ROTC question re Educational Delay
- Thread starter patesq
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Right, I was typing that into my original post edit while you were typing yours. Whether a person like patesq's son doesn't end up applying ED b/c they know they can't get into Med School with their stats, or gets ED MC granted, but doesn't get into Med School, the end result is that there is some probability that both won't happen together... is that 30%, 50%? 80%? whatever it is, it has to be factored into the risk/reward equation at the outset, b/c is patesq's son isn't hot on Infantry, or Transportaion, or any other form of Active Duty service within the 16 available branches, then patesq's son needs to face that risk and assess it now, rather than later.
I wouldn't want to be that cadet that took an AROTC scholarship to an expensive private school, and then in the middle of my Junior year realize my med school prereq (Bio, Chem, Ochem, Calc, Physics) GPA is 3.0 (which is actually pretty good for those courses at Hopkins), that my multiple practice MCATs were showing 50%, realize I had no shot at Medical School, then realize I really don't want to be in the Army if I am not going to be an Army Doctor, and then voluntarily drop out of ROTC owing the government $160,000 in pay back at that point (which I can't come close to affording which is why I took to ROTC scholarship in the first place). Yikes.
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Ok, I know I'm going way off topic here but I have a question.
Tuition at John Hopkins is in the neighborhood of $200,000. Expensive neighborhood.
I can't even imagine what tuition would be if someone took a 7 to 8 year ED and spent those years in school.
I am not up on all the in's and out's of the current student loan climate, neither son has had any so were out of the loop on that. Once they finish the Med/PHD and I would imagine since they can not afford the tuition at JH they can't afford the tuition for the other. How long after they complete school would the payments for these student loans start, I would imagine that payment would eat a big chunk of a new officers pay. I understand there is a SLRP that can pay for student loans but again I can't imagine they would pay the entire amount. Even with what they do pay there is an extra obligation due the Army, how may years would that tack on.
I hope the OP understands that even if they do get the ED, tuition is on the students dime, not the Army's
Sorry to derail the conversation, I just started adding up the costs in my head and got dizzy.
Tuition at John Hopkins is in the neighborhood of $200,000. Expensive neighborhood.
I can't even imagine what tuition would be if someone took a 7 to 8 year ED and spent those years in school.
I am not up on all the in's and out's of the current student loan climate, neither son has had any so were out of the loop on that. Once they finish the Med/PHD and I would imagine since they can not afford the tuition at JH they can't afford the tuition for the other. How long after they complete school would the payments for these student loans start, I would imagine that payment would eat a big chunk of a new officers pay. I understand there is a SLRP that can pay for student loans but again I can't imagine they would pay the entire amount. Even with what they do pay there is an extra obligation due the Army, how may years would that tack on.
I hope the OP understands that even if they do get the ED, tuition is on the students dime, not the Army's
Sorry to derail the conversation, I just started adding up the costs in my head and got dizzy.
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SLRP is in the neighborhood of 20k per year and maxes out somewhere in the 60-70k range I think but don't quote me.
Pima
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I can't say for the Army, but if I recall correctly for the AF it is 1.5 yrs per yr. and it runs concurrent with assignments, promotions and PME. So if it is 8 yrs, they owe 12 yrs.
This is also how the waters get muddy. Assume he can bolt at 20, but because of his commitment they can PCS him at 18 to anywhere in the world. That means a remote to Korea for a yr with follow on for three yrs, bringing you up to 22. Do not fool yourselves, they will do this!
Bullet sweated bullets for months before he hit the retirement button. We moved at his 18 yr marker, and that meant he had to stay until 21 (3 yr assignment), you can give notice up to 1 yr. He hit that button at 8 a.m., by noon he got a phone call from AFMPC, do I have this right, you are separating? Yes! Okay, good for you because you were number 1 in the entire AF for remote and at the end of the month we were cutting orders.
They are not stupid at manpower. They know how to use the system. Accept a promotion, they own you. Accept PME, they own you. Take a bonus, they own you. Just when you thought you were free they jig the system so they can own you for a little bit longer, i.e. PCS you to Europe, hard to interview for a job stateside if you are in Germany, accept the PCS back stateside, THEY OWN YOU!
This is also how the waters get muddy. Assume he can bolt at 20, but because of his commitment they can PCS him at 18 to anywhere in the world. That means a remote to Korea for a yr with follow on for three yrs, bringing you up to 22. Do not fool yourselves, they will do this!
Bullet sweated bullets for months before he hit the retirement button. We moved at his 18 yr marker, and that meant he had to stay until 21 (3 yr assignment), you can give notice up to 1 yr. He hit that button at 8 a.m., by noon he got a phone call from AFMPC, do I have this right, you are separating? Yes! Okay, good for you because you were number 1 in the entire AF for remote and at the end of the month we were cutting orders.
They are not stupid at manpower. They know how to use the system. Accept a promotion, they own you. Accept PME, they own you. Take a bonus, they own you. Just when you thought you were free they jig the system so they can own you for a little bit longer, i.e. PCS you to Europe, hard to interview for a job stateside if you are in Germany, accept the PCS back stateside, THEY OWN YOU!
what exactly is SLRP, and how does that relate to patesq's son assessing the risk and reward of using an ROTC scholarship for Hopkins?
I assume you mean that Med/PHd school will cost, say $200k (the PhD part is probably fully funded, so no tuition involved), and that at O-3 pay after the Med/PhD program it would be hard to pay back that $200k. I also infer that perhaps the Department of Defense will relieve some of that loan in exchange for serving as an Army Physician using "SLRP"? Finally, does SLRP apply to a cadet who goes ED for Med School?
*edit* Never mind, I looked up the Hopkins Med/PhD program and it seems it might be fully funded... as though it were pure PhD, PLUS it pays $27k+ per year in Stipend. In this case, even though the odds are very long, patesq's son could have Hopkins undergrad paid for by ROTC, then go ED for 8 years also fully paid, then I assume spend 2-3 years of General Residency, at which point he is 33-34, then start his 4 year ADSO with the Army. So, at about 38 patesq's son would have the option of staying in the army, or separating from Army and entering civilian life as an MD/PhD ... debt free and probably with about $160k in the bank (saving half the Stipend paid during the MD/PhD program, and a third of his O-3 pay while serving).
I think I'm starting to understand why this is so attractive as an option to patesq's son.
I assume you mean that Med/PHd school will cost, say $200k (the PhD part is probably fully funded, so no tuition involved), and that at O-3 pay after the Med/PhD program it would be hard to pay back that $200k. I also infer that perhaps the Department of Defense will relieve some of that loan in exchange for serving as an Army Physician using "SLRP"? Finally, does SLRP apply to a cadet who goes ED for Med School?
*edit* Never mind, I looked up the Hopkins Med/PhD program and it seems it might be fully funded... as though it were pure PhD, PLUS it pays $27k+ per year in Stipend. In this case, even though the odds are very long, patesq's son could have Hopkins undergrad paid for by ROTC, then go ED for 8 years also fully paid, then I assume spend 2-3 years of General Residency, at which point he is 33-34, then start his 4 year ADSO with the Army. So, at about 38 patesq's son would have the option of staying in the army, or separating from Army and entering civilian life as an MD/PhD ... debt free and probably with about $160k in the bank (saving half the Stipend paid during the MD/PhD program, and a third of his O-3 pay while serving).
I think I'm starting to understand why this is so attractive as an option to patesq's son.
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SLRP- Student Loan Repayment Plan, Aglahad is pretty close with his cost estimates.
This has nothing to do with the risk of getting a scholarship, it's just that if they can't afford that tuition how does he expect to pay the rest of it.
If the kid wants to stay on the same pattern of high end schools, @200k would be cheap for med school, and why would the PHD be fully funded and by whom.
I'm sure the Army will pay for some of the cost but at how many years and would that new officer be willing to put in that extra time, which would not be just a couple years.
Even if he was able to use the SLRP for partial med school the outstanding loans would be significant, Military pay is not private practice pay, the loans could take a while considering the extra obligation required by the Army to even take advantage of any repayment.
To me, this would add to the risk of debt vs reward.
Many research oriented PhD programs are fully funded... the student pays no tuition. As to why Hopkins would do that with an MD/PhD program, I don't know, but here is what the Hopkins website says:
"All eligible applicants who are admitted to the MD-PhD Program are considered for funding under the Medical Scientist Training Program. Approximately 8-10 MD-PhD students are selected annually to receive Medical Scientist Training Program (MSTP) awards. This program, supported by the National Institutes of Health, provides full tuition, stipend, and insurance for these students. Due to federal restrictions, only U.S. citizens and permanent residents are eligible for MSTP funding.
For the academic year 2012-2013, the annual stipend for students in the MD track of their training (Medical School Years I & II) is $27,032. The stipend for students entering the graduate track of their training in 2012-2013is $28,645. Health and dental insurance is covered for students during their training.
Each year, on average, one-to-two students decide to enroll as MD-PhD candidates at Johns Hopkins without MSTP funding.
It looks like 8-10 are fully funded, and 1-2 are not. And it appears to be no tuition PLUS $27k+ per year Stipend, which would cover full living expenses for a family of four. So not only does it not cost, it actually pays $230,000 over the eight years.
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I believe MD/PhD programs are fully funded because of their extreme difficulty and because most grads go into research to aid medical innovation and patient outcomes. A lot of grads go into the pharmacology research industry for new treatments and therapies.
The NIH and National Institute of General Medical Sciences fund the program
Haha you beat me to it Dunn.
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Mixing the military, funding and the quagmire that is the route to medical education is certainly enough to put parents on Xanax.
Pima
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I don't think Xanax is enough! 
I have lost the bouncing ball.
OMG where in the US can you live as a family of 4 on 27K a yr? Seriously let me know because I am selling my house tomorrow and moving there!
I can tell you where 27K + stipend in Baltimore will get you for a family of 2, let alone 4...high risk of drive by shootings houses! Section 8 occupants make more than 40K to qualify as a family of 4. This is not a resounding endorsement of why anyone should take this route. Seriously, isn't that poverty level?
I have lost the bouncing ball.
dunninla said:
OMG where in the US can you live as a family of 4 on 27K a yr? Seriously let me know because I am selling my house tomorrow and moving there!
I can tell you where 27K + stipend in Baltimore will get you for a family of 2, let alone 4...high risk of drive by shootings houses! Section 8 occupants make more than 40K to qualify as a family of 4. This is not a resounding endorsement of why anyone should take this route. Seriously, isn't that poverty level?
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I've been following this thread with quite a bit of amusement.
Now that everyone has figured out that the MD/Phd program is NOT being funded by Uncle Sam, the question returns to how to get a LONGER deferment on his ROTC payback time.
The problem here is that I don't believe there is a program currently available to allow a ROTC candidate to pursue a PhD in anything. There are various health sciences (MD DO etc) degrees that are paid for by the military that have specific program lengths. Fact is that most PhD programs do not have a proscribed duration - it is done when the thesis is done. I think that would be why you won't find a specific program for this particular type of degree.
I am also betting that there are fewer that 20 such doctors (with the PhD) in the Army today. I would bet that most of them had their degrees coming in. The few who may have acquired their PhD while in the military probably did time as a surgeon before going back to get the PhD.
My short guess is that since this is such a rare situation, there is no "program" to apply to. If the Army wants one of their budding surgeons to develop skills to work on a new generation of prosthetics, they will probably have that person serve his/her tour at that institution with the full knowledge that s/he is working on a specific project (development of the prosthetic) with the PhD being a side benefit.
I am surprised that our resident flight surgeon hasn't chimed in. Must be on vacation???
Now that everyone has figured out that the MD/Phd program is NOT being funded by Uncle Sam, the question returns to how to get a LONGER deferment on his ROTC payback time.
The problem here is that I don't believe there is a program currently available to allow a ROTC candidate to pursue a PhD in anything. There are various health sciences (MD DO etc) degrees that are paid for by the military that have specific program lengths. Fact is that most PhD programs do not have a proscribed duration - it is done when the thesis is done. I think that would be why you won't find a specific program for this particular type of degree.
I am also betting that there are fewer that 20 such doctors (with the PhD) in the Army today. I would bet that most of them had their degrees coming in. The few who may have acquired their PhD while in the military probably did time as a surgeon before going back to get the PhD.
My short guess is that since this is such a rare situation, there is no "program" to apply to. If the Army wants one of their budding surgeons to develop skills to work on a new generation of prosthetics, they will probably have that person serve his/her tour at that institution with the full knowledge that s/he is working on a specific project (development of the prosthetic) with the PhD being a side benefit.
I am surprised that our resident flight surgeon hasn't chimed in. Must be on vacation???
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Exactly, as I said stated a few pages back if the duel MD/PhD is the desired goal direct commission should be the preferred route to attain officership. I bet if the army does have some sort of medical research team with dual degrees most either DC or got their PhD somehow during their service. PhDs, as you said, can be indefinite. When you and your adviser sign off on your thesis and complete a rebuttal the process is largely done.
I am sure the OP can sift through these pages and figure out what info is relevant but even though there has been some lively conversations most of the info here is valid concerning her DS's situation.
I meant to shut up after my last post. But, I would like raise one more important fact.
OP says s/he found that educational delay of 7-8 may be possible.
A word of caution. That may be the case NOW. But we are talking about 5 years down the road for OP's son. A LOT can change between now and then, and I am afraid not in a good way when it comes to the kind of offers and benefits the military provides. The budget issues are looming. Untold amount of billions are supposed to be cut from the defense budget.
Even if OP's son's 7-8 year educational delay may not cost the military tuition money etc, he will still be on military payroll and benefit, right? Even if this is not the case, I have the feeling that if they are tightening the belt and create new guidelines and rules regarding how many slots are allocated for medical education delay and how many years are approved, they are not going to make individual exceptions case by case because somebody is costing the military less than expected.
Some historical data point:
My son has a good friend (class of 2012) who just got commissioned into Army reserve (by choice). When he was applying for the ROTC scholarship, if you are competitive enough to be admitted to good schools (say, USNWR top 50 or top 80), you had no problem getting 4 year scholarship even in very expensive private schools. In fact, this friend of my son's told me that at his $40+K tuition school, students who were interested in ROTC could "walk in" after the school year started, and get a full 4 year scholarship. I heard the same story from a PMS of a battalion which was serving 4 private schools, out of which two were exorbitantly expensive ($40+K tuition, and two were in the $30+K tuition range).
Fast forward. My son (class of 2015) tells me that his cadre at the battalion is warning everybody to walk a very straight line since the Army is looking for a way to disenroll students. There were a lot of horror stories along this line. Furthermore, 4 year scholarship to expensive private schools is becoming an endangered species. They are now starting to give 3 year scholarship to expensive schools. They are giving fewer scholarship and less expensive scholarships. They are significantly tightening the belt.
So, the OP should think about these two possibilities.
1. the defense budget is cut. However, the civilian economy is bouncing back very nicely and the military is losing a lot of officers to lucrative civilian jobs. As such, there is some incentive to keep and attract the top talents. In this case, the effects of the smaller budget may be offset by the need to give incentive to the top talents. However, I consider this scenario to be not extremely likely. Even if the economy recovers and booms, without on going conflict and war, the military is somewhat "over staffed" with regard to officers and they may not mind losing some officers to the civilian sector.
2. the defense budget is cut, and there is no exodus of officers to civilian sector. in this case, various measures will be put in place. Regarding the feedback based on the CURRENT assurance that 7-8 ED is possible, all bets are off and you can't go by what is the case NOW to plan for what one wants in 5 years.
************
again, none of us wants to rain on OP's son's parade. we are trying to provide feedback and advice based on what we have seen last several years.
Good luck.
OP says s/he found that educational delay of 7-8 may be possible.
A word of caution. That may be the case NOW. But we are talking about 5 years down the road for OP's son. A LOT can change between now and then, and I am afraid not in a good way when it comes to the kind of offers and benefits the military provides. The budget issues are looming. Untold amount of billions are supposed to be cut from the defense budget.
Even if OP's son's 7-8 year educational delay may not cost the military tuition money etc, he will still be on military payroll and benefit, right? Even if this is not the case, I have the feeling that if they are tightening the belt and create new guidelines and rules regarding how many slots are allocated for medical education delay and how many years are approved, they are not going to make individual exceptions case by case because somebody is costing the military less than expected.
Some historical data point:
My son has a good friend (class of 2012) who just got commissioned into Army reserve (by choice). When he was applying for the ROTC scholarship, if you are competitive enough to be admitted to good schools (say, USNWR top 50 or top 80), you had no problem getting 4 year scholarship even in very expensive private schools. In fact, this friend of my son's told me that at his $40+K tuition school, students who were interested in ROTC could "walk in" after the school year started, and get a full 4 year scholarship. I heard the same story from a PMS of a battalion which was serving 4 private schools, out of which two were exorbitantly expensive ($40+K tuition, and two were in the $30+K tuition range).
Fast forward. My son (class of 2015) tells me that his cadre at the battalion is warning everybody to walk a very straight line since the Army is looking for a way to disenroll students. There were a lot of horror stories along this line. Furthermore, 4 year scholarship to expensive private schools is becoming an endangered species. They are now starting to give 3 year scholarship to expensive schools. They are giving fewer scholarship and less expensive scholarships. They are significantly tightening the belt.
So, the OP should think about these two possibilities.
1. the defense budget is cut. However, the civilian economy is bouncing back very nicely and the military is losing a lot of officers to lucrative civilian jobs. As such, there is some incentive to keep and attract the top talents. In this case, the effects of the smaller budget may be offset by the need to give incentive to the top talents. However, I consider this scenario to be not extremely likely. Even if the economy recovers and booms, without on going conflict and war, the military is somewhat "over staffed" with regard to officers and they may not mind losing some officers to the civilian sector.
2. the defense budget is cut, and there is no exodus of officers to civilian sector. in this case, various measures will be put in place. Regarding the feedback based on the CURRENT assurance that 7-8 ED is possible, all bets are off and you can't go by what is the case NOW to plan for what one wants in 5 years.
************
again, none of us wants to rain on OP's son's parade. we are trying to provide feedback and advice based on what we have seen last several years.
Good luck.
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Thank you Pima! What is the name of this program? I'd want to contact the posters you mentioned, but I'd like to ask for it by name.
Marist College ROTC
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I asked COL Ling at DARPA for some input.
"Congratulations to this very excellent student. We need more like him!
First, I am very proud to say that the Army has a number of MuD
PHuDs. All have had and are having very rewarding careers. The
Army is the only service I would recommend to such students as we
have the most opportunities and thus best at utilizing these folks' unique skill sets.
As for Army sponsored Medical Scientist Training Programs (MSTP). There is not one. Most formal MD-PHD programs have built in MSTP scholarships. He
could take that and be only obligated for his ROTC scholarship. Another alternative is the student get an HPSP scholarship for the MD part and the student's advisor pay for the PHD. Typically, the PHD is paid by one's thesis advisor - whether or not he/she is MD/PHD or military. This was true for me at Cornell and what I have to do for my doctoral students at USUHS. Besides, the MD part is what costs the most.
Hope this helps.
Geoff"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/farber/249258089/
"Congratulations to this very excellent student. We need more like him!
First, I am very proud to say that the Army has a number of MuD
PHuDs. All have had and are having very rewarding careers. The
Army is the only service I would recommend to such students as we
have the most opportunities and thus best at utilizing these folks' unique skill sets.
As for Army sponsored Medical Scientist Training Programs (MSTP). There is not one. Most formal MD-PHD programs have built in MSTP scholarships. He
could take that and be only obligated for his ROTC scholarship. Another alternative is the student get an HPSP scholarship for the MD part and the student's advisor pay for the PHD. Typically, the PHD is paid by one's thesis advisor - whether or not he/she is MD/PHD or military. This was true for me at Cornell and what I have to do for my doctoral students at USUHS. Besides, the MD part is what costs the most.
Hope this helps.
Geoff"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/farber/249258089/
patesq,
Just curious, what kind of Program is that where they combine the Master's and Doctorate programs into one? 7-8 years, is that counting a residency or something because I had always been told it was 2 years for a Masters and 4 for a PhD. Is this only meant for students going the pre-med route? If not then I might be interested. I also want to continue my education on the doctorate level, only in Nuclear Engineering (attending Ga Tech this year actually), but know that I could only realistically expect to receive an ED for my masters, if that. I'm ok with having to complete my graduate work later on, however, I'd rather get the majority of my education out of the way all at once if there is an opportunity to that is reasonably attainable and if the pros outweigh the the time commitment attached to them. Don't get me wrong, I desperately want to be a part of the military and am more than willing to do my time plus a few years, but I don't feel I'm not prepared to take on something that would likely prevent me from getting a job in my desired field outside of the military until I'm in my mid 40s (If I end up making a career out of the military then I want it to be cause I want to and not because I'm contractually obligated there for another 10 years or so). If that is the case then it would be better to just go to school while serving my time. But I'd like to at least hear about this program if you would be willing to oblige me.
The program he is interested in is an MD/PhD program; it's not a master's program. Here's a link to one he is considering: http://www.pubapps.vcu.edu/bulletins/combined/?did=20012. Georgia Tech has one too but it doesn't sound like you're interested in the MD side of it. Sorry, I haven't done any research in to Master's/PhD programs. My husband did a Bachelor's / Master's program at Ga Tech in AE, so I wouldn't be surprised to see one. Good luck with your search!