SAT Scores... What's the reality here?

I don't think I said anywhere that you had to have a Varsity Letter in a sport. I was commenting on the poster's post; that it didn't include any sports. It had varsity letters, but they were in JrROTC. That doesn't count as a sport. They may have had a sport and just didn't list it here, but that's what I was commenting on. Matter of fact, if you click on the link in my signature, and look at the USAFA brochure, it gives the stats for cadets. Only 83% actually received Varsity Letter awards for athletics. So while you don't have to have a varsity letter, it helps. But not having ANY SPORTS is a killer. Especially "Team Sports". They want to see physically fit individuals who are also "Team Players". After all; that is 80% of the military team work and physical activity.

Just a point in clarification CC… JrROTC is a class that you can take and you’re correct it is not a sport but most JrROTC units have other things such as Drill Team which is considered a sport… Now I’m not disagreeing with you that it’s not a traditional sport such as softball, football, track, ect. and is therefore look at differently. But it is a sport where you can earn a varsity letter and if you good enough to get Drill Commander or Drill NCO it has a huge upside for leadership (more so than the sports captains but that’s my opinion so take it with a grain of salt)… and as for the physical part they throw a rifle for 2 hours straight and marching around and doing pushups for every rifle dropped no matter who dropped it. Now is it football of course not but it’s still a sport.

Now to CC’s point most people coming here are asking how to MAXIMIZE their application you need to listen to him. I have pages and pages of his post saved of to refer back to:thumb:… Basically control the things you can control and just watch the others and most importantly do the things that will make you happy… don’t run track if you’re going to hate it because ywhen people interview you they can tell your level on excitement/commitment and if you were doing it just to check a box.
 
I could be (and probably am) wrong but I don't think the SAT is given in May. As I recall last year the last time you could take it before the end of Summer/Fall was in June. Also the scores go directly from College Board to the USAFA and I'm not sure whether they consider SAT scores on you transcript as "official"....even if a May SAT test managed to get reported to the high school in time to make the transcript.
I can actually state that as a fact for the Senator's also. DD sent the school transcipt assuming (all knows what that means) that it was enough for them to have the scores on the transcipt and they said they don't look at the scores on the transcript they want it directly reported from the SAT Board. Not sure about the AFA but I assume they are the same. Does it matter if it is still on the high school transcript? Does it count for more if it is still on the transcript? I don't understand.
 
Here is the class profile of the class of 2014. (Last year's entering class; this year's freshman)

http://paulryan.house.gov/UploadedFiles/USAFA_2014.pdf

SAT average math is: 666 verbal is: 640. ACT is 29.7 english; 30.3 math; 30.3 reading; 29.7 science. Bottom line is that you really need to push past that to be competitive. And with 12,000 applicants per year, the scores don't really change.
Thank you Mike, that is really helpful. DD had a book but that was pretty outdated it seems although very interesting.
 
Try the ACT, many people I have talked to feel that the SAT is more difficult.
Also, some people just have difficulty taking tests. I have a friend with a great GPA and extracurricular involvement but low test score. He has taken the ACT three times and done numerous classes to help improve his score, but his score still isnt great.
 
Booze; technically you are correct, but that is a "School" decision. Not every school gives letters fo JrROTC. Each school has their own pre-requisites. Our high school has letters for academics, Band, IB, sports, etc... And as far as "Drill" counting as a sport; that again is a local high school decision.

What matters is what the ACADEMY considers to be a sport. And for a lack of better description, it's the stereotype meaning of what a sport is. Track, swimming, football, baseball, lacrosse, basketball, and any other stereotype you would consider to be a "Sport". Marching band is great, and you can get a letter in it and compete against other schools. But it's not considered a sport as far as the academy goes. Same with your drill team. Your school can call it anything they want to, but it's what the academy calls it that matters.

And don't get me wrong, i'm not dissing any of these activities. I was in band, chorus, boy scouts, as well as many other activities. Along with playing traditional sports. And there's also some individuals who didn't have traditional sports that still received an appointment. Especially those that were home schooled or went to a private school that didn't offer organized sports. Some did martial arts. Some did city league soccer.

Point is; do not rely on a varsity letter for JrROTC drill team, honor guard, marching band, etc... to be considered a sport by the academy. It doesn't matter what you or I think; it's what the academy things. And we all know what "SPORTS" is, when it comes to traditional thinking. That is what you want to have on your resume. Good luck everyone. Mike.....

Just a point in clarification CC… JrROTC is a class that you can take and you’re correct it is not a sport but most JrROTC units have other things such as Drill Team which is considered a sport… Now I’m not disagreeing with you that it’s not a traditional sport such as softball, football, track, ect. and is therefore look at differently. But it is a sport where you can earn a varsity letter and if you good enough to get Drill Commander or Drill NCO it has a huge upside for leadership (more so than the sports captains but that’s my opinion so take it with a grain of salt)… and as for the physical part they throw a rifle for 2 hours straight and marching around and doing pushups for every rifle dropped no matter who dropped it. Now is it football of course not but it’s still a sport.

Now to CC’s point most people coming here are asking how to MAXIMIZE their application you need to listen to him. I have pages and pages of his post saved of to refer back to:thumb:… Basically control the things you can control and just watch the others and most importantly do the things that will make you happy… don’t run track if you’re going to hate it because ywhen people interview you they can tell your level on excitement/commitment and if you were doing it just to check a box.
 
i agree with the several posters who said to hire a tutor. And take the ACT. we paid for the 1 on 1 test prep at one of the "big name" SAT prep companies. he took the SAT 4 times unofficially at the center before he actually took the official SAT. each time they figure out what your child is weak in, where they are improving, not improving etc... they also had him work on vocabulary. You get one on one help with what you are weak in. they also advised him towards the end on which type questions to skip because he typically would have trouble with a particular type of question. In the SAT you get penalized for getting a question wrong. By the time he took the official test he had the stamina and had learned how to take the test. when you are not used to it it can be exhausting to take the SAT.

Tutoring is expensive but it pays off not only if you get into an academy but also for merit based scholarships at plan b, c and d; not to mention ROTC. A $70,000. scholarship for 4 years plus AF ROTC scholarship pays for tuition at plan B private school.

The tutoring also helped with regard to the ACT's because the material tested is the same but the format of the tests is different. DS did better on the ACT's but still hit mean on the SAT's. DS also had academics, sports, leadership, volunteer, and great other extras. Received a LOA and accepted an appointment so it more than paid off for him. now just like all the other appointees he will be just a basic cadet and in a way starting over building his CV.

Good Luck!
Just be careful where you get your tutor from. Our experience unfortunately was not as good. My DD ended up in a group of kids who were a lot younger and not there for the SAT at all. Than I called and fussed about that it got a little better but she never received one-on-one. I paid over $900 for 36 hrs and DD barely improved by 30 pts wheras when she did her own studying she improved a total of 60. Still nothing to write home about but it is sad she did better on her own. All I am saying please be careful and don't get burned like we did :-(
 
Booze; technically you are correct, but that is a "School" decision. Not every school gives letters fo JrROTC. Each school has their own pre-requisites. Our high school has letters for academics, Band, IB, sports, etc... And as far as "Drill" counting as a sport; that again is a local high school decision.

What matters is what the ACADEMY considers to be a sport. And for a lack of better description, it's the stereotype meaning of what a sport is. Track, swimming, football, baseball, lacrosse, basketball, and any other stereotype you would consider to be a "Sport". Marching band is great, and you can get a letter in it and compete against other schools. But it's not considered a sport as far as the academy goes. Same with your drill team. Your school can call it anything they want to, but it's what the academy calls it that matters.

And don't get me wrong, i'm not dissing any of these activities. I was in band, chorus, boy scouts, as well as many other activities. Along with playing traditional sports. And there's also some individuals who didn't have traditional sports that still received an appointment. Especially those that were home schooled or went to a private school that didn't offer organized sports. Some did martial arts. Some did city league soccer.

Point is; do not rely on a varsity letter for JrROTC drill team, honor guard, marching band, etc... to be considered a sport by the academy. It doesn't matter what you or I think; it's what the academy things. And we all know what "SPORTS" is, when it comes to traditional thinking. That is what you want to have on your resume. Good luck everyone. Mike.....

Once again CC excellent point! :thumb: It is what the Academy think not the local school and this is why I have all your stuff on file :shake: I was looking at it from the local level not the Academy’s point of view!
 
I just recently received my appointment to class of 2015, and my advice would be to take the test as many times as it takes. I took the test 5 times and it wasn't until my 5th attempt that I got my critical reading score within range. I was able to submit the score one day before the deadlinw. I had already received a prep school appt. in January, and sure enough after submitting the new score in February I received my appt. a few days ago, so retake it as many times as you need and focus on 1 subject each time because you can pull all of your highest scores for the academy.
 
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Let me ask a question. "NOT TO SOUND FACETIOUS". Are you considering moving? Are you thinking about: "Where should I move to, to improve the chances of my son/daughter getting a nomination"? If the answer is No; you don't plan on moving; then does it really matter how competitive your district or state is? Is there anything you can do once you know how competitive your district/state is?

Again; I'm not trying to sound facetious, but many applicants and their parents, spend way too much time on things that they have little to no affect on, instead concentrating their efforts into providing the BEST application possible. If you discovered that your district state had "Average" applicants applying; with 3.8gpa, 1800 SAT, 29 ACT, etc..., would you then decide that because you had a 31ACT and 1900SAT and 3.9 gpa that you "Didn't have to take the SAT/ACT again; or take that AP Chemistry class; because you're already "HIGHER" than the district/state's average??? I would hope not!!

It doesn't matter if you are competing against 1 other person in your district/state or 250 other applicants. You can only control what is directly relevant to you. Your GPA; your SAT/ACT; your leadership activities; your athletic involvement; your physical fitness. Concentrate on what you have control over. Concentrate on submitting the very best application that YOU CAN SUBMIT. Not what others have. Be the best that you can be. Then, have backup choices and options in your basket. ROTC, Civilian Colleges, etc...

There is NO LIST that says: "These are competitive districts/states". But it's pretty obvious which ones are "MORE COMPETITIVE" than others. If you live in an area that is physically close to an Air Force base or military installation, it is going to be more competitive, because there's going to be more interest in the military. If you live in a highly populated district and state, that too is going to be more competitive, simply because you can only compete for a nomination in your district or state. Most districts have the same amount of people, but the state still only has 2 senators. One state has 500,000 people for 2 senators and another state has 10,000,000 people for 2 senators.

Also; the political "Tone" of a district will also tell you if it's competitive. Military service tends to be more conservative in nature. So; an applicant to a military academy in the Berkly or San Fransisco area is probably a lot LESS competitive, because most people in that area aren't as interested. Also; districts that are very "Exclusive". Meaning; wealthy people live there; tends to be less competitive. These people have a much easier time paying for college. And contrary to what some people think, not everyone applies to the academies because they want to serve their country. Many do it because it's "Free College".

Anyway; there's a lot of "IF's" here. But what's most important is; unless you plan of MOVING specifically to a less competitive district/state, then it doesn't matter how competitive it is. Concentrate on the things you CAN CONTROL; not the things you have no control over. Work on your grades, sports, leadership, tests, etc.... Sorry if it's not really what you wanted to hear, but how competitive your district/state are is totally irrelevant. Best of luck. Mike....

Mike,

This is right on the money, however, I disagree with the fair part from your previous post. I pay taxes the same as someone from North Dakota pays taxes, so I don't really get the just because you're from a low population state you get extra consideration for an appt. USAFA is paid out of federal funds not state funds, therefore they should take the best candidates nationwide. Also, the academies loses cadets to academics every year and you can directly correlate this to there entry scores. Wasting money on cadets that can't make it through. Bottom line is that this is the way the academies make there selections so it is what it is, however I think they need to progress to taking the best possible candidates. JMHO.
 
Mike,

This is right on the money, however, I disagree with the fair part from your previous post. I pay taxes the same as someone from North Dakota pays taxes, so I don't really get the just because you're from a low population state you get extra consideration for an appt. USAFA is paid out of federal funds not state funds, therefore they should take the best candidates nationwide. Also, the academies loses cadets to academics every year and you can directly correlate this to there entry scores. Wasting money on cadets that can't make it through. Bottom line is that this is the way the academies make there selections so it is what it is, however I think they need to progress to taking the best possible candidates. JMHO.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Half the class is represented by MOCs;. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. One state has 30 representatives and another has 2 representative. The larger state has 30 slots, the other state 2. Each state has 2 senators. That means each state has 2 more slots. If it's good enough for the electoral college, it's good enough for academy slots.

1/3rd of the remaining slots to the academy are Military Affiliated. Presidential nominees, medal of honor, ROTC/JrROTC, Prior Enlisted, etc... Sorry; but this is a very small concession to make for men and women who have served this country. You're not GIVING away slots; it's still competitive; you're just giving them their own slate. Sorry, but this one is not negotiable or even up for debate. It's one of the very least that we can do for our military men and women.

So that leaves about 300-500 in the national pool to fill the remaining slots. You're telling me that you don't believe in diversity. It shouldn't matter if a person grew up with only one parent, they shouldn't get any extra consideration. Or that they grew up in the inner city, they shouldn't get any extra consideration. Or that they had to work a full time job to support their mom and brothers/sisters. Or that they were a first generation legal immigrant to our country; or the first in their family to go to college. Sorry, but I wish that every child in America had the opportunity to go to the best schools, with the best teachers, had parents that loved them and supported them, helped them take SAT/ACT prep classes, and all the other advantages. Unfortunately, that simply isn't real life. And I personally will take the individual who had to fight, claw, bite, etc... to get a 3.75 gpa and 28ACT and 1800SAT, while at the same time working 40 hours a week to support her/his unemployed single mom, 2 sisters and 1 brother. Who didn't have a chance to play high school sports and only could do summer baseball; or even time to go out for the class play.

Well again, we'll have to agree to disagree. The real world and the real military isn't a bunch of people with the exact same backgrounds and same opportunities and experiences. The one thing that makes the United States so good, is the Melting Pot characteristic. That we weren't some superior race trying to have control. And in our military; those that are superior and in command, need to have that same diverse representation.

Unfortunately, many people will see this as unfair. Well guess what. Life isn't fair. Nor is it suppose to be. That's called socialism. I really wish I had the basketball skills of Michael Jordan. I wish I had the money of Bill Gates. But those are individuals, with individual talents. The academies do a fantastic job at balancing their appointments. It's not like: "ooo you're black; you're in..." or "You're a girl.,... You're in". "oooo you're from south dakota, and we don't have many from south dakota..... you're in". It doesn't work that way. Each candidate has a WCS. You've heard that enough times. And EVERYTHING about your self gets points. You get points for how high your gpa is. Your SAT/ACT. Your CFA scores. Your volunteer time. Your extra curricular activities. Your leadership involvement. Where you live. Your economic status. Your gender. Your race. Your worldly experiences. Your family's history.

Basically; you're not getting an appointment if you aren't qualified. That's why I insist that you're wrong when you say that the cadets the academy loses each year academically, correlates directly to their entrance scores. That's simply not true. You don't remember "Mars Boy". He was the individual that had everything in the package. And he was going to be the first cadet to go to Mars. That was his goal. He; like many others; came to the academy at or above the average in academics. YET, he was kicked out for academics. He couldn't cut it. Also; while there's a lot of people who think the JOCKS (Intercollegiate Athletes) have the lowest scores, but are brought in because of their sports and given extra consideration. Well let me tell you that sports, athletes, college, etc... have their own world of publicity, national academics, pride, etc... In other words, college sports is big business, but it's also high recognition. Air Force academy ranked #2 in the country in Student Athletes grades and success. Behind #1 Rutgers. And besides Mars boy, I can tell you right now, that there are plenty of cadets who get kicked out for academics, who started out of high school with VERY HIGH GPA's and test scores. You might think that we lose a lot academically that shouldn't have been there; but you'd be wrong. The numbers simply don't support it.

This is a tough time of year. A lot of people who don't receive appointments, and they don't understand why. Some are simply in denial. I've seen some of their scores and it's like: "You REALLY THOUGHT you should get an appointment". But there are some that simply had others ahead of them. I know you think everyone should be in the Same Big POOL and the top 1100+/- get an appointment. Sorry; it can't be that way. If you don't understand by the last page of my writing, then you'll have to do some research. While you're at it, check with Harvard, Yales, Princeton, Stanford, Brown,... IBM, Intel Microsoft, Motorola, Ratheon, and just about every other college, university, and large business, and ask them why they don't admit or hire just the "Best" on their list of applicants. Maybe it's because they've learned over time that artificial test scores don't tell you everything about a person.

Anyway; we will agree to disagree. This topic comes up every year. Every year it gets more discouraging trying to explain it. Some here have given up in trying. I still have some fight left. Some simply say: "If you don't like it, go call your congressman. It's federal law. Get them to change it". bla bla bla. I try not to take that course. I can tell you, that after 21 years in the Air Force, diversity is a good thing. As Long as the individuals in question are "Qualified". And I honestly believe that every individual who receives an appointment to the academy is qualified. The thing is, there's initially 12,000+ applicants. There's about 3000-4000 that are TOTALLY QUALIFIED to come to the academy. You're debating scores that are fractions of a point different between someone who receives an appointment and someone who didn't. Anyway; don't know what to tell you. We aren't just losing people academically who "Shouldn't have been there". I can show you people every day at the academy who is/was/will be on academic probation, who came to the academy with a 3.80-4.00 gpa out of high school. Anyway; good luck to you. mike....
 
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My scores from 10th grade
PSAT math= 58, ACT math=31

Now
ACT Math= 35

SAT= not taking it again

My family cannot afford test prep classes; I studied/prepared from test prep books. Also, I am not a straight A student.
 
There is NO LIST that says: "These are competitive districts/states". But it's pretty obvious which ones are "MORE COMPETITIVE" than others. If you live in an area that is physically close to an Air Force base or military installation, it is going to be more competitive, because there's going to be more interest in the military. If you live in a highly populated district and state, that too is going to be more competitive, simply because you can only compete for a nomination in your district or state. Most districts have the same amount of people, but the state still only has 2 senators. One state has 500,000 people for 2 senators and another state has 10,000,000 people for 2 senators.

Also; the political "Tone" of a district will also tell you if it's competitive. Military service tends to be more conservative in nature. So; an applicant to a military academy in the Berkly or San Fransisco area is probably a lot LESS competitive, because most people in that area aren't as interested. Also; districts that are very "Exclusive". Meaning; wealthy people live there; tends to be less competitive. ...

Christcorp: this was very helpful. Just curiosity that spurred the question -- never a question of moving. Thank you.
 
What about MoC's and Super Scoring?

I would imagine MoCs DO NOT super score. If DS is getting nomination application in by summer's end, and has not so great SAT scores from spring (took March, taking ACT April, taking SAT May), does he have a chance to resubmit better scores in fall? He must put something down on the app, correct?
 
Each MOC is different--some will want the complete package submitted all at once, others may let you update. I would check each of their websites for their nomination specifics, although it may still be a little early and not all will have info for next year out yet. For my son, I believe 2 MOC's wanted the actual report sent from SAT/ACT directly (no updates allowed so we just sent the best one overall), while the other just took the scores off of his official HS transcript and didn't require a report. Depending on how your son scores on the tests he is taking in April/May, your son could finish his nomination application packet in the summer but hold off on submitting until closer to the MOC deadline in the fall if he wants to retake the ACT/SAT in the fall. There is no benefit from submitting a MOC nomination packet early other than just knowing that step is complete and being able to focus on other parts of applying to the academy.
 
FutCandMom....my daughter submitted her nomination packet in May to our congressman...and in September to our Senator. Both let her add her latest SAT scores from the October test. Interviews were done in November.
 
Just be careful where you get your tutor from. Our experience unfortunately was not as good. My DD ended up in a group of kids who were a lot younger and not there for the SAT at all. Than I called and fussed about that it got a little better but she never received one-on-one. I paid over $900 for 36 hrs and DD barely improved by 30 pts wheras when she did her own studying she improved a total of 60. Still nothing to write home about but it is sad she did better on her own. All I am saying please be careful and don't get burned like we did :-(

I very specifically said 1 on 1 tutoring. what you are talking about is the group classes that are offered by prep programs. Some of the them have programs where you supposedly get one on one combined with the classes. BIG difference! that was why we paid the extra money for the individual attention only. so as to avoid the situation your dd had. He set up appointements and had several hours a week over 2 months of individual, in a separate area from everyone else tutoring. we went with a test prep program because DS did not need subject tutoring; he needed test tutoring. But i do agree that you need to do your homework when picking a place - other parents whose kids were older were a great help. they said the same thing you did about the group/combo classes.
 
Will ACT+ Writing vs SAT scores be viewed equally?

USAFA does not use the ACT writing score currently. Some of the other service academies do require it though. And yes ACT scores are converted to SAT scores and viewed equally. It is best to take both ACT and SAT as candidates tend to score differently on them.
 
Concerned here as well...DS math score (680) is ok, but reading (580) and writing (570) are low. Will retake in May (will be returning from AFA Summer seminar for June SAT date). Strong GPA (3.98) and very strong EC, sports, and community service. He'll keep plugging away and get those reading/writing scores up. I believe the math scores should be in the mid 600's ...he should be OK with that one, right?

The academies like math the most, so it's great that he has a good math score. Get him to read some real books over the summer, that will probably up his reading and writing score.
 
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