SA required to accept at least one?

Discussion in 'Nominations' started by futuremarinemom, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. futuremarinemom

    futuremarinemom Member

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    Assuming that a MOC has at least one 3Q'd nominee, is a service academy required to offer an appointment to that nominee? Or is it possible for a slate of nominees to be submitted and an offer not be extended to a single one on that slate?
     
  2. flieger83

    flieger83 Super Moderator Moderator

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    If a MOC has an opening at an SA, and nominates either a slate of 10 for a "competitive appointment" or designates a "Principal Nominee" with alternates...then one of those nominees WILL be appointed to fill that slot.

    The only way that won't happen is if there are 10 for a "competitive appointment" and NONE of the nominee's meet the federally mandated minimum requirements for admission.

    This is EXCEEDINGLY rare but has happened.

    Steve
    USAFA ALO
    USAFA '83
     
  3. futuremarinemom

    futuremarinemom Member

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    That's what I thought. Now here's another question: Let's say the MOC has 2 slots open at a SA, but only 5 nominees (we're talking one of those under represented districts where there are very few applicants). Will both slots be filled from his/her slate of 5, or does he/she have to submit a slate for slot A and a slate for slot B?
     
  4. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    The MOC does not have to submit a slate at all, let alone 2 slates. He just will leave that 2nd appointment for next yr. They are allowed UP TO 5 charges at any time, key words UP TO, not MUST HAVE.

    If you read the link Luigi sent on another thread, you will see many MOC's in the districts you are speaking of leave the appointment vacant. usna1985 as a BGO was told that they have had 45 MOC's not nom anyone even when they have the ability to nom someone, anyone.
     
  5. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    You may wonder why an MOC would leave a slot open? MOCs want to (and are encouraged by the SAs) to have at least one opening each year. If they don't, they can't nominate anyone and that tends to annoy candidates/their consituents.

    So, here's how it would work . . . MOC A has 1 mid slotted to her in the USNA Classes of 2013, 2014, and 2015 and two in the Class of 2016 for her total of 5. Let's assume that the mid in the Class of 2015 decides to leave USNA before incurring his service obligation. MOC A now has 2 vacancies this year (one for the person in 2013 who will depart one way or another:smile: -- hopefully graduate) and one for the person in 2015 who left.

    However, the MOC would be encouraged only to fill one vacancy this year. Why? If she fills both vacancies for the Class of 2017, when the Class of 2015 graduates, she will have no vacancy (MOC A will have 2 each in the Classes of 2016 and 2017 and one in 2018 leaving none for 2019). So, that one slot would likely stay open until the Class of 2019 -- meaning the MOC would only have 4 mids at USNA for a couple of years.

    As you can see, it's complicated managing this can be tricky; the SAs, try to help but ultimately it's the MOC's call how to handle it.

    The above said, it's VERY RARE for an MOC not to nominate anyone in a particular year if there is anyone qualified. See below . . .

    Just to be clear, this is not exactly what I said. The reason these 45 MOCs did not nominate anyone is that there were no applicants (at least to USNA) in their districts. If no one in their district applies for a nomination, they can't very well nominate anyone. So, it's not as if they chose not to make nominations; they couldn't nominate anyone b/c there was no one to nominate.

    I'm not aware of MOCs refusing to/choosing not to nominate people when there are candidates they could nominate. Understand as well that those nominated by the MOC need not be competitive or even qualified. However, in order to obtain an appointment, the candidate must be 3 Q'ed.
     
  6. futuremarinemom

    futuremarinemom Member

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    It's hard to believe that there are districts that have no applicants at all, but I'm sure there are. I would think that a politician would want to promote the SA's and would proudly publicize the constituents that they nominate who receive appointments. But what do I know?
     
  7. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    My apologies for mis-reading your post about the 45 MOCs.

    To be honest that is just mind boggling, and it makes me wonder how these areas fare regarding enlistment. Are those areas also hard pressed to get enlisted members?

    Not trying to divert the thread. Just find it interesting.

    Back on topic.

    Yrs ago I was offered a position to work at the Pentagon as an AFA liaison to the Hill. The job was to track all of the cadets at the AFA. They actually have walls of color coded cards for every charged cadet, under every MOC's name. An MOC staffer can call at anytime and ask how many do we have that are C4C's, C3Cs, C2Cs, and C1Cs. They in turn can give them not only the yr groups, but their names too.

    One part of the job was to brief every June/July and Jan. the MOC's. They would be informed of how many are charged to them, and their yr groups, plus how many were available to be charged. The brief would also include the procedures for nominating and mandated time line dates for nom submission to the SAs.

    Jan. was the review of how many slates they submitted, and how if nothing changed how many they would have available next yr. This becomes a factor in election yrs because the charging is not to the MOC, but to their district or state. For example, Sen. Dole lost her seat a few yrs ago, Sen. Hagan took office in Jan., and she needed to know how many she had available for the following yr. Outgoing MOC's still submit their slates, so this has no impact upon the candidate, so don't fret. Whoever you submit to now, will be the one that makes the decision, it does not impact your life at all.

    MOC's are not flying by the seat of their pants. Their decision to nom or not nom comes with the full understanding how many slates they can submit. What they choose to do is their choice.
     
  8. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    future,

    I think it is more about socio-economical issues that can play into the equation.

    1st example: High teenage birth rate.

    Now that might seem like not an issue, but the fact is you cannot attend an SA with a dependent. If a great applicant, 3 Q, had a child as a 16 yo., and their name is on the birth certificate, they can't go to an SA. There is no reason to submit their name.

    2nd example: Family finances

    That 3Q'd applicant may also need to work to help the family out financially. They in turn decide to go ROTC scholarship, so they can go to school, work and get a ROTC stipend.

    Going to an SA is great, but if they are helping to keep a roof over their families head they know that there is a better option with ROTC.


    That leaves the MOC with noms that may not be 3 Q'd. The problem for those areas are not getting into an SA, but staying in from an academic perspective.

    AFA 24 ACT V or 490 CR will hurt the cadet/mid from an academic standpoint when the rest are hitting in the 30 or mid 600's. College moves a lot faster than HS, and SA's move at a faster pace than a traditional college. They would need prep., but if the MOC noms that slate with 5, the SA will take them if they are 3 Q'd (24 is AFA mins), and send them straight to the SA, not the prep.

    Should the MOC nom a kid knowing that this is Ivy league education and they don't have the foundation even for middle/lower tier colleges?

    In your opinion would you do that to a kid? Nom just for the sake of noming?

    The whole application process is painful. Tons of essays, interviews and medical exams, why put somebody through it just so you as an MOC can say I nom'd someone. I never was a Rangel fan, but on this one issue, I respect him for holding true to the SA's what is expected at an SA, and not using his ability to nom so he could publicize the noms. Their districts don't care about this issue, they care about getting grants for books and computers in their schools.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  9. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    USNA told us that the main reason that most of the districts without applicants have none is that people there aren't familiar with USNA (or the other SAs). Now that may seem strange or farfetched to those of us who grew up in a military family or lived near a SA, etc.

    But consider someone in the middle of Kansas who has no ties to the military and no one from his/her school has ever applied to a SA. Or someone in the inner city with the same issues.

    The fact is that there are places in this country where high school kids don't know about the SAs. And, in some places such as the inner city, if you're a highly qualified student, colleges are lining up with offers of scholarships, etc. And we're told that, to the extent these kids have heard of a SA, they or their parents think it's like enlisting. They don't really understand what a SA is about.

    This is the reason that USNA started its "outreach" program several years ago -- to introduce the Academy to these students in the hopes that once they hear about USNA, they may at least consider applying.
     
  10. futuremarinemom

    futuremarinemom Member

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    Good points, Pima. Thank you for your insight, usna1985.
     
  11. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    Back on target: What Steve said is correct. If the MOC submits a slate, and they have an opening, and there is at least one qualified applicant on the slate, the academy must appoint from the slate.

    On the second part of the question: If the MOC has 2 slots open, generally they will need to submit 2 separate slates to fill the 2 slots. Even if they put the same people's names on both slates. That's how they'll fill 2 slots.

    Here is the CATCH-22: If the person the academy offers the appointment to on the slate TURNS IT DOWN; the academy isn't FORCED to go back to that slate and take the next person in line. They can simply say that the MOC will have an extra slot available next year. This is very common. It happened to me this year. We had an appointee who turned down an appointment. The academy didn't take another candidate from the slate; and they were all qualified. They decided to take someone from the "National Pool".

    You have to realize that while we are all on the same team, the academy is in competition with the MOCs. The academy would love to be able to pick and choose ALL 1000-1300 appointees each year. The law however says that because ALL states pay taxes which support the academies, that the states get equal representation with appointees. In a normal year, assuming an average of 1 opening per moc, that would be approximately 535 appointments. (435 representatives and 100 senators). That leaves the academy approximately 500-800 appointments that they get to choose themselves. (100 presidentials "they choose", another 50-100 other military nominees that they get to choose; plus the remaining 400+ from the national pool). I think this is a pretty fair system. Unfortunately, the academy will try and sneak in a few extra when a MOC appointee turns it down. If the MOC "PRESSES THE ISSUE", the academy will back down and give them another appointee from the slate. However; most MOCs are busy, and don't keep up on it. So, if a MOC appointee turns it down, the academy many times will go to the national pool where they can select who to give the slot to.

    It is a very in-depth and complicated "and political" system. It has to deal with the diversity of ensuring all 50 states and territories get their equal allotment based on population. They also are trying to ensure the proper diversity in appointees to ensure that the officer corp is made up of "QUALIFIED" cadets/officers that are similar in makeup to the enlisted folks they are going to lead in the future. They also try to balance the diversity of the appointees to ensure that the cadet/academy educational experience is diverse and thus provides a more well rounded learning experience for all cadets. And they have to do all this while ensuring that the individuals selected can in fact accomplish the ultimate mission of the military.

    Sorry for the novel. But your original question isn't one that always lends itself to a simple yes/no answer. Mike....
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  12. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    usna1985,

    I get why they did it. I am not opposed to it because I have that rare trait, I believe and trust the military...as a business woman with a Masters, sometimes you need to understand there is a long term agenda that people don't get when they are looking for a rhyme or a reason.

    It is not personal, it is business. Anyone who believes that our military does not have this perspective in mind regarding their actions, needs to re-think their future in the military.

    My point from my post was to illustrate to future why MOC's may not fill a slot. Our last base was for all intentions, had one high school out of 12 that would be in the outreach. When DS graduated from another HS in the county, a student from your parameters in the same county in a low income area HS was accepted to MIT. The 1st student accepted to an IVY in over 15 yrs.

    He took an AFROTC scholarship (Type 1) and MIT merit; never applied to the AFA. He had a 3 yo,, thus, he was ineligible to go to an SA because he had a dependent. He commissioned this spring from MIT.

    That was my point to future. An MOC would love to nom, but sometimes because of other issues, they just can't nom the candidates that would be great in the SA world. They refuse to reduce their stds. just to say publicly as a politician, I did nom. These families in the socio-economic world, like Rangel, really don't care about noms. They care about books, computers, quality teachers, school safety without metal detectors.

    A blurb in the newspaper, or in the stairwell for a family living in this world couldn't care less about appointments.

    I get your position that somewhere in the middle of Kansas they have never heard of the USNA, but this is where we part on the outreach program.

    Middle of KS, is not like Rangel or Velasquez in Harlem and the Bronx. I lived in KS for a tour as a spouse. I lived in rural NC too. I can support this out reach program for the USNA if it comes to socio-economic issues. I can't support if the candidate is coming from a strong school and due to the fact that nobody applies they get appointed.

    Two different worlds. One world(NY) didn't have opportunities due to school issues financially. The other(KS) had the opportunities because the school offered everything, yet got in because nobody applied since they never heard of the USNA.

    To me USNA's outreach program needs to re-think their mission/focus/goal. The KS student is more about spreading the name. The NY student is about addressing the educational flaws in our national system.
     
  13. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    This is probably in violation of Federal Law. I know at least one of the other major SAs will search almost up until I-Day if the appointed candidate says no. They actually have a waiting list based somewhat on alternates for principals who have not yet decided. This is one of the principal reason they have deadlines for acceptance.
     
  14. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    That is called the pool.

    An MOC cannot be charged if the appointee is not a constituent.

    This thread needs to be blended.

    You have an AFA ALO and a USNA BGO saying the exact same thing when it comes to charging.

    Posters need to know/understand how charging works. There are many slates that 80% of candidates get apptmts. (8 out of 10). No MOC has 8 slots in 1 yr. as far as charging goes.

    Appointments does not equal charge to the MOC.
     
  15. mtnro

    mtnro Member

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    Just wanted to remind all that this thread is discussing the 3 military SA's. Coast Guard SA does not require any nomination & the Merchant Marine SA is by state ie any of the MOCs (and only a MOC-no vice presiden/president/JROTC etc.) in your state can nominate you and USMMA doesn't have to abide by the same min.
     
  16. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    In addition to what Pima so accurately posted; let me add a couple things.

    There are 3 ways a MOC can do nominations.
    1) Competitive: Simply provides a list of 10 names and the academy chooses one off of the list. They must choose one.
    2) Principal: The MOC says. "This is my #1". The academy MUST offer the appointment to that person if they are qualified. All other nominees are competitive and at the academy's discretion.
    3) Ranked: The MOC prioritizes all 10 nominees. The academy MUST start at the top and take the first qualified applicant.

    The remaining in ALL 3 scenarios then go into the national pool. This is the "WAITING LIST" that you are referring to. You said "Alternates for Principals". The thing is; MOST MOC's don't do a "Principal" nomination. So basically; 1 is chosen from the list and ALL others go to the national pool. "Wait List".

    The original contention in the thread however was if the academy HAD TO TAKE one from the list. The answer is YES. HOWEVER; the caveat is if they choose one from the list, offer them the appointment, and the individual turns it down. Technically; the academy has done what it's by law suppose to do. If the individual turns it down, the academy DOES NOT have to choose another from that list. Many times they will. Some times the MOC will INSIST and the academy will. But; if the MOC doesn't insist that a REPLACEMENT come from their list, the academy is free to choose from the National Pool. (Wait List). This individual WILL NOT BE CHARGED to the MOC. (That IS illegal). But the academy doesn't have to fill the MOC's slot if the one that was chosen declines the appointment.

    Another area that similarly happens on a regular basis is the individual who receives an EARLY appointment (Oct-Nov) with a presidential nomination. If after the MOC nominations are done, and the individual with the presidential and has already received the appointment ALSO RECEIVES A MOC NOMINATION, the academy will change that person's nomination. They still get the appointment; but the academy can/does sometimes change their nomination to the MOC's so they, the academy, can take back the presidential slot and give it to someone of THEIR choosing. Early Appointments are rare, but they do happen. Some states, like ours, keeps an eye on this. My son received an early appointment with a presidential in Oct 2007. MOC nominations hadn't even happened yet. My son, ALO, and MOCs decided that the MOC WOULDN'T give him a nomination; this way he still has the appointment with the presidential, and the state got the slot for someone else. The next year, the MOC/ALO FORGOT. We had another individual with an early appointment with presidential, but by April, the presidential slot was removed from his APPOINTMENT, and the MOC nomination was used. This way the academy could use the presidential nomination for someone they wanted, who was eligible for a presidential, but didn't receive a MOC nomination.

    It's definitely a complicated game. But NO, the academy didn't/isn't do/doing anything against the law.
     
  17. usna1985

    usna1985 USNA Alumnus

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    First, for USNA at least, the "wait list" is very different than the "national pool." The national pool is where MOC nominees who don't get the MOC's slot go and compete against each other on a national basis for an appointment. One might have to "wait" but I'm not sure the wait is that much longer than those who are getting the MOC slots. Depends on how speedy the MOC is, whether a principal nom is involved, and -- if not -- how quickly USNA slots the candidate.

    The "wait list" consists of those who, on April 15 have not been offered an appointment or a turndown but instead are placed on a "wait list." If more appointees than expected turn down their appointments, USNA will offer appointments to those on the wait list.

    In fairness to the SAs, sometimes by the time an appointee turns down his/her appointment, there is no one left on the wait list from that MOC's slate. To make that possible, there would have to be literally 535+ people waitlisted -- and that's not feasible. Remember that decisions aren't required until May 1 and everyone not appointed or on the wait list by April 15 has received a turndown. So, if the MOC's appointee turned down the appointment and no one on the waitlist is from that slate, USNA doesn't have much choice but to leave the slot vacant.

    In any event, I'm sure this is WAY more than the OP ever wanted to hear on this subject.:eek:

    For candidates and their families, it may give you some comfort to understand how the system works. However, in the end, all you can do is your very best to secure a nom from each of your MOCs and then hope you receive an appointment. How you are "slotted" is really irrelevant once you have an appointment in hand. It's a bookkeeping issue that is required by the law but is something you can't control and that has relatively little bearing on your application process.
     
  18. Christcorp

    Christcorp Member

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    usna1985. The Air force "Wait List" is the same way. It's the part of the "National Pool" that is waiting for those who will turn it down. We are the same.

    I mentioned it the way I did so as to not have the OP believe that there was a separate "Wait List" for their MOC's slate of 10. I.e. If someone turns down an appointment, that the other 9 from that slate was where the replacement would come from. That's between the academy and the MOC. The wait list is just like yours. The extras after april who potentially can receive an appointment if an appointee turns it down.
     
  19. AJM7680

    AJM7680 Banned

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    However, the vast majority of those who have been offered appointments will have accepted them by April 15. If the "wait list" were the same as the "national pool", then all appointments from it would be required to be by order of merit, and, as USNA has pointed out repeatedly, they are not. The only way to bypass this would be specific candidates that are on the wait list to fill specific vacancies. Not all on the wait list are national pool eligible. A very minimally qualified candidate in our town fell into that category this past year. As soon as the principal accepted, USNA informed the waitee that he was no longer on the list.
     
  20. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    For a slate submitted under a "Principal and 9 ranked Alternates" method:

    If the Principal Nominee is not qualified, the academy must appoint #2. (yes, I know you said "declines appointment" and that is different from "not qualified" - just pointing out another scenario) :wink:

     

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