ROTC scholarship at Virginia Tech

[gojack]

I have been thinking about this for the last few days. I was aware of it but had never thought of it as promoting the "easy route" before. My advice has always been to go to a school you like and is the best school you can get into. Typically the best schools one can get into are going to be more difficult. This seems like if you have 32 ACT scores and want to serve maybe you should play it safe and go to a school that has an average 24 ACT so you can more easily achieve high marks. I can't see how this serves the military or the person well. I know it is the system and there is nothing I am going to do that will change it. I can't in good conscience tell my own kids or any other kids to go to an "easy" school so you can get good grades. The grades are important but it is what you learn that will make you competent and successful in your field. I am obviously a bit conflicted on this.

I looked at it the opposite way, don't go to a 32 ACT average school when you have a 24 ACT, as in avoid the 'long shot' schools. DS initially was fascinated by ROTC at Vanderbilt, a 32 ACT school and he has a 27 ACT.
I suggested a school where he was eligible for the Honors program and it's more challenging course load, giving him the option to take it down a notch by dropping honors program if needed, or graduating 'with honors' if that worked out. I think applying to schools where he was a Honors student may have helped him get a scholarship as well-with no facts to back it up.

 

[Pima]

Gojack, the difference AFROTC compared to AROTC is AFROTC does not dictate the school the scholarship is tied to, thus the AFROTC candidate with a 32 ACT could go to the 24 ACT, so they can pump up the gpa... theoretically. AFROTC scholarships are done from a national approach, highest wins. Vandie would have never been in the equation regarding the AFROTC scholarship.

However, people tend to not realize that a lot goes into the SFT/AFSC board including the profile of the school and the det.

The boards are made up of OFFICERS, who also understand that engineering at MIT and getting a 3.2 in Astro Physics should not be placed on par with the 4.0 civil engineer cadet that goes to a school which isn't even nationally ranked for engineering. This is sim. to the cadet who gets a 4.0 in poli sci at the same school/det as the engineer cadet with a 3.5 computer major. They try to place everything into perspective when they rack and stack the candidate.

That is also why the AFOQT, SFT racking (DG, top 10%, top 30%, etc), PFT, and TBAS come into the equation. Those categories will illustrate the success of a cadet compared to their peers nationally for AFROTC. It allows them to see a different picture. The avg 17/18 yr old applying for an AFROTC scholarship does not even have these issues on their radar. They will hurt themselves IMPO if they try to take the easy route as packer was illustrating.

I have said it a million times, talk to det/BN/cadre before you go to far down the pipeline. The ROTC officers will not feel like you are wasting an hour of their time, it is something they are more than happy to do. They will also hook you up with cadets so you can talk to them privately if you choose.

As a ROTC candidate you are juggling many issues at the same time. You need to find the right fit academically, militarily and personally. That is hard for a 17/18 yo. Most kids choose the school because they fall in love with the campus or the intended academic program. ROTC candidates many times are emotionally torn between the school and the ROTC program.

I don't believe that there are many candidates like the scenario Packer outlined. I am sure there are, but my guess is that if the cadet opted that route of an easy college it was 1 of 2 things:
1. Financially:
I.E. got a Type 7 can't afford to convert for an OOS/private school to a 3 yr Type 2. Thus, take the safety.
2. Emotionally:
Personal issues at home, where going further away may be an issue even if they got the Type 1. That could mean anything from can't afford to go to the west coast when you live on the east to a seriously ill family member to the best school is 4 hrs away and you decided 90 minutes is the furthest you want to be.

I would also say to them that this would be a grave mistake, because there is no such thing as tweaking the system when you go AD. AF you will go AD, and later on that college degree will play into the system if you try to compete for very specialized schools. Ex: You want to go to TPS, it is a requirement that even as a pilot you have an engineering degree. That degree, is going to be a factor in selection.

This is also true coming straight out of college. The profile of the college regarding rigor and selectivity is going to matter. Look at who gets the most amount of fellowships and direct grad school admittances as a newly minted commissioned officer. The SA's do, and than it goes down the list regarding cadet academic rigor/rank and school profile.

By short selling with the hopes that it may appear to give an edge, you actually just shot yourself in the foot.

 

[gojack]

Pima,

Sorry, I should have stated, I have no opinion on any ROTC program
except Army... AF, Navy etc., I am clueless.

 

[Packer]

By short selling with the hopes that it may appear to give an edge, you actually just shot yourself in the foot.

Shortcuts don't tend to work, at least not long term. However, the AF Commander at a top tier university we have been in contact with us has told us that their SFT selection rates are right at the national average and he claims the primary reason that more are not selected is grades. The school is rigorous. The commander at a second university that is in the top 100 but ranked well below the first university had an 80% SFT selection rate this year and 100% selection for tech majors. Are grades the difference or are there other factors at play? It is pretty difficult to get to commissioning and career fields if you can't get SFT.

Gojack, your approach of going to a school that one is a match for the honors program seems to be a prudent approach. They will still be challenged.

 

[Pima]

gojack,

I knew you were Army, but as I usually remind people, I think of new posters and lurkers when I post, thus I try to always differentiate between the services and their unique approaches.

Army is not better than Navy, Navy is not better than AF, AF is not better than Army or the Navy.

They are like children or pets: different needs/requirements/personalities.

I just feel we need to make sure that every guest entering our home comprehends that fact. I would hate a candidate not apply for an AROTC scholarship because they believe the system is like the AFROTC scholarship system and vise a verse.

Packer,

This is why I always state to talk to the det. and ask %. There is a lot that goes into the equation for AFSC.

Let's be honest, VT has a great academic rep., but it isn't an IVY, however, it has a great ROTC Corp.

Selection is like scholarship selection, it is the overall perspective. I don't the school profile for the Top tier school compared to the lower tier. However, it is important to look at the det. Does the top tier school have military fraternities like HG or AAS? Believe it or not that is an EC the SFT/AFSC board will see on the packet.

Cadet Jones from MIT, is my top cadet.
~maintained a 3.965 cgpa in the engineering program.
~flight commander
~ PFT 96
~ Ranked in the top 10% at SFT.

Cadet Smith from ERAU, is my top cadet choice.
~DO for the cadets.
~Maintained a 3.42 cgpa in engineering
~ PFT score of 98.
~ Top 1% at SFT ~~~ SFT is national and it is not book smart issues, it is performance. The 2.96 gpa can be the DG.
~ Mentor to 4 GMCs.
~ Member of the Honor Guard
~~~~ Held leadership positions since 2009.

Taking the assumption AFOQT and TBAS are equal.

Who would you choose? In all likely hood it would be the ERAU cadet because he has illustrated more aspects of what the AF AD world wants for leadership.

Book smart is great, but they are not in the business of book smart, they are in the business of leadership.

I hope that explains to you why some schools perform better than others.

 

[gojack]

...approach of going to a school that one is a match for the honors program seems to be a prudent approach. They will still be challenged.

Thanks, I always enjoy a good debate. With all the high school kids that come on here, debating between various schools, I think it makes a simple rule of thumb, and someone with their heart already set on a school doesn't need advice on how to chose between schools.

The idea started when DS was offered scholarships at University of Arkansas (honors/28ACT) and University of Alabama (honors/27ACT) DS had a 27 ACT. I am guessing a degree 'with honors' from UA will look better than a degree without honors from another UA

 

[Packer]

Pima, It's just as clear as mud in some ways but crystal clear in others.
If that ERAU student had a 3.0-3.2 the outcome may be different. This is not the graduating gpa this is the gpa through 3 semesters I believe. Most gpa's hit a low at the end of freshman year and then climbs from there.
I think that so long as the selection rate is average or better and the school is an academic and personal fit that is as good as you can do. They have to do their best and be involved. If they are struggling academically it will be difficult to do well in the other areas as well. I think that fits with Gojacks comment on reach schools. A 2.5 at a reach school is not going to be as good as a 3.5 at a school that is a true fit. If you reach too far and are over your head you probably are not going to learn as much either.

V Tech is one of the schools on my son's interest list. It is only 2600 miles away! The closest non-Academy interest school is 2000 miles away. He is making visiting these schools a bit difficult. He will apply to some closer schools but he is not particularly interested in them at this time. Wise?

 

[gojack]

If they are struggling academically it will be difficult to do well in the other areas as well.

^^^ DS's PMS told him >2.5 GPA, no extracurriculars - no ranger challenge, color guard etc.,

 

[Pima]

Packer,

You know your DS better than anyone here. I can't say it is wise or unwise because I don't know him at all.

I can say that DD attends there and the only road bump she hit was around Columbus Day. We live 4 hrs away and she wanted to come home.

VT is still a state school it is not the Citadel or VMI. It has a lot of students that are not in the Cadre, and many that are in the Corp, also live in driving/train/bus distance. The dorms clear out for long weekends. He needs to really understand that fact. 10 will get you 20 he will say no problem. 20 will get me 40 that come mid-Sept., 4 weeks in and kids making plans to come home for the weekend this will be an issue. Been there, done that with ours. Seriously, we told her it is 4 hrs by car, don't expect us to be bringing you home on weekends. NO PROBLEM MOM, I DON'T WANT TO COME HOME! I WANT TO BE THERE AND LIVE LIFE!

Notice, I said she came home.

Upshot is that is traditional for freshman in the fall, by spring semester they are all hanging there. Heck, they even go back early from winter break to go to BBall games!

If I were you I would follow my traditional line...visit the dets. However, visit the ones that are in your area, guessing these are his back up schools.

I am not slamming any school that has a Corp. I am saying that there are many colleges with strong ROTC units that will give him the exact same feeling.

DS went to a traditional college with 2 big ROTC units. Army and AF. It is not host to NROTC, however on drill/lab days it is filled with students in ROTC uniforms. DS's roommates are AFROTC. They gravitate to each other. He spends his time between classes in the cadet lounge.

Granted DS never was into doing the "march" or pushups at the games like they do at VT, but he would be the 1st to say his training was just as strong as VT. If your DS wants to live a life where he gets to blend an SA life with college, than he needs to look at schools like VT. If he wants to be a college kid in a strong ROTC program, he should at least talk to the schools.

Understand, once AD nobody cares where you went to school. I have seen great military officers that went to colleges with small ROTC programs and crappy officers from the SA. Vise a verse too!

I think college selection is one time kids need to hear/listen to their parents advise/input. We have walked it, granted decades ago, but we all remember the emotions of that freshman yr. We all wanted to fly the coop like them, but we also remember that when we flew it, are 1st reaction was to search for our nest back home.

HS graduation is where we cut the 1st apron string, and we only cut one so we can still guide them when they are floundering. College graduation is where we cut the 2nd.

 

[Packer]

Honestly, not particularly concerned about the distance and home sickness with son. He spent 3 weeks in rural central Mexico last summer teaching English and we received one email that was not more than 15 words. He is a lot like I was at that age. I left home by myself and drove to a school 6 hours away, never called home and didn't come home until Thanksgiving (it bothered my mom as it will his). Other kids were going home every other weekend. I think it depends on the kid. I am more concerned that he knows what he is getting into before he moves 2000 miles away. It will be kind of a sink or swim situation.

Does the CoC at Vtech empty out on long weekends as well? I would guess at VMI not many leave or can leave.

 

[Pima]

Nick is the go to person for the clearing out question.

I can tell you when our DD came home, she did a share ride. I picked them up, and the other parent took them back. The girl who came home with us is an NROTC cadet.

Again, our DD is not ROTC, but has been adopted by many cadets as a pseudo cadet. I am sure you know they have their own dorm, and as freshman tvs, fridges are not allowed. Thus, compared to the other dorms they are not considered a hang out place. DD being raised in a military family connected with them and she actually would go over and hang there. She is a social butterfly, so no tv wasn't an issue, and IMPO she was smart because they also had study hours all yr long. She not only made friends, but also a place to study instead of the library!

I think they all also adopted her for different reasons as a cadet.

1. Female cadets still want to be girls, and it is hard to be in a male oriented world. Having a female friend that is not ROTC allows them both sides of the fence. They can be girly girly and be an officer.

2. Male cadets are still men. DD was the traditional girl that could introduce them to more girls. Being an AF officers DD helped because she could translate for them regarding the demands of ROTC and Cadre. Not many 18 yo girls understand that: Yes, this is college, but for me this is already my career, so if I say I can't see you tonight because I have to get my uniform in order, I am not blowing you off. I am getting my uniform in order.

My favorite story about DD is this one:

DD (AF brat) calls me up and informs me that she has 3 BFFS (the one in NROTC we brought home is one), and after a home football game they all were hanging out. Later that night 3 cadets ask them to go out to eat. 1 Marine, 1 Army, and 1 AF.

Caveat: Bullet as an AF officer also did 2 assignments with the Army.

I said to her: Oh please DD, don't tell me you are now dating a Marine?

Okay Mom, I won't tell you I am dating a Marine!

Let me rephrase DD: Are you dating a Marine?

YEP!

LMAO, Bullet did too! We agreed leave it to DD, she had to make sure she was the 1st and only!