son was applying to ROTC all those years ago.

Best of luck to your kid.
 
gojira said:
Most of our kids have had paths, some pretty well-defined when they started, but they often didn't land where they wanted from a job standpoint in the military, afterwards.

However, the military's path is not necessarily your son's. He may be focused and want this one specific career path. That doesn't mean the Army wants him to have that career path.

Asking himself these questions now will help mitigate other difficult decisions, later. If he isn't ready to do what the Army wants him to do career-wise, then he might not want to even pursue going through the hoops for the scholarship.

These are important questions and even though we veered off path, it was with the best of intentions. I wish someone would have steered us correctly when my son was applying to ROTC all those years ago.

+1 :yay::worship::yay::worship:

We are not your enemy. We are parents that lived through not only the scholarship process, but also 4 yrs in ROTC and the commissioning process.

Scholarship for parents like myself (AFROTC) and Gojira (NROTC) was a noose around the neck for 4 yrs from a fear factor for both our children and ourselves. It worked out for my DS, SO FAR, but not for Gojira's DS. IF our DS busts UPT, he will be hit financially like Gojira's.

Your choice...ostrich or reality regarding scholarship. Our kids were just as academically gifted as yours. Gojira will be the 1st to state her DS did not commission because he was 8 lbs over weight. DH at 5'11 maxed in the 190's...we are not talking fat here!

You stated you were in ROTC, but never stated you served AD, did you go AD? If you didn't why not? Just asking, not trying to rile you! Did you quit because 2 yrs into it you realized it was not for you? Are you positive that 2 yrs into it it won't be for him?
 
Last edited:
I remember some of my early posts on this forum where I asked questions. I got answers to all kinds of questions except for the one I asked and I already knew or thought I knew the answers I was being provided. At times it felt like I was being lectured and I occaisionally got a little testy over this. But you know what, everyone on here is trying to help and in the midst of all of those answers to questions you didn't ask there will be some real gems. I have certainly learned a lot from the answers to those unasked questions and some have caused me to think about some things that I had not thought of before. Also, there are a lot who come here and lurk and they wil find a lot of the information they need in the midst of all this.

Good luck to your son and if you are willing to keep participating I bet we will learn something from your son's experience in all of this.
 
Scholarship for parents like myself (AFROTC) and Gojira (NROTC) was a noose around the neck for 4 yrs from a fear factor.

If that isn't the truth.

I can remember sitting in my office a week before my son's commissioning thinking to myself.."For God's sake kid don't do anything stupid, just one week to go"

My son's tuition would have been bad enough, I can't even imagine paying back John Hopkins tuition if it wasn't something we could have afforded from the beginning. To be honest, my son avoided any school that had tuition higher then what we had saved for college. We held that money tight until we pinned on those bars and he took the oath.
 
Jcleppe,

OMG, I am with you on that...don't break a bone, don't drink and drive! For the love of God study for your finals! Bullet and I did not breathe a sigh of relief until he took the oath. Of course now we are back into the baited breath for UPT!


Our DS lived in fear because he not only had the AFROTC scholarship, but the merit college scholarship.
Honestly, I don't think a semester passed without him calling in fear that he wouldn't pull a 3.2.
Add in PFT, and SFT/EA than the career boards and I am positive that you and I lived the same life. WOO HOO he cleared that hurdle...9 weeks later OMG...repeat for 4 yrs and rinse!

Yes, patesq, that is ROTC life as a parent. Anybody telling you different is selling you a bridge in Brooklyn or land in FL that has water issues!
 
Jcleppe,

Our DS lived in fear because he not only had the AFROTC scholarship, but the merit college scholarship.
Merit scholarships don't typically have to be paid back if you screw up.
 
Packer,

You are correct, but merit typically requires a higher cgpa than ROTC scholarships.
 
patesq,

I do see how you asked a question about what is possible, and you got 30 replies about what you should do...

I see you received an answer from the AFROTC cadre.

Now, just use a little bit of basic probability to help you advise your son about risk and reward:

Assuming your son is awarded an AROTC scholarship to Hopkins, and gets into Hopkins:

1) 35% chance he'll not like ROTC, or hate pre-med science courses, or get a few C grades first year, and drop out, then tranfer to a local state school (since as you say you cannot afford Hopkins without the AROTC scholarship). Therefore, 65% chance he'll keep on the path at Hopkins.

2) 50% chance he won't be granted Ed Delay, but instead will be assigned to a Branch at Commissioning and owe four years of Active Duty. Therefore, 50% chance he'll get Ed Delay after successfully completing AROTC.

3) 25% chance he'll hate the Program he enters into for Ed Delay, and drop out. Therefore, 75% chance he'll keep on that path.

Multiply those % of successful outcome from the three steps: 65% * 50% * 75% = 24% chance the path you describe will pan out. If he is fine with those odds, then the reward is clearly worth the risk to him.
 
Packer,

You are correct, but merit typically requires a higher cgpa than ROTC scholarships.
Yep but still not as scary as having to come up with 4 years worth of ROTC benefits $$$.
 
Patesq,

I am sorry that you feel that we are all piling on you.

We were actually trying to help. The overwhelming sentiment of caution expressed by almost every poster on this thread is due to the following:

(1) the plan on the table requires perfect alignment of all nine planets and all the comets in the solar system. Yet, it can happen, but it's way too risky, and we all felt that by the sound of it, your/your son may not be factoring into the more likely scenario of the plan not working out. Meaning, instead of pursuing his MD/Ph.D path, he may end up serving in some remote post half away around the world.

(2) None of us got the impression that your son has a real passion for serving in the military, NOT as a doctor after 11-12 years of education, but as a grunt (the lowest ranked officer) doing "military stuff". Did he grow up DREAMING of becoming an officer, relishing the life style of an officer, loving the community of military personnel? There was no such indication. Instead, we read that your son needs scholarship money to afford expensive JHU education. This is an alarm bell ringing in all of our heads.

(3) In your post, there is no indication that your son is excited about the college life style as an ROTC cadet that includes some stuff no normal college kid would tolerate (like getting up at 5 AM several times a week). I stand by my earlier statement that the ROTC cadets who succeed are the ones who enjoy the PROCESS, not just the reward at the end of the tunnel. If they don't enjoy the process, they won't emerge as the best of the best. And, your son needs to be best of the best to snag an amazing prize (7-8 years worth of ED).

Regarding your statement that your son is so determined for the future goals, he will stick to it no matter what, well, let me share a story of my S1. During his high school, he became a semi expert in international finance. He read the content of an entire library on related subjects. He was taking college level international finance and economics courses and getting straight A's. He found internship as a high school kid in prestigious wall street firms on his own, through his own merit. He got a grand prize at a national scholarship contest on economics and finance. He was totally devoted to the idea of joining Wall Street as soon as he graduates from college. He even said, if anybody takes him without college degree (since he already knew the stuff at the college senior level), he will skip college. This is the reason why we let him turn down a full ride scholarship from couple of good school so that he could go to a USNWR top 5 school that is considered a wall street feeder school as a full pay student. I remember joking that if he changes his mind, it will be a $240K investment down the drain.

Guess what, during the second year in college, he changed his mind. He got hooked for math and computer science. He is no longer interested in a wall street career. He believes that kind of a profession generates no real social value, and he would rather do something that brings real innovation and real value to the world. Can you imagine what disaster it would be if he/we took upon himself/ourselves a student loan of this magnitude thinking that a highly lucrative wall street career will allow him to pay back this loan in no time, and therefore the loan is justified? (BTW: we actually know a young man who incurred over $200K student loan in ultra expensive school. He knows that he will be paying this debt the rest of his life).

For S2, the ROTC kid, we are prepared to cough up the full 4 year private school tuition for the school he is attending now just in case he changes his mind at the last minute. Not likely, but anything can happen. Nobody should assume that a 16 or 17 year old's declared goal is etched in stone. We would have never let him attend that school if we had not put aside the full tuition we could pay for without the scholarship.

I am sorry if we all sound preachy. We are actually trying to help. If your son is actually really gong ho and totally psyched up with the idea of military life style regardless of the scholarship issue, even without a dime of the scholarship money, then I am sorry to have said what I said earlier. It's just that your post did not mention at all whether he is totally excited about all things military.

again we were all trying to help. If we came across as bunch of naysayers, I am truly sorry. I wish you and your son the very best. I will now shut up.
 
2) 50% chance he won't be granted Ed Delay, but instead will be assigned to a Branch at Commissioning and owe four years of Active Duty. Therefore, 50% chance he'll get Ed Delay after successfully completing AROTC.

I can't remember the exact numbers but I know that far less then 10% of the cadets last year received an Educational Delay. a 50% chance would be awfully optomistic.
 
From an AFROTC perspective, 10% is more like it.

DS's commissioning class had 26 cadets. 0 went ED. His det was number 1 in the nation according to AFROTC HQ. His college is ranked within the top 20 for public universities according to USNWR, Fortune and Money.

Patesq,

I hope our responses will not make you leave because you think we don't get you.

We get you more than you can imagine at this point. Old adage, but true:
Been There
Done That
Got The T-shirt

We were where you are now, but we aren't recruiting your child, we have no skin in this game. Instead, we have experience from watching our own children and the cadets/mids within their own det/units. Been there, done that, got the shirt!

The real question you should have asked GT was what % of your AFROTC got ED last yr? Make sure you follow that up with what % of C100's commission 4 yrs later? I'd be shocked if it is anything higher than 35%. Do the math, if 10% of the 400's get ED, but the 400 class lost 65% from the start as a 100, we are not talking great chances. 100 enter, 35% graduate, 10% get ED, that is 3.5%.

FWIW as a VA resident, UVA and VCU are night and day academically. UVA is a reach school even for top students IS (UVA is ranked nationally in the top 5), VCU is a safety for mid-stream students, pull a 1280 SAT and you almost have a guaranteed admittance within 2 weeks (rolling). I don't know if this thread diverted somewhere along the line to the assumption JHU was his dream school. UVA and JHU I get academically. JHU/UVA and VCU, I don't get.
 
Last edited:
Not everyone wants ED. The percentage that matters is what percent of those that requested ED received it. Pima's example leads one to believe everyone is considered for ED thus a low percentage.
 
On Slide #7 of the deck accessed at the top of this link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ing_11_apr_2011.pptx+purdue+rotc+ADSO&ct=clnk

118 cadets applied for ED and 108 were granted.

It further breaks it down on slide #21 to show that out of ROTC, there were 20 slots for ED into Medical Corps, with 50 applicants, but then that there were 45 approved. It turns out there were 25 slots added to the original 20 for MC by borrowing from ED categories that were underutilized. So, we see that for FY11, 40% of the eventual demand for Medical Corps ED was budgeted, but an adjustment to the budget allowed for a 90% approval rate (45 granted /50 requests) into Medical Corps ED.

On slide #27, we see that the prior year, FY10, there were 27 request for MC ED and 20 were granted = 74%

I don't recall seeing statistics from any other years of ROTC. I do know that out of West Point, the number was much lower... can't remember exactly, but I seem to recall under 10 West Point cadets went from WP to Med School. I do have the stats for Annapolis and NROTC. In FY11, 10 Mids went directly from Annapolis to Med School, and 15 NROTC (excluding prior military, called STA-21) mids went to Med School out of NROTC.

Who can predict what might happen in a different year. There could be 15 slots and 60 applicants, or 30 slots with 50 applicants.

Of course, what we don't know is how many did not apply for Med Corps ED because they applied to med schools but didn't get into any That is very common! In the case of patesq, her son could intend to pursue medical school, and have good odds to get approval from Cadet Command out of ROTC, but fail to get into any med school. Then patesq's son would either have to apply to a different ED, or simply commission into one of the 16 available Army branches and serve there for four years (or Reserves or ANG for 8 years), then apply to med school after fulfilling his service obligation.
 
Last edited:
On Slide #7 of the deck accessed at the top of this link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ing_11_apr_2011.pptx+purdue+rotc+ADSO&ct=clnk

118 cadets applied for ED and 108 were granted.

It further breaks it down on slide #21 to show that out of ROTC, there were 20 slots for ED into Medical Corps, with 50 applicants, but then that there were 45 approved. It turns out there were 25 slots added to the original 20 for MC by borrowing from ED categories that were underutilized.

So, we see that 40% was budgeted, but an adjustment to the budget allowed for 90% fill rate into Medical Corps ED.

Who can predict what might happen in a different year. There could be 15 slots and 60 applicants, or 30 slots with 50 applicants.

Everyone of my pre-med buddies got their ed delay but that really isn't the overarching issue. The biggest deal is how great of a candidate you are for graduate medical studies. A few of those army ed delays I know are sitting twiddling their thumbs because they did NOT get into med school this cycle. Four years of pre reqs and a BS degree later they are scrambling to improve their curriculum vitae and study up for a retake of the MCAT. They have to apply for a year extension from the army for an additional year ed delay and early reports don't sound great. I know one in particular who is trying to get reserves so he can continue his dream. By the way all of these guys were well within the bounds for MD acceptance, the stars just didn't align this year.

Off topic but this is what happens when you are an unemployed stress out 2LT hoping for someone to give him/her a shot at med school. It sort of relates to the OP because most of these guys can't see themselves doing anything besides medicine and they have worked 4 years for this shot ROTC and academia wise. However, reality might dictate another path not really desired but necessary in order for them to serve their years.
 
Back
Top